HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Karlsson vs Coffey

View Poll Results: Who is/was the better all around defenseman?
Karlsson AINEC 30 17.65%
Karlsson but close 69 40.59%
Coffey but close 39 22.94%
Coffey AINEC 32 18.82%
Voters: 170. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
Today, 06:13 AM
  #101
Johnnybegood13
Registered User
 
Johnnybegood13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,357
vCash: 500
Coffey played behind the winger but he wasn't a defender, I watched him up close since 1981, he was a third winger with great skating ability in open ice.

Theo Fleury said he was a human pilon skating when backwards

Johnnybegood13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 07:01 AM
  #102
McFlash
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 99
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crossbownerf View Post
You have to be joking/looking for attention.

+ it's much harder to rush the puck in 2017, than it was 25-45 years ago.
Are you going to make this about skating now ?
...because Coffey takes that everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Coffey was better then Karlsson. Karlsson at best is a slightly upgraded Phil Housley. Or a better offensive less defensive Scott Niedermayer.Can he carry the Sens
Of course he can. He is much better then anyone on that team. That doesn't make him a Paul Coffey however.

McFlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 08:52 AM
  #103
nmbr_24
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 12,665
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnybegood13 View Post
Coffey played behind the winger but he wasn't a defender, I watched him up close since 1981, he was a third winger with great skating ability in open ice.

Theo Fleury said he was a human pilon skating when backwards
I remember seeing Coffey falling down while trying to turn while skating backwards several times. As good as he was at skating forwards he was pretty bad going backwards.

nmbr_24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 08:55 AM
  #104
Ben White
Registered User
 
Ben White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlash View Post
Are you going to make this about skating now ?
...because Coffey takes that everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Coffey was better then Karlsson. Karlsson at best is a slightly upgraded Phil Housley. Or a better offensive less defensive Scott Niedermayer.Can he carry the Sens
Of course he can. He is much better then anyone on that team. That doesn't make him a Paul Coffey however.
Lol... I don't get the purpose of this post. Absolutely noone will agree with you on this. By now people understand that Coffey was closer to Housley than EK is.

Also, yeah EK can carry the Sens we know that much, could Coffey have harried them or any team at all? We don't know.

Ben White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 10:41 AM
  #105
Trafalgar McLaw
Waive Dallas Eakins
 
Trafalgar McLaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,229
vCash: 500
Is this a joke? All these people saying Coffey was overrated because of era or because he was propped by Gretzky/Lemieux need a hockey history lesson:

Paul Coffey repeatedly outscored Hall of Fame forwards like Messier and Kurri IN THEIR PRIMES, regular season and playoffs, and then did so nearly a decade later on a team loaded with the likes of Yzerman and Fedorov when Coffey himself was no longer in his prime. He was also consistently one of the highest scoring PLAYERS in the league (not defensemen, players) including multiple 2nd place finishes in the scoring race outright. I don't care how high scoring the 80s were compared to now or how good Gretzky/Lemieux were. Those stats indicate that Coffey's offensive presence towered over even other Hall of Famers. Meanwhile, what's Karlsson's best accomplishment is what? Outscoring Mark Stone.

Trafalgar McLaw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 10:48 AM
  #106
ybnvs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 172
vCash: 500
How do you compare players who play in completely different eras and have never stepped foot on the ice at the same time or in the same season?

I hate polls like these. They offer no use.

What's the better fruit, apples or oranges?

ybnvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 11:03 AM
  #107
Ben White
Registered User
 
Ben White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar McLaw View Post
Is this a joke? All these people saying Coffey was overrated because of era or because he was propped by Gretzky/Lemieux need a hockey history lesson:

Paul Coffey repeatedly outscored Hall of Fame forwards like Messier and Kurri IN THEIR PRIMES, regular season and playoffs, and then did so nearly a decade later on a team loaded with the likes of Yzerman and Fedorov when Coffey himself was no longer in his prime. He was also consistently one of the highest scoring PLAYERS in the league (not defensemen, players) including multiple 2nd place finishes in the scoring race outright. I don't care how high scoring the 80s were compared to now or how good Gretzky/Lemieux were. Those stats indicate that Coffey's offensive presence towered over even other Hall of Famers. Meanwhile, what's Karlsson's best accomplishment is what? Outscoring Mark Stone.
Karl was 4th leaguewide in points on a below avarage team last season, 1st in assists. This year he was 2nd in +\- in the playoffs on a team that was -12 with him on the bench. I could go on and on. He is so far ahead of every other Dman in points since breaking out that it's ridiculous.

Ben White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 04:05 PM
  #108
Trafalgar McLaw
Waive Dallas Eakins
 
Trafalgar McLaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben White View Post
Karl was 4th leaguewide in points on a below avarage team last season, 1st in assists. This year he was 2nd in +\- in the playoffs on a team that was -12 with him on the bench. I could go on and on. He is so far ahead of every other Dman in points since breaking out that it's ridiculous.
You know what's an even more impressive feat than finishing 4th in points in a low offense era? Finishing 2nd in points in the highest scoring era in league history multiple times. Also lets take a look at their careers offensively since "breaking out" shall we? I'll even make the comparison as favourable to Karlsson as possible, who broke out in year 3 during the 2011-2012 season and recently wrapped up year 8. So we'll just look at Paul Coffey's years 3-8 as well (this leaves off Coffey's year 2, 9, 10, 15 where he led all dmen in points including multiple 100 point years and a Norris years). We'll also be looking at just raw points alone because Coffey was a monstrously better goal scorer. I'll be throwing out stats for players who played less than a quarter of a season (which if you want to have a look yourself, hurts Coffey far more than it hurts Karlsson in this comparison).

Erik Karlsson:
2011-2012: 78 points vs 53 points=47% lead over Byfuglien, 0.96 ppg vs 0.82 ppg=17% lead over Letang
2012-2013: 60th in points (injured), 3rd in ppg
2013-2014: 74 points vs 61 points=21% lead over Keith, 0.90 ppg vs 0.77 ppg=17% lead over Keith
2014-2015: 66 points vs 60 points=10% lead over Burns, 0.80 ppg vs 0.79 ppg=1% lead over Giordano
2015-2016: 82 points vs 75 points=9% lead over Burns, 1.00 ppg vs 0.94 ppg=6% lead over Subban
2016-2017: 3rd in points, 2nd in ppg

Paul Coffey:
1982-1983: 96 points vs 75 points=28% lead over Reinhart, 1.20 ppg vs 1.12 ppg=7% lead over Bourque
1983-1984: 126 points vs 96 points=31% lead over Bourque, 1.57 ppg vs 1.23 ppg=28% lead over Bourque
1984-1985: 121 points vs 86 points=41% lead over Bourque, 1.51 ppg vs 1.18 ppg=28% lead over Bourque
1985-1986: 138 points vs 82 points=68% lead over Howe. 1.75 ppf vs 1.06 ppg=65% lead over Howe
1986-1987: 6th in points (injured), 2nd in ppg
1987-1988: 5th in points (holdout for half the season), 1.46 ppg vs 1.21 ppg=21% lead over Suter

If Karlsson was miles ahead of every other dmen offensively in his era, then Coffey lapped the dmen in his era twice, took a detour lap around the sun, then came back and was still miles ahead of the other "contenders" in the race. Throw in all the "carried by Gretzky/Lemieux" nonsense you want, the fact of the matter is Coffey dominated his peers so much more than Karlsson it's not even funny. The only season that Karlsson put up relative to his competition that holds a candle to what Coffey was doing year after year was his 2011-2012 season, where the next most impressive dmen were Kris Letang and Dustin freaking Byfuglien.

This brings up another key point. Take a look at who their actual peers are: Coffey competed against the likes of Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis, Howe, Robinson, Housley, Wilson, Suter, and Reinhart. That is a list full of Hall of Famers with the most impressive offensive numbers put up by non-Orr/Coffey defensemen ever. Karlsson competed against Keith, Subban, Hedman, Letang, Green, Giordano (seriously?), Shattenkirk (lol), and Byfuglien (lmfao what the actual ****?). Karlsson's opposition is full of great players but pale in comparison to what Coffey was up against. Heck even comparing the weaker players in the group, Wilson/Suter/Reinhart vs Giordano/Shattenkirk/Byfuglien and we have the 80s players being decidedly better offensive weapons (seriously? Byfuglien? really?).

Note, this is with 4 of Coffey's best seasons REMOVED from the discussion. Karlsson not only needs to catch Coffey in terms of dominant offensive performances, he needs to add 4 more on top of those to match Coffey's dominance over his peers. Also note that this isn't even taking into account goal scoring, which if you want to take a look yourself, paints an even more lopsided picture of Coffey vs Karlsson offensively. Erik Karlsson is the best offensive dman of the 21st century, but lets give him a few years before we put him ahead of a guy who broke some of Bobby Orr's "most unbreakable" records.

Trafalgar McLaw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 04:46 PM
  #109
Ben White
Registered User
 
Ben White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar McLaw View Post
You know what's an even more impressive feat than finishing 4th in points in a low offense era? Finishing 2nd in points in the highest scoring era in league history multiple times. Also lets take a look at their careers offensively since "breaking out" shall we? I'll even make the comparison as favourable to Karlsson as possible, who broke out in year 3 during the 2011-2012 season and recently wrapped up year 8. So we'll just look at Paul Coffey's years 3-8 as well (this leaves off Coffey's year 2, 9, 10, 15 where he led all dmen in points including multiple 100 point years and a Norris years). We'll also be looking at just raw points alone because Coffey was a monstrously better goal scorer. I'll be throwing out stats for players who played less than a quarter of a season (which if you want to have a look yourself, hurts Coffey far more than it hurts Karlsson in this comparison).

Erik Karlsson:
2011-2012: 78 points vs 53 points=47% lead over Byfuglien, 0.96 ppg vs 0.82 ppg=17% lead over Letang
2012-2013: 60th in points (injured), 3rd in ppg
2013-2014: 74 points vs 61 points=21% lead over Keith, 0.90 ppg vs 0.77 ppg=17% lead over Keith
2014-2015: 66 points vs 60 points=10% lead over Burns, 0.80 ppg vs 0.79 ppg=1% lead over Giordano
2015-2016: 82 points vs 75 points=9% lead over Burns, 1.00 ppg vs 0.94 ppg=6% lead over Subban
2016-2017: 3rd in points, 2nd in ppg

Paul Coffey:
1982-1983: 96 points vs 75 points=28% lead over Reinhart, 1.20 ppg vs 1.12 ppg=7% lead over Bourque
1983-1984: 126 points vs 96 points=31% lead over Bourque, 1.57 ppg vs 1.23 ppg=28% lead over Bourque
1984-1985: 121 points vs 86 points=41% lead over Bourque, 1.51 ppg vs 1.18 ppg=28% lead over Bourque
1985-1986: 138 points vs 82 points=68% lead over Howe. 1.75 ppf vs 1.06 ppg=65% lead over Howe
1986-1987: 6th in points (injured), 2nd in ppg
1987-1988: 5th in points (holdout for half the season), 1.46 ppg vs 1.21 ppg=21% lead over Suter

If Karlsson was miles ahead of every other dmen offensively in his era, then Coffey lapped the dmen in his era twice, took a detour lap around the sun, then came back and was still miles ahead of the other "contenders" in the race. Throw in all the "carried by Gretzky/Lemieux" nonsense you want, the fact of the matter is Coffey dominated his peers so much more than Karlsson it's not even funny. The only season that Karlsson put up relative to his competition that holds a candle to what Coffey was doing year after year was his 2011-2012 season, where the next most impressive dmen were Kris Letang and Dustin freaking Byfuglien.

This brings up another key point. Take a look at who their actual peers are: Coffey competed against the likes of Bourque, Potvin, MacInnis, Howe, Robinson, Housley, Wilson, Suter, and Reinhart. That is a list full of Hall of Famers with the most impressive offensive numbers put up by non-Orr/Coffey defensemen ever. Karlsson competed against Keith, Subban, Hedman, Letang, Green, Giordano (seriously?), Shattenkirk (lol), and Byfuglien (lmfao what the actual ****?). Karlsson's opposition is full of great players but pale in comparison to what Coffey was up against. Heck even comparing the weaker players in the group, Wilson/Suter/Reinhart vs Giordano/Shattenkirk/Byfuglien and we have the 80s players being decidedly better offensive weapons (seriously? Byfuglien? really?).

Note, this is with 4 of Coffey's best seasons REMOVED from the discussion. Karlsson not only needs to catch Coffey in terms of dominant offensive performances, he needs to add 4 more on top of those to match Coffey's dominance over his peers. Also note that this isn't even taking into account goal scoring, which if you want to take a look yourself, paints an even more lopsided picture of Coffey vs Karlsson offensively. Erik Karlsson is the best offensive dman of the 21st century, but lets give him a few years before we put him ahead of a guy who broke some of Bobby Orr's "most unbreakable" records.
Again Coffey did it playing with multiple HOFers against basically weaker teams each and every night. Their situations are not comparable. And that's only offensively speaking, disregarding the better 2-way player Karl has become.

Ben White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 05:29 PM
  #110
Trafalgar McLaw
Waive Dallas Eakins
 
Trafalgar McLaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben White View Post
Again Coffey did it playing with multiple HOFers against basically weaker teams each and every night. Their situations are not comparable. And that's only offensively speaking, disregarding the better 2-way player Karl has become.
Then explain why was Coffey consistently outscoring all these Hall of Famers on the same team. He was on teams with Hall of Fame forwards Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Recchi, Jagr, Francis, Yzerman, Fedorov, and Ciccarelli, yet had more impressive offensive output than all those guys, and for most of those guys, it was during their primes. It'd be like Karlsson going to the Penguins and consistently outscoring Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. Sure he put up his numbers going up against weaker teams, but why was it that the brigade Hall of Fame FORWARDS who played against those weak teams at the same time as Coffey couldn't keep up with his production as a defenseman? What do you think is more impressive? Coffey outscoring some of the most gifted offensive players of all time, or Erik Karlsson outscoring Kyle Turris, Mark Stone, and Mike Hoffman? I know what my answer is.

First of all, my post was addressing your comment that Karlsson was miles ahead of every other dman of this era offensively and the point was to show that Karlsson's offensive feats were a joke compared to what Coffey was able to accomplish. As for two way play, like Karlsson, Coffey had years where he went all out offensive and didn't play a lick of defense, especially during his early and twilight years. But like Karlsson he developed a two way game as time went on and was absolutely capable of making a massive impact defensively. During his peak/prime years, Coffey was considered an excellent if not elite defensive player, especially when it came to high stakes games. In fact, Coffey's most famous play was a defensive effort during the 1984 Canada Cup.

Trafalgar McLaw is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
Today, 05:45 PM
  #111
ScaredStreit
Registered User
 
ScaredStreit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 8,060
vCash: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by DominicBoltsFan View Post
id say just orr, bourque and lidstrom
You think think that Coffey > Potvin? huh?

ScaredStreit is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.