8 Sean Couturier
19 Luca Sbisa
22 Claude Giroux
29 Steve Downie
11 Jeff Carter
24 Mike Richards
Yep. It's easy to cherry pick to support any argument, but if we are arguing top 5 picks vs. later picks, let me play, too:
1. Sidney Crosby
1. Alex Ovechkin
1. Patrick Kane
1. John Tavares
1. Steven Stamkos
2. Tyler Seguin
2. Bobby Ryan
2. Evgeni Malkin
2. Drew Doughty
2. Eric Staal
3. Matt Duchene
3. Jonathan Toews
3. Nathan Horton
4. Evander Kane
5. Brayden Schenn
5. Thomas Vanek
5. Phil Kessel
5. Carey Price
Look at how few first or second picks overall Detroit has. And yet, the consistently ice a competitive team. Pavel Datsyuk was drafted in the 6th round hehehe
Edm have a few top picks, and yet Eberle is arguably their best player. He was drafted 22nd overall lol
Too many posters think the Leafs could pick top 2 for a few drafts and suddenly become great. Not the way it works. You have to draft well, wheel and deal, pick up the odd UFA, and have a great coach. That makes a team competitive.
Edit: Oh, and most important. You need goaltending. I was saying last summer, this season lives and dies on the Leafs goaltending. And it has.
I believe you don't have to trade anymore, with the advent of U F A's, trading is the least important part in building. There was a time when it was the only way to get a player but that's not the case anymore. Now if you truly have an over abundance of talent in one position, it may be necessary. Otherwise you can probably use the guy your about to trade away.
Yep. It's easy to cherry pick to support any argument, but if we are arguing top 5 picks vs. later picks, let me play, too:
1. Sidney Crosby
1. Alex Ovechkin
1. Patrick Kane
1. John Tavares
1. Steven Stamkos
2. Tyler Seguin
2. Bobby Ryan
2. Evgeni Malkin
2. Drew Doughty
2. Eric Staal
3. Matt Duchene
3. Jonathan Toews
3. Nathan Horton
4. Evander Kane
5. Brayden Schenn
5. Thomas Vanek
5. Phil Kessel
5. Carey Price
Unfortunately, that isn't what you and I are debating, we're debating the notion of "lightning in a bottle". You call it cherry picking, I call it looking at the history of the most successful teams in the league. How do you think teams like Detroit, NJ, San Jose, Boston, NYR stack up? Go ahead.....show me all their top 5 picks.
Every time I hear the Detroit reference, it makes me laugh.
"Look where Datsyuk and Zetterberg were picked." Yeah, like Detroit was the ONLY team that had heard of these two and they were so convinced they were going to be superstars, that they waited until the seventh round to get Zetterberg. In fact, the Wings knew he was so good and that no one else had ever heard of him that they took Jari Tolsa, Andrei Maximenko and Kent McDonnell in the rounds before him.
No, it is what it is. The Red Wings got lucky and uncovered two gems late in the draft. Just like Gilmour, Fleury, Konstantinov, Hull, Larmer, Dave Taylor, etc.... For every Zetterberg and Datsyuk, I'll give you ten Crosbys, Ovechkins, Stamkos, Duchenes that were picked in the top few.
And, yes, Eberle is a fantastic hockey player picked 22nd, but do you not think he is also helped alone by Hall, RNH and Gagner (all top six picks, two of them #1 overall)? (and yes, that goes both ways, I concur) Do you think he would score 30 with this Leaf team?
No one is arguing that a player cannot be drafed later and turn into a star. That is why they have multiple rounds at the draft. But, again, do you not think the ODDS of drafting a superstar in the top five as opposed to, say, 22, are greatly enhanced. You can twist things to you support an argument any way you want, but the facts don't lie.
Ok, using Detroit as my example then, forget that they've found some gems in the late rounds. Explain why they've been competitive for the last 3 forevers without ever drafting at the top. They haven't picked in the top 10 since 1991. 1990 they picked third, and 1986 they picked first. All other picks are "crapshoot" picks. And yet they are successful year in and year out. And have won 4 Cups since 1996.
Building a team doesn't mean tanking for the first or second overall. It's about drafting well (smartly instead of just aiming low), making smart trades, signing FAs (smarlty) and having a great coach.
This team will not win a Cup just because we fail for Nail. Yes, if his brain isn't mush and he doesn't become a bust, he could be an elite player, but like so many teams with elite players, we'll get nowhere without all the other pieces needed for success. All those pieces are needed, one elite talent isn't (but it sure is nice).
Anyone think Kessel isn't elite yet? Need another season to make your minds?
Nail will not get this team into the play-offs next season. Signing a decent, consistent goaltender will, along with great coaching (god I hope Carlyle fits the bill) and some great team play.
If they Leafs fall far enough to draft high, it will take the sting out of a disaster of a season for sure. But I'm not cheering for losses. If we draft in the 7-10 range, then it's up to the scouts and GM to get us a gem, like Detroit does so consistently.
Unfortunately, that isn't what you and I are debating, we're debating the notion of "lightning in a bottle". You call it cherry picking, I call it looking at the history of the most successful teams in the league. How do you think teams like Detroit, NJ, San Jose, Boston, NYR stack up? Go ahead.....show me all their top 5 picks.
San Jose? Rangers? What have they won recently? Why didn't you put Pittsburgh in there? Crosby, Malkin and Fleury don't apply to this exercise?
Well, no, that isn't what we are arguing. We aren't talking about shoring up your draft team with FA signings. My argument is you are more likely ton get a superstar in the top 5 as opposed to later in the first round, or the latter rounds altogether. You listed a bunch of players picked later in the first round. I did the same. From a superstar perspective, a guy you can build your team around, which list do you want to choose from?
I'm not saying you can't get a great player later in the round. I am saying your odds of getting a franchise player are greater earlier in the draft. It's not rocket science. It's what draft rankings are for....
Ok, using Detroit as my example then, forget that they've found some gems in the late rounds. Explain why they've been competitive for the last 3 forevers without ever drafting at the top. They haven't picked in the top 10 since 1991. 1990 they picked third, and 1986 they picked first. All other picks are "crapshoot" picks. And yet they are successful year in and year out. And have won 4 Cups since 1996.
Building a team doesn't mean tanking for the first or second overall. It's about drafting well (smartly instead of just aiming low), making smart trades, signing FAs (smarlty) and having a great coach.
This team will not win a Cup just because we fail for Nail. Yes, if his brain isn't mush and he doesn't become a bust, he could be an elite player, but like so many teams with elite players, we'll get nowhere without all the other pieces needed for success. All those pieces are needed, one elite talent isn't (but it sure is nice).
Anyone think Kessel isn't elite yet? Need another season to make your minds?
Nail will not get this team into the play-offs next season. Signing a decent, consistent goaltender will, along with great coaching (god I hope Carlyle fits the bill) and some great team play.
If they Leafs fall far enough to draft high, it will take the sting out of a disaster of a season for sure. But I'm not cheering for losses. If we draft in the 7-10 range, then it's up to the scouts and GM to get us a gem, like Detroit does so consistently.
Well, with this I completely agree. I mean, the Wings weren't hurt by having Yzerman, a drafted player that happens to be one of the greatest leaders ever. That said, they have added fantastic free agents to supplement the team, but the team was always built around Stevie Y and Lidstrom. They were the leaders. So, yes, we agree.
You're right, Nail isn't going to get us into the playoffs, but can you picture this team with Nail (example only)Colborne, Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin, Ashton, etc... a few years from now? At this point, it's all about building for the future, right? That is what we are looking forward to with the kids? Well, why not cheer for a blue-chip prospect to add to this list? As for the FA front, it's not about signing FAs, it's about signing the right ones. To that end, Burke hasn't done a great job. On the trade front, difference story: I think he pillaged Calgary, Anaheim and Boston (on the Kabs deal).
I think we are both agreeing on a lot of points. It's just how to go about getting there at this point in time......
San Jose? Rangers? What have they won recently? Why didn't you put Pittsburgh in there? Crosby, Malkin and Fleury don't apply to this exercise?
Well, no, that isn't what we are arguing. We aren't talking about shoring up your draft team with FA signings. My argument is you are more likely ton get a superstar in the top 5 as opposed to later in the first round, or the latter rounds altogether. You listed a bunch of players picked later in the first round. I did the same. From a superstar perspective, a guy you can build your team around, which list do you want to choose from?
I'm not saying you can't get a great player later in the round. I am saying your odds of getting a franchise player are greater earlier in the draft. It's not rocket science. It's what draft rankings are for....
To be honest, Boston and NYR don't necessarily belong either. Why? Because we're showing how with some teams, it is quite evidently a long term thing (not "lightning in a bottle" as you would suggest).
Yes, it is what WE (you and I) are debating as it is the only part of your line of thinking I took issue with. Several perennial contenders never need lottery picks to get good players. The question isn't "which list would I prefer to choose from", the question is "which methodology would I prefer for long term success". Personally, I choose consistently picking well no matter where you pick over not consistently picking well and hoping to be both bad enough and lucky enough to have a ball turn in my favour.
their best prospect, without a doubt, eberle atm, was picked at 22nd overall.
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't think Eberle is the best right now, but it's foolish to say he's the best prospect of them. RNH and Hall are producing at nearly a PPG pace at ages that Eberle was still in the minors for.
Well, with this I completely agree. I mean, the Wings weren't hurt by having Yzerman, a drafted player that happens to be one of the greatest leaders ever. That said, they have added fantastic free agents to supplement the team, but the team was always built around Stevie Y and Lidstrom. They were the leaders. So, yes, we agree.
You're right, Nail isn't going to get us into the playoffs, but can you picture this team with Nail (example only)Colborne, Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin, Ashton, etc... a few years from now? At this point, it's all about building for the future, right? That is what we are looking forward to with the kids? Well, why not cheer for a blue-chip prospect to add to this list? As for the FA front, it's not about signing FAs, it's about signing the right ones. To that end, Burke hasn't done a great job. On the trade front, difference story: I think he pillaged Calgary, Anaheim and Boston (on the Kabs deal).
I think we are both agreeing on a lot of points. It's just how to go about getting there at this point in time......
I've noticed that most of what you post I can agree with. The only point we don't see eye to eye on, is cheering for a blue chip prospect to add to the team. I see that as cheering for this team to lose games. Not a game, not some games, but as many as possible. I can't. I don't think I can cheer for this team to lose one game, let alone many. I see the draft position as a reflection of how the season went. The better the position, the worse the season. It takes the sting out of watching a losing season.
I would love for the Leafs to draft first, second or even third. But you don't have to lose all your games to do that. GMs do trade talent for picks. Look at Boston, they drafted second overall, after a very successful season
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't think Eberle is the best right now, but it's foolish to say he's the best prospect of them. RNH and Hall are producing at nearly a PPG pace at ages that Eberle was still in the minors for.
difference is the development that oilers did for them, which I preach for this team fanbase and finally burke is doing. letting them take their sweet time.
each prospect has their own timeline to hit the bigs, and even in my eyes RNH should have taken an extra year just to develop his physical side.
difference is the development that oilers did for them, which I preach for this team fanbase and finally burke is doing. letting them take their sweet time.
each prospect has their own timeline to hit the bigs, and even in my eyes RNH should have taken an extra year just to develop his physical side.
I would have agreed with you before the start of this year, but RNH has proven time and time again that he can handle the physicality of the NHL, and can even deliver on occasion (33 hits in 55 games)
Even his injury wasn't caused by physical play, but catching a rut in the ice and falling awkwardly into the boards with nobody else around. Freak incident.
Well, with this I completely agree. I mean, the Wings weren't hurt by having Yzerman, a drafted player that happens to be one of the greatest leaders ever. That said, they have added fantastic free agents to supplement the team, but the team was always built around Stevie Y and Lidstrom. They were the leaders. So, yes, we agree.
You're right, Nail isn't going to get us into the playoffs, but can you picture this team with Nail (example only)Colborne, Kadri, Gardiner, Frattin, Ashton, etc... a few years from now? At this point, it's all about building for the future, right? That is what we are looking forward to with the kids? Well, why not cheer for a blue-chip prospect to add to this list? As for the FA front, it's not about signing FAs, it's about signing the right ones. To that end, Burke hasn't done a great job. On the trade front, difference story: I think he pillaged Calgary, Anaheim and Boston (on the Kabs deal).
I think we are both agreeing on a lot of points. It's just how to go about getting there at this point in time......
Nothing against Stevie Y, he was one of the best but he was drafted in 1983 and Wings did not win the Cup till 1997. Now that is the quintessential slow, patient, traditional rebuild through the draft.
One of the stupidest posts in the history of HF and there has been many over the years.
Not all of us are delusional leemings like you.
Ever since Burke got here he doesn't even know how to lose properly, like how about benching the over paid underperforming losers he brought in here and assigning all the ice time to younger players. He won't do it because of his fat EGO he wants to win utterly meaningless games to keep his stubborn pride inflated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
They need to loose all their games and deliver a top 3 pick
Call up 4th liners from echl who will be over their head here in the nhl
Every win is aslap in the face to the die hard faithful leaf fans
You'd be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't think Eberle is the best right now, but it's foolish to say he's the best prospect of them. RNH and Hall are producing at nearly a PPG pace at ages that Eberle was still in the minors for.
Also eberle is playing with hall and rnh I don't think its coincidence that his production has started to increase after adding a talent like rnh
Ok, using Detroit as my example then, forget that they've found some gems in the late rounds. Explain why they've been competitive for the last 3 forevers without ever drafting at the top. They haven't picked in the top 10 since 1991. 1990 they picked third, and 1986 they picked first. All other picks are "crapshoot" picks. And yet they are successful year in and year out. And have won 4 Cups since 1996.
Building a team doesn't mean tanking for the first or second overall. It's about drafting well (smartly instead of just aiming low), making smart trades, signing FAs (smarlty) and having a great coach.
This team will not win a Cup just because we fail for Nail. Yes, if his brain isn't mush and he doesn't become a bust, he could be an elite player, but like so many teams with elite players, we'll get nowhere without all the other pieces needed for success. All those pieces are needed, one elite talent isn't (but it sure is nice).
Anyone think Kessel isn't elite yet? Need another season to make your minds?
Nail will not get this team into the play-offs next season. Signing a decent, consistent goaltender will, along with great coaching (god I hope Carlyle fits the bill) and some great team play.
If they Leafs fall far enough to draft high, it will take the sting out of a disaster of a season for sure. But I'm not cheering for losses. If we draft in the 7-10 range, then it's up to the scouts and GM to get us a gem, like Detroit does so consistently.
This is exactly what I have said in other threads. It's right on the mark. I want the Leafs to follow the Detroit model and not the Edmonton model!!!
Edmonton may get a championship, but, will they be able to keep all those young guns ala Chicago?
Nothing against Stevie Y, he was one of the best but he was drafted in 1983 and Wings did not win the Cup till 1997. Now that is the quintessential slow, patient, traditional rebuild through the draft.
Right, but, no offense that isn't my point. I said he was the guy they built their team around. He was their leader, even in those early 90s years when the team was still a contender but didn't win the Cup.
Let's not forget, the Wings were a league heavyweight for the five years prior to that '97 win.
Ever since Burke got here he doesn't even know how to lose properly, like how about benching the over paid underperforming losers he brought in here and assigning all the ice time to younger players. He won't do it because of his fat EGO he wants to win utterly meaningless games to keep his stubborn pride inflated.
I don't think there is any need to reply to this, it speaks volumes all by itself.
Ever since Burke got here he doesn't even know how to lose properly, like how about benching the over paid underperforming losers he brought in here and assigning all the ice time to younger players. He won't do it because of his fat EGO he wants to win utterly meaningless games to keep his stubborn pride inflated.
1. Burke doesn't assign ice-time
2. It's the coach that decides who plays, who sits, who gets called up and who goes back down
3. Our young players aren't being called up because in addition to the call-up rules after trade deadline, our young prospects are currently leading the way on the Marlies. They are currently leading their division and are poised for a playoff run with home ice advantage. If you think the development and experience of the prospects who are already in our system should be hindered for the sake of an unknown top draft pick, then hopefully after reading this you'll understand how counterproductive your suggestion is.
