HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[TheDevilMadeMe]

At this point, everyone who submitted lists should have received a response.

We'll start Round 2 in a day or two.

[tarheelhockey]

Originally Posted by Gobias Industries

I'd love to see the quality of the backup to all of them listed as well, that's my initial reaction and I don't think there's been much talk of that being a factor.

Here is the same list, with some additional information:
- The goalie's save percentage, followed by the difference between his and the league average (bolded)
- The total save percentage of other goalies who played for his team (BSv%), followed by the difference between theirs and league average (bolded)
- League average save percentage (LSv%)
- The difference of sv% difference between the starter and backups (Diff, bolded)

Name	GP	Season	Sv%	BSv%	LSv%	Diff
Grant Fuhr	79	1995-96	.903 (+.005)	.867 (-.031)	.898	(+.036)
Martin Brodeur	78	2006-07	.922 (+.017)	.899 (-.006)	.905	(+.023)
Martin Brodeur	77	1995-96	.911 (+.013)	.900 (+.002)	.898	(+.011)
Martin Brodeur	77	2007-08	.920 (+.011)	.894 (-.015)	.909	(+.026)
Martin Brodeur	77	2009-10	.916 (+.005)	.923 (+.012)	.911	(-.007)
Marc Denis	77	2002-03	.903 (-.006)	.884 (-.025)	.909	(+.019)
Arturs Irbe	77	2000-01	.908 (+.005)	.853 (-.050)	.903	(+.055)
Evgeni Nabokov	77	2007-08	.910 (+.001)	.896 (-.013)	.909	(+.014)
Bill Ranford	77	1995-96	.885 (-.013)	.869 (-.029)	.898	(+.016)
Miikka Kiprusoff	76	2007-08	.906 (-.003)	.906 (-.003)	.909	even
Mikka Kiprusoff	76	2008-09	.903 (-.005)	.889 (-.019)	.908	(+.014)
Roberto Luongo	76	2006-07	.921 (+.016)	.906 (+.001)	.905	(+.015)
Ryan Miller	76	2007-08	.906 (-.003)	.869 (-.040)	.909	(+.037)
Martin Brodeur	75	2003-04	.917 (+.006)	.961 (+.050)	.911	(-.044)
Grant Fuhr	75	1987-88	.876 (-.004)	.881 (+.001)	.880	(-.005)
Arturs Irbe	75	1999-00	.906 (+.002)	.883 (-.021)	.904	(+.023)
Roberto Luongo	75	2005-06	.914 (+.013)	.906 (+.005)	.901	(+.008)
Ed Belfour	74	1990-91	.910 (+.024)	.884 (-.002)	.886	(+.026)
Arturs Irbe	74	1993-94	.899 (+.004)	.843 (-.052)	.895	(+.056)
Miikka Kiprusoff	74	2006-07	.917 (+.012)	.895 (-.010)	.905	(+.022)
Mikka Kiprusoff	74	2005-06	.923 (+.022)	.879 (-.022)	.901	(+.044)
Felix Potvin	74	1996-97	.908 (+.003)	.891 (-.014)	.905	(+.017)
Marty Turco	74	2008-09	.898 (-.010)	.871 (-.037)	.908	(+.027)
Cam Ward	74	2010-11	.923 (+.010)	.875 (-.038)	.913	(+.048)

Observations:

Bill Ranford's 1996 was a strange case because he switched teams mid-season, making this analysis prohibitively complicated. Needless to say, it is very weird that he played so many games for two different coaches, in front of two sets of backups, etc.

I think it says a lot that the same names come up repeatedly -- Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Irbe, Luongo, Fuhr -- even under different coaches, on different teams, across large time spans. Backup performance appears to have nothing to do with it (except perhaps for Irbe... yikes). Suggests that some goalies simply have the innate ability to play more games than others, independent of team factors.

- Among those who appear only once, backup performance appears to be the leading factor. Check the god-awful BSv% for Miller, Turco and Ward. Not much better for Denis, Nabokov and Belfour.

[Hawkey Town 18]

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey

Here is the same list, with some additional information:
- The goalie's save percentage, followed by the difference between his and the league average (bolded)
- The total save percentage of other goalies who played for his team (BSv%), followed by the difference between theirs and league average (bolded)
- League average save percentage (LSv%)
- The difference of sv% difference between the starter and backups (Diff, bolded)




Observations:

Bill Ranford's 1996 was a strange case because he switched teams mid-season, making this analysis prohibitively complicated. Needless to say, it is very weird that he played so many games for two different coaches, in front of two sets of backups, etc.

I think it says a lot that the same names come up repeatedly -- Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Irbe, Luongo, Fuhr -- even under different coaches, on different teams, across large time spans. Backup performance appears to have nothing to do with it (except perhaps for Irbe... yikes). Suggests that some goalies simply have the innate ability to play more games than others, independent of team factors.

- Among those who appear only once, backup performance appears to be the leading factor. Check the god-awful BSv% for Miller, Turco and Ward. Not much better for Denis, Nabokov and Belfour.

The Diff for Brodeur's 03'-04' appears to have the wrong sign (should be negative).

[BM67]

Just counting Edmonton games before January 11th, and Boston games after January 11th, (Boston played on January 11th, game not counted) the backups had a SV% of .869; Edm: .868; Bos: .872.

Ranford picked up 4 extra games going from Edm 43 GP to Bos only 39 GP as of Jan 11, 96.

[tarheelhockey]

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18

The Diff for Brodeur's 03'-04' appears to have the wrong sign (should be negative).

Originally Posted by BM67

Just counting Edmonton games before January 11th, and Boston games after January 11th, (Boston played on January 11th, game not counted) the backups had a SV% of .869; Edm: .868; Bos: .872.

Ranford picked up 4 extra games going from Edm 43 GP to Bos only 39 GP as of Jan 11, 96.

Thanks for both of these; I'll update the table.

[tarheelhockey]

Interesting about Ranford picking up the extra 4 games; if we subtract those games, he goes from t-18 down to t-68 on the all time list. That kinda explains him away.

Another thing I should note -- I stopped the list at 24 entries because it becomes very long if you go down to all the goalies with 73 GP. But look what happens if you add the 73GP group.

Brodeur x2
Fuhr
Kiprusoff
Luongo
Turco
Hiller
Kolzig
Lundqvist
Parent
Rinne
Salo
Vokoun

Half the entries are guys who were already in the 74+ group. Strongly suggests that it's more about the goalie than the team involved.

[Master_Of_Districts]

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho

No, there is evidence that says that different goalies prefer and perform better behind different defense styles though.

That's a common sense assumption, but it's probably about 1/1000 as important as everyone thinks it is.

[BM67]

If Luongo is a workhorse, what is Brodeur?

Most games played since beginning of Luongo's career LINK

Player	GP	Age
Brodeur	816	27-39
Luongo	727	20-32
Vokoun	642	23-35

Brodeur is more than a full season ahead of Luongo in GP, and there's almost as large a gap between Luongo and Vokoun.

Take away Luongo's rookie season and the gap between Brodeur and Luongo narrows, but the gap between Luongo and Vokoun gets larger. LINK

Player	GP	Age
Brodeur	744	28-39
Luongo	703	21-32
Vokoun	609	22-35

Luongo doesn't catch Brodeur until you limit it to 2003-04 and later, but then Luongo is behind Kiprusoff. LINK

Player	GP	Age
Kiprusoff	552	27-35
Luongo	533	24-32
Brodeur	526	31-39

Luongo will be one year older than Brodeur was during the last lockout during this lockout.

[tarheelhockey]

As to the impact of defenseman size, here are the 50+GP defensemen for each of the 77+ GP seasons (minus Ranford, who didn't play 50 games with either team). For Brodeur's 2007-2010, I compacted his defensemen into a single list because, well, it's the same team over and over.


Grant Fuhr, 1995-96 St. Louis Blues

Defenseman	GP	Height	Weight
Chris Pronger	78	6-6	220
Murray Baron	82	6-3	215
Al MacInnis	82	6-2	204
Jay Wells	76	6-1	210

Martin Brodeur, 1995-96 New Jersey Devils

Defenseman	GP	Height	Weight
Jason Smith	64	6-3	220
Scott Stevens	82	6-2	215
Shawn Chambers	64	6-2	210
Tommy Albelin	53	6-2	195
Ken Daneyko	80	6-1	215
Scott Niedermayer	79	6-1	194

Martin Brodeur, 2007-2008-2010 New Jersey Devils

Defenseman	Season(s)	Height	Weight
Mark Fraser	'10	6-4	220
Colin White	'07, '08, '10	6-4	215
Bryce Salvador	'10	6-3	215
Vitaly Vishnevski	'08	6-2	215
Brad Lukowich	'07	6-1	200
Paul Martin	'07, '08	6-1	200
Mike Mottau	'08, '10	6-0	190
Johnny Oduya	'07, '08	6-0	190
Andy Greene	'08, '10	5-11	190
Brian Rafalski	'07	5-10	194

Marc Denis, 2002-03 Columbus Blue Jackets

Defenseman	GP	Height	Weight
Rotislav Klesla	72	6-3	223
Luke Richardson	82	6-3	208
Scott Lachance	61	6-1	215
Jaroslav Spacek	81	6-0	210
Derrick Walser	53	5-10	190

Arturs Irbe, 2000-01 Carolina Hurricanes

Defenseman	GP	Height	Weight
Marek Malik	61	6-6	235
Kevin Hatcher	57	6-3	230
Sandis Ozolinsh	72	6-3	215
David Tanabe	74	6-1	212
Dave Karpa	80	6-1	210
Glen Wesley	71	6-1	207

Evgeni Nabokov, 2007-08 San Jose Sharks

Defenseman	GP	Height	Weight
Kyle McLaren	61	6-4	235
Douglas Murray	66	6-3	245
Craig Rivet	74	6-2	207
Christian Ehrhoff	77	6-2	203
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	82	6-1	205
Matt Carle	62	6-0	205

I can say for sure that in each of the the post-1996 seasons, which are listed on NHL.com's database, the average height and weight for a defenseman was 6-2, 210 (or in one case 209). From what I understand the numbers might be noticeably different for 1996, but I'm not sure where to find that information. However, it is worth noting that between 1996 and present the average NHL player (not just defensemen) added about half an inch and 8 pounds in size.


Observations: It does not appear that any of these teams had an especially large defensive group, though the '96 Blues and the '96 Devils might have been a bit large for their time. Chris Pronger on the '96 Blues is the only clear-cut case of a large, elite #1 defenseman who played a lot of minutes and might have tangibly impacted the angle and distance of an average shot against Fuhr.

[tarheelhockey]

One last thing and I'll drop the subject for now (I'm just getting carried away with the research now that I'm knee-deep in it).

Fuhr's 1996 stands out for a few reasons:

- He did in fact have a large defense in front of him, at least compared to the others on this list.
- This was the first time in 8 years that he played more than 66 games in a season, and he exploded for 79. He played 73 the following year and then regressed back to normal numbers.
- THREE goalies broke 77 GP that season - Fuhr, Brodeur, Ranford. At the time, those were the top 3 GP seasons of all time, and only Irbe approached/broke that mark for another 7 years. Very strange how that all worked out, similar to how goalies abruptly started scoring goals around that time.

Another noteworthy factor in Fuhr's season... backup goalie GP.

Goalie	Season	Backup games
Grant Fuhr	1995-96	21
Martin Brodeur	1995-96	14
Martin Brodeur	2009-10	12
Arturs Irbe	2000-01	12
Marc Denis	2002-03	11
Evgeni Nabokov	2007-08	11
Martin Brodeur	2007-08	9
Martin Brodeur	2006-07	6

One of these is not like the other...

Of course, it bears mentioning that the hook-master himself, Mike Keenan, was the head coach of those Blues. So it would be very much worth accounting for how many of these games featured Fuhr's backup getting pulled and vice versa.

[Taco MacArthur]

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey

Of course, it bears mentioning that the hook-master himself, Mike Keenan, was the head coach of those Blues. So it would be very much worth accounting for how many of these games featured Fuhr's backup getting pulled and vice versa.

That season also featured Bruce Racine, who holds the NHL record for the greatest number of league appearances without ever starting a game.

[tarheelhockey]

Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur

That season also featured Bruce Racine, who holds the NHL record for the greatest number of league appearances without ever starting a game.

Talk about a perfect storm.

Without doing a ton of work, I have definite explanations on the following games:

10/17/95 - Fuhr pulled, Jablonski in at 12:20 of 3rd
11/18/95 - Fuhr pulled, Racine in at 10:00 of 3rd
12/23/95 - Fuhr pulled, Racine in at 3:22 of 1st (Iron Mike )
12/30/95 - Fuhr pulled, Racine in at 9:45 of 2nd
3/15/96 - Fuhr pulled, Casey in at 2:42 of 2nd
3/17/96 - Fuhr pulled, Casey in at 1st Intermission
3/20/96 - Fuhr pulled, Casey in at 3:54 of 2nd

And a newspaper preview from 3/31/96 says: "Keenan has pulled Fuhr 16 times this season, ostensibly to wake up the team in substandard..."

Something I never realized before -- Fuhr's only missed starts that season were on April 3, 4 and 6. (Casey started those games, so we can peg "Fuhr pulled, replaced by X" at 18 for the season) Was Fuhr injured or was Keenan getting tired of pulling his goalie every other game?

Essentially, Fuhr would have started all 82 games that season if not for the one week in April. We can probably chalk this up to "extreme outlier due to insane coach" and be done with it.

[seventieslord]

Originally Posted by tarheelhockey

Of course, it bears mentioning that the hook-master himself, Mike Keenan, was the head coach of those Blues. So it would be very much worth accounting for how many of these games featured Fuhr's backup getting pulled and vice versa.

Yeah, I remember there was a lot of press that year about Keenan riding Fuhr, but also pulling him with remarkable frequency.

[Taco MacArthur]

I've got Fuhr listed with two injuries that season - they line up with his missed games:

Injured knee; missed three games, March 31, 1996.
Underwent knee surgery; missed remainder of playoffs, April 27, 1996.

[tarheelhockey]

That first knee injury is a shame. Even if he got pulled at the drop of a hat, starting all 82 games would be a major record that Fuhr would hold for a long, long time.