Exactly...people keep saying Iginla has been inconsistent but they forgot the other players are just as bad unless you are talking about the very top players, Gretz, Yzerman, Sakic...
Iginla has been as consistent if not more than Sakic in terms of goal scoring the difference is the assists and alot of this has to do with the difference in team mates. Not saying Sakic is great or anything just that Iginla is a model of consistency.
Iginla has a better career... But he is a sure fire likely first ballot HHOFer. Alfredsson will get in the Hall too eventually. Too good for too long to be ignored.
Iginla was much more hit an miss. For every season that he would look like a top 5 player, he'd follow it up with one where he'd look no better than a typical first liner.
The inconsistent Iginla has 11 straight season with 30 goals+
The inconsistent Iginla has 11 straight season with 30 goals+
Only 7 players in history have done that
Any player can be rendered "consistent" by dropping the bar to a level where streaks and patterns emerge. I am not saying that 11 straight 30 goal seasons is not impressive, but rather what TDMM is referring to is how Iginla's goal totals have fluctuated between the low 30s and the low 50s from year to year, and how his point totals between the 60s and 90s.
His post-lockout year of 2005-06, scoring only 35 goals and 67 points in a season where so many players put up huge offensive years, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the ones around it.
Heh, Iginla hits a fun trivia answer (11 straight 30 goal seasons) and suddenly he's consistent. Considering he's a better goal scorer than playmaker, if he was just a 30 goal scorer, he wouldn't even be in this conversation.
That said, I think the fact that I had to resort to the "inconsistency" argument about Jarome shows that the case for Alfredsson is probably pretty weak
Heh, Iginla hits a fun trivia answer (11 straight 30 goal seasons) and suddenly he's consistent. Considering he's a better goal scorer than playmaker, if he was just a 30 goal scorer, he wouldn't even be in this conversation.
That said, I think the fact that I had to resort to the "inconsistency" argument about Jarome shows that the case for Alfredsson is probably pretty weak
30 goals throught he dead puck era and the post lockout era is actually quite impressive. 30 goals these days means a great deal.
Heh, Iginla hits a fun trivia answer (11 straight 30 goal seasons) and suddenly he's consistent. Considering he's a better goal scorer than playmaker, if he was just a 30 goal scorer, he wouldn't even be in this conversation.
That said, I think the fact that I had to resort to the "inconsistency" argument about Jarome shows that the case for Alfredsson is probably pretty weak
This isn't true at all, he has an elite one timer but he is a very good play maker they are about even. The reason he has 50 goals and 30 goals from year to year has alot to do with his teammates. In 01-02 he had 50 goals with Dean McAmmond and Craig Conroy as line mates neither were legitimate first line players without him.
In 02-03 after his break out year he was no longer catching people by surprise and was played much tougher defensively and he had a "poor" 35 goal year. This year he played with Drury and Gelinas as well as conroy neither was offensively gifted and could not take advantage of the fact that the defense cheated toward Iginla.
This kinda cycle continues his inability to put up huge numbers is almost directly tied to not playing with other first line players unlike many other elite players such as Alfie.
This isn't true at all, he has an elite one timer but he is a very good play maker they are about even. The reason he has 50 goals and 30 goals from year to year has alot to do with his teammates. In 01-02 he had 50 goals with Dean McAmmond and Craig Conroy as line mates neither were legitimate first line players without him.
In 02-03 after his break out year he was no longer catching people by surprise and was played much tougher defensively and he had a "poor" 35 goal year. This year he played with Drury and Gelinas as well as conroy neither was offensively gifted and could not take advantage of the fact that the defense cheated toward Iginla.
This kinda cycle continues his inability to put up huge numbers is almost directly tied to not playing with other first line players unlike many other elite players such as Alfie.
Alfie never played with Elite players until Spezza and Heatley. He almost never was played with Yashin, Havlat, Hossa and so on. He was always the centrepiece of his line with the likes of Smolinski or Todd White. Until post lockout. Even this year he is mostly on the 2nd line with Turris.
Alfie never played with Elite players until Spezza and Heatley. He almost never was played with Yashin, Havlat, Hossa and so on. He was always the centrepiece of his line with the likes of Smolinski or Todd White. Until post lockout. Even this year he is mostly on the 2nd line with Turris.
Sorry I wasn't saying Alfie was a product of his teammates but that it is easier to produce with better teammates. 07-08, 08-09, 09-10 Alfie played the most with Spezza and Heatley/Michalek. Iginla has never had 2 linemates as good as those in his career.
Well, to be fair to Alfredsson, Iginla hasn't played with crap. Iginla's best linemates in his career have been Cammalleri and Tanguay who are top line players on most teams in the NHL. Likewise, Langkow and Juice weren't exactly anchors.
Any player can be rendered "consistent" by dropping the bar to a level where streaks and patterns emerge. I am not saying that 11 straight 30 goal seasons is not impressive, but rather what TDMM is referring to is how Iginla's goal totals have fluctuated between the low 30s and the low 50s from year to year, and how his point totals between the 60s and 90s.
His post-lockout year of 2005-06, scoring only 35 goals and 67 points in a season where so many players put up huge offensive years, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the ones around it.
Look at Calgary's roster that year. I think that should explain it.
Well, to be fair to Alfredsson, Iginla hasn't played with crap. Iginla's best linemates in his career have been Cammalleri and Tanguay who are top line players on most teams in the NHL. Likewise, Langkow and Juice weren't exactly anchors.
This is true but he only had one season with Cammy and this is his second season with Tangs.
When with Tangs he has a ggp of .54 and a ppg of 1.18
When with Cammy he has a ggp of .43 and ppg of 1.1
( I didn't use this season in these calculations )
Clearly when with talent he takes his game to a new level I think this shows that he could be one of the best players if surrounded with talent his entire career.
Not saying Alfie isn't better with talent but it is staggering how much better Iginla is when he has another first line player with him.
His post-lockout year of 2005-06, scoring only 35 goals and 67 points in a season where so many players put up huge offensive years, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the ones around it.
Looking more and more like an abberation especially when you see what he did afterwards. St. Louis did much of the same thing and look what he's done post lockout
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
Heh, Iginla hits a fun trivia answer (11 straight 30 goal seasons) and suddenly he's consistent. Considering he's a better goal scorer than playmaker, if he was just a 30 goal scorer, he wouldn't even be in this conversation.
That said, I think the fact that I had to resort to the "inconsistency" argument about Jarome shows that the case for Alfredsson is probably pretty weak
For the record, Gartner and Jagr hold the record for 15 straight 30+ goal seasons. Amazingly, Jagr still did that during the shortened lockout year in 1994-'95. Gartner's ended then, but he still did north of 30 the next two years.
Bottom line, is that the record those two share I always thought was a very revered record and Iginla is only 4 seasons shy of tying it. If you know going into a season that a guy is going to give you 30+ goals then that should be a good thing to pencil in.
Any player can be rendered "consistent" by dropping the bar to a level where streaks and patterns emerge. I am not saying that 11 straight 30 goal seasons is not impressive, but rather what TDMM is referring to is how Iginla's goal totals have fluctuated between the low 30s and the low 50s from year to year, and how his point totals between the 60s and 90s.
His post-lockout year of 2005-06, scoring only 35 goals and 67 points in a season where so many players put up huge offensive years, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the ones around it.
Consistency isn't really relevant to this discussion considering Alfy's career is littered with ~25 goal, ~70 point seasons. (and worse in injury years)
Anyone who says 30 goals is "dropping the bar to a level where streaks emerge" has no reasoning skills at all or hasn't watched hockey the last 15 years. Same with anyone who calls 35 goals in between 52 and 41 "inconsistent". What bar needs to be reached to be a "consistent" elite scorer? 40? If Jarome had scored 40+ every year he'd be nearing the discussion for top 5 goal scorers of all time.
Consistency isn't really relevant to this discussion considering Alfy's career is littered with ~25 goal, ~70 point seasons. (and worse in injury years)
Anyone who says 30 goals is "dropping the bar to a level where streaks emerge" has no reasoning skills at all or hasn't watched hockey the last 15 years. Same with anyone who calls 35 goals in between 52 and 41 "inconsistent". What bar needs to be reached to be a "consistent" elite scorer? 40? If Jarome had scored 40+ every year he'd be nearing the discussion for top 5 goal scorers of all time.
Funny that someone who apparently doesn't remember "inconsistency" as the main criticism of Iginla accuses others of not watching hockey.
If you want stats:
Alfredsson had 9 straight 70 point seasons with a 4 year peak of 80+ point seasons.
Iginla never had more than 3 70 point seasons in a row despite having higher highs than Alfredsson, though he's had 12 60 point seasons in a row. Semi-interesting mostly trivia.
Both are really good players who have meant a lot to their teams but I'll go with Iginla here.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
Funny that someone who apparently doesn't remember "inconsistency" as the main criticism of Iginla accuses others of not watching hockey.
If you want stats:
Alfredsson had 9 straight 70 point seasons with a 4 year peak of 80+ point seasons.
Iginla never had more than 3 70 point seasons in a row despite having higher highs than Alfredsson, though he's had 12 60 point seasons in a row. Semi-interesting mostly trivia.
I remember those criticisms and gave two options for them. TV commentators etc. would probably fall less into "not watching hockey 15 years" and more into "no reasoning skills at all". They see a guy score 50 goals and then 35 and use the word "inconsistent". I would describe that with a term like "Not Ovechkin" but not even that quite works any more, maybe "Not Bossy" or "didnt play in the "80-90's".
That said I think your posts have been pretty on the mark it was the comment...
"Any player can be rendered "consistent" by dropping the bar to a level where streaks and patterns emerge. " - Epsilon
that I found very wrong as I dont think 30 over 11 seasons is a low bar in this era. But even he didn't seem to be arguing the point now that I read it again so no worries.
Iginla hasn't been inconsistent. 10+ (soon to be 11) 30 goal seasons is pretty consistent. What throws people off is Iginla's assist totals. Iginla is an above average playmaker and a great passer, but that doesn't automatically translate to assists.
