Factoring age and production, I don't think Kunitz should get more than 4.
Also, I don't think Staal should get a raise. I was under the impression that Shero overpaid on his current contract (paid for potential), but there hasn't been any considerable improvement in his production. I see no reason why paying Staal $4 mil at his current production is unreasonable, even for a UFA. Of course, if Staal puts up 60+ points this season, that'll cost us at least another $1 million per year for him.
I don't want Staal eating up more cap room either, but other teams would probably pay him more and offer a bigger role. He may be a tough re-sign for those reasons.
Let's hope Staal keeps giving Cassius reasons to complain so we can re-sign him for a reasonable price, then next season he can start reaching potential. Sounds like a perfect plan.
Let's hope Staal keeps giving Cassius reasons to complain so we can re-sign him for a reasonable price, then next season he can start reaching potential. Sounds like a perfect plan.
Pretty much what happened with Letang. Pens re-signed him during a down year for 3.5m/per and now he probably plays like a 5 million/per D-Man.
I think the majority of you people want your cake and to eat it too. Sure, it's easy to let Kunitz go. But who do we put in his position? Some prospect or some turd we sign for 2M/year?
It's not easy finding a ball-busting forechecker that can play with our superstar player and at the same time play with our grinding 3rd-line center.
I'd rather pay Kunitz 4.5M than pay some idiot like (insert redundant leftover here) for 3M.
And honestly, if Staal wants more than 5M he can just go away.
I think the majority of you people want your cake and to eat it too. Sure, it's easy to let Kunitz go. But who do we put in his position? Some prospect or some turd we sign for 2M/year?
It's not easy finding a ball-busting forechecker that can play with our superstar player and at the same time play with our grinding 3rd-line center.
I'd rather pay Kunitz 4.5M than pay some idiot like (insert redundant leftover here) for 3M.
And honestly, if Staal wants more than 5M he can just go away.
I'd also rather keep Crosby, Staal, Malkin, Neal, Kennedy over a 32 to 35 year old if you all get your wish with a 3 to 4 year deal.
Kunitz has not etched his status in stone here. Everytime he seems to make headway he gets injured and last playoffs a untimely suspension. I still catch him from time to time hunched over. The dudes damaged goods. Still a good player when he's not sidetracked, but how do you know when that'll be?
And lets not act like there won't be options in the coming seasons VIA trade or UFA.
I think the majority of you people want your cake and to eat it too. Sure, it's easy to let Kunitz go. But who do we put in his position? Some prospect or some turd we sign for 2M/year?
It's not easy finding a ball-busting forechecker that can play with our superstar player and at the same time play with our grinding 3rd-line center.
I'd rather pay Kunitz 4.5M than pay some idiot like (insert redundant leftover here) for 3M.
And honestly, if Staal wants more than 5M he can just go away.
I want a right-winger. If Bennett won't be ready next year (and I doubt he will be), that's what we need. Even IF Neal makes a successful conversion. We still need right-wing help.
Kunitz. Dupuis. Cooke. They're all fine. But we need to balance out the wings at some point. Tangradi's another LW. Sooo, it stands to reason that RW should be our off-season priority. Now, if there's nobody out there, well then that's a whole other ball game.
Letang's signed for 3 more seasons, including this year. Lucky us.
Letang has 2 years left on his contract after this. That is one MAJOR reason why I wouldn't sign Kunitz for more than 2 years -- even though I'd like to keep him for 4 or 5.
Also, if we're looking at replacing expensive older players with younger ones, Kunitz and Martin are the perfect examples. Bortuzzo will be an NHLer next year, with Despres and Morrow not too far behind. On the LW, we have Tangradi, Agostino and Kuhnhackl -- and maybe Jeffrey if he converts to wing -- all fighting for top 9 LW ice-time 2 or 3 years from now.
Ya, just because the cap rises doesn't mean the value of the dollar does.
Obviously. In fact it's the opposite. When the cap rises the value of the dollar shrinks, and that is why you're seeing all of these mediocre players get signed to ridiculous deals lately.
I really don't buy that fitting Neal and Kunitz under the cap is going to be an issue. Kunitz already makes $3.725m per, getting him in the $4-4.5m range isn't going to make or break our cap situation. Similar with Neal who is already making roughly $3m. Unless he absolutely tears it up this season he won't require much of a pay bump to keep under contract for the next few years.
Going back to what I was saying earlier, the constantly increasing salary cap combined with the ever weakening free agent market means that a lot of not so great players are getting signed to lucrative offers. Just look at what Ville Leino and Erik Cole got, and Kunitz is clearly better than the both of them, not by an insignificant margin either. If you let Kunitz go, what exactly is the plan? To replace him with a much inferior player for $1-1.5m less? No thanks. I'll keep the guy who has been lights out with Sidney Crosby and has consistently been a force in the playoffs, even if that means sitting out 10-15 regular season games. I would also point out that prior to 09-10 Kunitz had missed one game in 3 years. While he's not quite the iron man anymore that he was in Anaheim, there's a lot of luck involved when it comes to injuries. I don't think he's all of a sudden a guy that you only expect 60 games a year from. Let's see how his health plays out this year.
So my vote is to keep Kunitz on a 2-3 year deal for somewhere in the $4-4.5m range. If anybody thinks they're getting a better deal than that in the current environment of free agency they haven't been paying attention to the kind of money that's been getting thrown around post July 1st.
Just look at what Ville Leino and Erik Cole got, and Kunitz is clearly better than the both of them, not by an insignificant margin either.
I think that is homering. Cole is pretty much exactly the player Kunitz is, just more physical and a little less sound with his back-checking.
Leino is a totally different player, but based on his Philly career not inferior to Kunitz. Just competent in other ways and with less of a proven record.
But anyway, those two contracts show that there will be teams out there offering big coin to Kunitz, because in a full season he gives you 50-60 points and solid two way play.
He just has to decide how much it is worth playing on a team like the Pens for the long term. I think we keep him if we just let his salary stay as is.
Letang has 2 years left on his contract after this. That is one MAJOR reason why I wouldn't sign Kunitz for more than 2 years -- even though I'd like to keep him for 4 or 5.
Why is that an issue? If we sign Kunitz for 3 years, towards the end of it either the cap goes up enough that we're able to retain him (the most likely scenario), it doesn't and we can deal a 2-time Cup winner to a team looking for some veteran grit, or his play falls off a cliff and we bury him in the minors.
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Also, if we're looking at replacing expensive older players with younger ones, Kunitz and Martin are the perfect examples. Bortuzzo will be an NHLer next year, with Despres and Morrow not too far behind. On the LW, we have Tangradi, Agostino and Kuhnhackl -- and maybe Jeffrey if he converts to wing -- all fighting for top 9 LW ice-time 2 or 3 years from now.
Contenders shouldn't be looking to replace effective ~30 year olds who make what they're worth. They should be looking to augment them.
Look at Detroit.
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz
Obviously. In fact it's the opposite. When the cap rises the value of the dollar shrinks, and that is why you're seeing all of these mediocre players get signed to ridiculous deals lately.
I really don't buy that fitting Neal and Kunitz under the cap is going to be an issue. Kunitz already makes $3.725m per, getting him in the $4-4.5m range isn't going to make or break our cap situation. Similar with Neal who is already making roughly $3m. Unless he absolutely tears it up this season he won't require much of a pay bump to keep under contract for the next few years.
Going back to what I was saying earlier, the constantly increasing salary cap combined with the ever weakening free agent market means that a lot of not so great players are getting signed to lucrative offers. Just look at what Ville Leino and Erik Cole got, and Kunitz is clearly better than the both of them, not by an insignificant margin either. If you let Kunitz go, what exactly is the plan? To replace him with a much inferior player for $1-1.5m less? No thanks. I'll keep the guy who has been lights out with Sidney Crosby and has consistently been a force in the playoffs, even if that means sitting out 10-15 regular season games. I would also point out that prior to 09-10 Kunitz had missed one game in 3 years. While he's not quite the iron man anymore that he was in Anaheim, there's a lot of luck involved when it comes to injuries. I don't think he's all of a sudden a guy that you only expect 60 games a year from. Let's see how his health plays out this year.
So my vote is to keep Kunitz on a 2-3 year deal for somewhere in the $4-4.5m range. If anybody thinks they're getting a better deal than that in the current environment of free agency they haven't been paying attention to the kind of money that's been getting thrown around post July 1st.
Exactly. Some people think a Bobby Ryan is just going to fall into our lap.
What Kuni brings to this team, aside from the obvious with his skills and grit, is the fact that he has developed incredible chemistry with Sid. I think that alone would be worth keeping him around another 2-3 years. My biggest worry with him has been his inability to stay healthy for long periods, which will likely become more of an issue as he gets older. If the contract is reasonable price-wise though, then I say we do it. I just don't want it to be a factor in us re-signing some of our core guys (keep in mind that Geno and Sid's contracts are up for renewal in a couple of years...).
Kunitz could get more elsewhere, IMO. I don't think he'll be chasing money though. Pittsburgh is without a shadow of a doubt the best situation, and aside from money, they offer him everything that he could ever ask for.
With how free agency is, I could see a team offering Kunitz above 4.5 million. That's just how that madness of a ****show works.
Kunitz could get more elsewhere, IMO. I don't think he'll be chasing money though. Pittsburgh is without a shadow of a doubt the best situation, and aside from money, they offer him everything that he could ever ask for.
With how free agency is, I could see a team offering Kunitz above 4.5 million. That's just how that madness of a ****show works.
As long as it's not us, I have no problems with that.
I really like Kunitz's game but it's going to come down to business. I'd like to have him back but it has to be a good deal for both sides. I believe he will stay (just a gut instinct) but I'm really curious to see the financial aspect of it as well as term.
I don't think he will get more than four. If it's longer term (3 years), I think it's going to be around the same cap hit he is making right now. If it's 2 years, then maybe 4M/year. If he plays under 75 games this season, I don't believe he will get any more than four.
If he plays 70+ games and puts up 25+ goals then it's not outrageous to think he could get 4.5 for several years.
If Shero has a backup plan to add another top six forward, then by all means stick to a certain number/term when trying to resign Kuni. But if FA is as bad or worse than last summer, I'd rather overpay the guy a little and maybe take a chance on giving him a third year than have a 09-11 top six again.
Why is that an issue? If we sign Kunitz for 3 years, towards the end of it either the cap goes up enough that we're able to retain him (the most likely scenario), it doesn't and we can deal a 2-time Cup winner to a team looking for some veteran grit, or his play falls off a cliff and we bury him in the minors.
[QUOTE=Champagne Wishes;37674615]
First and foremost, I don't think Shero signs anyone -- unless it's to a discount (i.e. Kunitz for between $3 and $3.5 tops) -- until the new CBA is completed, or at least the basic tenets outlined.
The NHL/owners are pushing for a LOWER % of revenue to be spent on player salaries. They are talking about a going from 56% to 50%, which is about an 11% reduction. That, in theory, could bring the cap down back into the mid 50's.
An increase in revenues (if that happens again) may offset that to some degree. Although at the same time, the 5% inflator may disappear as well.
So the fact of the matter is that it's a complicated, complex issues and even if the cap itself doesn't go DOWN (which it could -- even if the current contracts/overages were "grandfathered" in), there is a real chance that it will not RISE for a few years. Nobody knows.
But I do know one thing: Shero is a guy who errs on the side of being conservative he likes shorter deals and he's a majician for getting some guys to sign for much less money than they could get elsewhere. So I'm expecting a reduction rather than a raise for Chris Kunitz, even if he could get a raise elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes
Contenders shouldn't be looking to replace effective ~30 year olds who make what they're worth. They should be looking to augment them.
Look at Detroit.
You're right, but Detroit has it's 2 superstar players signed for in the $6 million range and don't have a goalie making $5million. That gives them far more flexability with their salary structure. And yes, they have had young guys such as Filpulla & Hudler, or aging reclammation projects like Clearly & Bertuzzi, come in to replace some of their older, departed players. Detroit has also used the "ultra long term to bring the cap hit down" strategy with some of their deals (i.e. Franzen), which is something Shero and the Pens will not do.
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Originally Posted by Human
knowing how Shero works, he'll offer 3.5/4 millions for 2/3 years. I don't think Kunitz will take it.
Let me fix that for you....
Knowing how Shero works, he'll try to get Kunitz signed at a discount, just like he has with all the other impending UFAs. He'll try to sign Kunitz for about $3million, and may give him an extra year (i.e. 3 years) for him to do so.
Otherwise, he may just ask Kunitz to sit tight and wait until the CBA is worked out, while at the same time figuring out Neal's contract and perhaps even an extension for Kennedy, and see where everything fits together.
First and foremost, I don't think Shero signs anyone -- unless it's to a discount (i.e. Kunitz for between $3 and $3.5 tops) -- until the new CBA is completed, or at least the basic tenets outlined.
Shero signed Dupuis with a raise to a contract that runs through 2013.
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So the fact of the matter is that it's a complicated, complex issues and even if the cap itself doesn't go DOWN (which it could -- even if the current contracts/overages were "grandfathered" in), there is a real chance that it will not RISE for a few years. Nobody knows.
The cap hasn't gone down since it's been instituted, even through the biggest recession to hit the US since the Depression. I think it'll be alright.
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But I do know one thing: Shero is a guy who errs on the side of being conservative he likes shorter deals and he's a majician for getting some guys to sign for much less money than they could get elsewhere. So I'm expecting a reduction rather than a raise for Chris Kunitz, even if he could get a raise elsewhere.
Like I said: Dupers. He's a lot less valuable to this team than Kunitz, and he still got a moderate raise.
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You're right, but Detroit has it's 2 superstar players signed for in the $6 million range and don't have a goalie making $5million. That gives them far more flexability with their salary structure. And yes, they have had young guys such as Filpulla & Hudler, or aging reclammation projects like Clearly & Bertuzzi, come in to replace some of their older, departed players. Detroit has also used the "ultra long term to bring the cap hit down" strategy with some of their deals (i.e. Franzen), which is something Shero and the Pens will not do.
Detroit also had two defensemen making 6+ mil until Rafalski retired. I don't think their numbers at the top have been different enough from ours to afford them a philosophy we couldn't reasonably adopt.
Effective, proven veterans who earn their money and play a valuable role are worth retaining for any contender. They're not to be weeded out in their late 20s/early 30s because they might decline, all to accommodate a collection of decidedly non blue chip prospects.
When it comes to the cap, I will never ever trust anything anyone says around here after what happened a few years ago where people were talking about drops to the tune of millions, and the cap actually went up.
Armchair cap experts are really some of the biggest smoke blowers.
When it comes to the cap, I will never ever trust anything anyone says around here after what happened a few years ago where people were talking about drops to the tune of millions, and the cap actually went up.
Armchair cap experts are really some of the biggest smoke blowers.
Everyone in the media assumed the cap would go down before the 2009-10 season. No one expected the NHLPA to use the 5% inflation due to the large amount of salary escrow involved. With this kicker used the cap went up 0.1 million. You can imagine what would've happened otherwise.
