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Old
10-05-2011, 03:30 PM
  #1
phillyfanatic
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Leverage LTIR or Daily Savings?

The Flyers dodged a gigantic bullet with the demotion of Schenn to the AHL for at least one day. His salary cap hit is now 1.65M instead of 3.1M. Phew. Now we are $65,795 under the salary cap with Walker, Laps and Couturier in the lineup.

The question: When Schenn comes back and Laps is put on LTIR, should we:

A. Stay as close to the cap as possible to leverage our LTIR (It only allows you to go OVER, it does not add to your cap). OR

B. Stay under the cap as much as possible with Laps on the books as each day we are under the cap, the amount under is added to the amount we are "under the cap". The more under you go the higher salary you can trade for at the trading deadline.

This is a difficult question. Curious to hear your thoughts.

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Old
10-05-2011, 03:54 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
The Flyers dodged a gigantic bullet with the demotion of Schenn to the AHL for at least one day. His salary cap hit is now 1.65M instead of 3.1M. Phew. Now we are $65,795 under the salary cap with Walker, Laps and Couturier in the lineup.

The question: When Schenn comes back and Laps is put on LTIR, should we:

A. Stay as close to the cap as possible to leverage our LTIR (It only allows you to go OVER, it does not add to your cap). OR

B. Stay under the cap as much as possible with Laps on the books as each day we are under the cap, the amount under is added to the amount we are "under the cap". The more under you go the higher salary you can trade for at the trading deadline.

This is a difficult question. Curious to hear your thoughts.
To state the obvious; the more banked Cap Space, the more can be spent on 'Rentals' and/or needed players as things pop up... So, that said, it makes sense to me to build up as much Banked Cap Space as possible... as long as it does not hurt the team on a game to game basis over the long haul -- I hope I put that across in a manner that conveys how I am seeing it.

Rathje was an albatross and I will never forget the anguish on Homer's face during the STH Town Meeting a couple seasons back after I questioned him on how they would handle the added Cap Space when Rathje was gone... and he went off on how Rathje hurt the team that year and how they could have went out and obtained a better Rental player that would have greatly helped their chances going into that postseason.

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Old
10-05-2011, 04:00 PM
  #3
mja
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I don't think we're going anywhere this year, so it really doesn't matter, but it makes more sense to me to bank the space. Come deadline you have that banked space and THEN you can LTIR Lappy and actually go out and get a really good rental player if the team is in a good playoff position.

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10-05-2011, 07:21 PM
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Couple of questions, because I think I must be missing something. Does it make a difference re: banked space whether Lappy is on LTIR or not? Going by the OP we're ~65K under the cap with Lappy, but if we LTIR him aren't we still ~65K under the cap since we can't bank that space? I do think there's a rule of some kind, because I seem to remember reading that you're better off waiting until you need the space to LTIR a guy.

Also...is there a reason why Lappy couldn't be sent down (in a "paper" move, obviously) so that his cap hit could be banked as well? I assume there's a rule covering that...maybe something about his being a 35+ contract?

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10-05-2011, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
Couple of questions, because I think I must be missing something. Does it make a difference re: banked space whether Lappy is on LTIR or not? Going by the OP we're ~65K under the cap with Lappy, but if we LTIR him aren't we still ~65K under the cap since we can't bank that space? I do think there's a rule of some kind, because I seem to remember reading that you're better off waiting until you need the space to LTIR a guy.

Also...is there a reason why Lappy couldn't be sent down (in a "paper" move, obviously) so that his cap hit could be banked as well? I assume there's a rule covering that...maybe something about his being a 35+ contract?
You can't send down 35+ contracts. Well you could, but you'd still take the cap hit for everything except, I believe, 100k.

In the simplest of terms, by definition if you are using LTIR AT ALL, you are not banking cap space. LTIR means you are exceeding the cap, which means you aren't under it, which means you aren't banking anything.

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10-05-2011, 07:31 PM
  #6
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A quick glance at capgeek shows we are just over 65k in space with Lappy NOT on LTIR. So if we want to call up Schenn at his 1.65 mill number, we would need to find just about an equal amount in cap space (minus the 65k).

Lappy could go on LTIR and account for a large chunk of Schenn's hit (because we'd be allowed to exceed), but we'd still need to make another move. If that happened, we would not be banking anything, because, again, we are using LTIR.

Edit: The only possible way I can see them calling up Schenn AND being truly under the cap, AKA banking cap space, is to send down Walker and roll with 6 D. Or they could replace Walker with Bartulis and lose either Nodl or Rinaldo.

Here we are, fielding a roster of 13 F and 7 D, while including Lappy and STILL being under the cap. So we'd bank space.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)
Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.250m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m)
Brayden Schenn ($1.650m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.845m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $1,402,500

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,239,762; BONUSES: $2,150,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $60,238


Last edited by DUHockey9: 10-05-2011 at 07:38 PM.
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Old
10-05-2011, 07:56 PM
  #7
mirimon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
A quick glance at capgeek shows we are just over 65k in space with Lappy NOT on LTIR. So if we want to call up Schenn at his 1.65 mill number, we would need to find just about an equal amount in cap space (minus the 65k).

Lappy could go on LTIR and account for a large chunk of Schenn's hit (because we'd be allowed to exceed), but we'd still need to make another move. If that happened, we would not be banking anything, because, again, we are using LTIR.

Edit: The only possible way I can see them calling up Schenn AND being truly under the cap, AKA banking cap space, is to send down Walker and roll with 6 D. Or they could replace Walker with Bartulis and lose either Nodl or Rinaldo.

Here we are, fielding a roster of 13 F and 7 D, while including Lappy and STILL being under the cap. So we'd bank space.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)
Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.250m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m)
Brayden Schenn ($1.650m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.845m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $1,402,500

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,239,762; BONUSES: $2,150,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $60,238
*cough*Shelley*cough*... I know, I know, it won't happen, but one can dream. After the suspension is served at least.

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Old
10-05-2011, 08:18 PM
  #8
DUHockey9
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
*cough*Shelley*cough*... I know, I know, it won't happen, but one can dream. After the suspension is served at least.
haha yea, that's why I didn't even suggest him. Sadly, it won't happen.

That, and Shelley doesn't make enough to solve the problem himself. Walker would still need to happen as well. (which I'm fine with, obviously.)


Here is my perfect world roster. Interchange your favorite cheap d-men and forwards for Barts and Rinaldo.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m)
Jakub Voracek ($2.250m) / Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Brayden Schenn ($1.650m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m)
Matt Read ($0.900m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.845m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Chris Pronger ($4.921m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $1,402,500

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,684,206; BONUSES: $2,150,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $615,794

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Old
10-05-2011, 08:29 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTU2fan View Post
Couple of questions, because I think I must be missing something. Does it make a difference re: banked space whether Lappy is on LTIR or not? Going by the OP we're ~65K under the cap with Lappy, but if we LTIR him aren't we still ~65K under the cap since we can't bank that space? I do think there's a rule of some kind, because I seem to remember reading that you're better off waiting until you need the space to LTIR a guy.

Also...is there a reason why Lappy couldn't be sent down (in a "paper" move, obviously) so that his cap hit could be banked as well? I assume there's a rule covering that...maybe something about his being a 35+ contract?
But for the 35+ Rule Lappy could merely retire and be off the books, not demotion needed... and Lappy being the type guy he is assures me he would retire if need be.

... But even if he were not a 35+ player he could NOT be waived down to the A because you cannot waive down injured players per the CBA... IIRC.

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Old
10-05-2011, 08:33 PM
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Can someone please point me to where in the CBA it allows for "banking", I can't seem to find that.

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10-05-2011, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Can someone please point me to where in the CBA it allows for "banking", I can't seem to find that.
There is no specific section on banking Cap space. Most of the information on Cap accounting can be found in Article 50 of the CBA.

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10-05-2011, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There is no specific section on banking Cap space. Most of the information on Cap accounting can be found in Article 50 of the CBA.
I'm reading. I can't figure out the basis for it, and i know it's viewed as a settled issue here, so was trying to figure out how it got settled the way it did.

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10-05-2011, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdalite View Post
But for the 35+ Rule Lappy could merely retire and be off the books, not demotion needed... and Lappy being the type guy he is assures me he would retire if need be.

... But even if he were not a 35+ player he could NOT be waived down to the A because you cannot waive down injured players per the CBA... IIRC.
No. 35+ contracts do not disappear because of retirement. They don't disappear for ANTYHING. LTIR or nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Can someone please point me to where in the CBA it allows for "banking", I can't seem to find that.
I don't believe it ever uses the term. It's more implied in the method in which it is all calculated.

In the simplest terms, without trying to write a book:

It has to do with the cap being calculated daily. There is a "daily limit" that is a soft cap. It is merely an average. You are technically allowed to exceed it.

So if the daily limit is 100k (making up numbers). And every day for the first half of the season you are 10k under. You can then go 10k OVER, everyday for the second half of the season. This is why people say you "bank" that space.

This is where contract "proration" comes into affect. And this is why if you are using LTIR, you are never "banking" because you are already over.

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10-05-2011, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No. 35+ contracts do not disappear because of retirement. They don't disappear for ANTYHING. LTIR or nothing.



I don't believe it ever uses the term. It's more implied in the method in which it is all calculated.

In the simplest terms, without trying to write a book:

It has to do with the cap being calculated daily. There is a "daily limit" that is a soft cap. It is merely an average. You are technically allowed to exceed it.

So if the daily limit is 100k (making up numbers). And every day for the first half of the season you are 10k under. You can then go 10k OVER, everyday for the second half of the season. This is why people say you "bank" that space.

This is where contract "proration" comes into affect. And this is why if you are using LTIR, you are never "banking" because you are already over.
I understand how it works in theory, I just don't see how the language allows for that. Someone here was apparently able to explain it enough that it's established as fact, so I'm trying to find that information so I understand the reason for it.

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Old
10-05-2011, 08:51 PM
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waiving shelley makes things easier

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Old
10-05-2011, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No. 35+ contracts do not disappear because of retirement. They don't disappear for ANTYHING. LTIR or nothing.



I don't believe it ever uses the term. It's more implied in the method in which it is all calculated.

In the simplest terms, without trying to write a book:

It has to do with the cap being calculated daily. There is a "daily limit" that is a soft cap. It is merely an average. You are technically allowed to exceed it.

So if the daily limit is 100k (making up numbers). And every day for the first half of the season you are 10k under. You can then go 10k OVER, everyday for the second half of the season. This is why people say you "bank" that space.

This is where contract "proration" comes into affect. And this is why if you are using LTIR, you are never "banking" because you are already over.
Ooooh! Thank you for explaining this! I thought the daily cap was a hard line that couldn't be crossed, so it didn't make sense to me that you could be below it earlier in the season and somehow go over it later in the season just because you hadn't gone over.

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10-05-2011, 10:32 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No. 35+ contracts do not disappear because of retirement. They don't disappear for ANTYHING. LTIR or nothing.
With all due respect you misunderstood what I said, "but for the 35+ rule" meaning if not for the 35+ rule he could merely retire... I agree 100% on what you said there... 35+ players have to say on the books as Cap hits no matter what.

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10-05-2011, 11:57 PM
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God, here we go again. Really really quickly, the cap is computed on a per day basis. Every single day it is computed. Every player on the roster is counted along with LTIR players. You use up cap money on a per day basis. The total maximum amount of "average day cap dollars" for all players = amount of remaining cap divided by the number of days remaining in the season. If you do not spend up to the cap limit each day, the amount of player cap dollars you can have on the roster goes up. You are only permitted to exceed the cap on any computed day if you have cap $$$'s on LTIR that equal or exceed the amount you are over the cap limit.


While it is not written specificaaly this way, you can "bank" cap dollars to permit you go about the 63.4 mil cap limit at the end of the season. However, if you get an injury during the season and have to place a player on LTIR (Lappy, and any other player that may get injured even for just a month or so) then those players first eat up any "banked" cap dollars you have saved up before you are allowed to exceed the cap.

Honestly, if you aren't really good with math then you will probably have a very difficult time understanding it. I wrote a spread sheet for the Flyers cap situation a few years ago and I DO understand it very well but it's honestly kind of tough to explain over a message board. I could write it out on paper for you and explain it a lot better in person but here it's just been too hard to explain (I had a tough time 3 years ago going into it, we argued over where the Flyers were and how to compute it for liek a month on here).


It's safe to say that the Flyers WILL spend right up to the max and NOT "bank" any cap dollars for any rentals at the end of the season. Under Holmgren we try to ice the very best possible team from game 1 (ok, game 2 this year, lol) rather then NOT spending to the max and not icing the best possible team just so we can add a rental at the end of the season. Lappy will go on LTIR, we will essentially "ignore" his cap hit, and we will spend right up to the 63.4 mil cap limit every day (or as close as we can get).

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Old
10-06-2011, 12:41 AM
  #19
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I dont think we can carry 7 defenseman when we recall Schenn. Walker will go back down. Hes already cleared waivers so he wouldnt have to go thru that process again.

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10-06-2011, 02:23 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
A quick glance at capgeek shows we are just over 65k in space with Lappy NOT on LTIR. So if we want to call up Schenn at his 1.65 mill number, we would need to find just about an equal amount in cap space (minus the 65k).

Lappy could go on LTIR and account for a large chunk of Schenn's hit (because we'd be allowed to exceed), but we'd still need to make another move. If that happened, we would not be banking anything, because, again, we are using LTIR.

Edit: The only possible way I can see them calling up Schenn AND being truly under the cap, AKA banking cap space, is to send down Walker and roll with 6 D. Or they could replace Walker with Bartulis and lose either Nodl or Rinaldo.

Here we are, fielding a roster of 13 F and 7 D, while including Lappy and STILL being under the cap. So we'd bank space.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)
Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.250m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m)
Brayden Schenn ($1.650m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.845m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) / Ian Laperriere ($1.166m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)
Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $1,402,500

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,239,762; BONUSES: $2,150,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $60,238
Bartulis has to pass through re-entry waivers if called up. Holmgren did that several times but I still think its unlikely that he will be on the NHL roster this season.

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Old
10-06-2011, 06:27 AM
  #21
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CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m)
Jaromir Jagr ($3.300m) / Jakub Voracek ($2.250m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m)
Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m) / James Van Riemsdyk ($1.654m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m)
Andreas Nodl ($0.845m) / Brayden Schenn ($1.650m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Tom Sestito ($0.550m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Braydon Coburn ($3.200m) / Matt Walker ($1.700m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.737m)

GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.666m) / Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)

CARRY-OVER BONUS PENALTY: $1,402,500

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,083,095; BONUSES: $2,805,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $676,905

This would be so much easier if they waive Shelley and put Lappy on LTIR. Still not much cap left but this way you keep Schenn and Walker. I know it probably won't happen cause Paul doesn't want to get rid of Shelley plus Sestito would have to pass through waivers. You could always swap out Sestito for Rinaldo but then you don't have a heavyweight (then again its still in the air if Sestito can fight heavys imo).

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Old
10-06-2011, 07:00 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
No. 35+ contracts do not disappear because of retirement. They don't disappear for ANTYHING. LTIR or nothing.



I don't believe it ever uses the term. It's more implied in the method in which it is all calculated.

In the simplest terms, without trying to write a book:

It has to do with the cap being calculated daily. There is a "daily limit" that is a soft cap. It is merely an average. You are technically allowed to exceed it.

So if the daily limit is 100k (making up numbers). And every day for the first half of the season you are 10k under. You can then go 10k OVER, everyday for the second half of the season. This is why people say you "bank" that space.

This is where contract "proration" comes into affect. And this is why if you are using LTIR, you are never "banking" because you are already over.
First off all, you can place a player with a 35+ contract on LTIR and receive the exemption. So while technically the Cap hit doesn't disapear, you can use the exemption to replace the player if it puts you over the limit.

And you have the bank space part wrong. You can't over the Upper limit for the second half of the Season just because you banked cap space in the first half of the Season. And it's not how proration comes into affect. The only time a team can go over the Upper Limit, is with the LTIR exemption

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10-06-2011, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
First off all, you can place a player with a 35+ contract on LTIR and receive the exemption. So while technically the Cap hit doesn't disapear, you can use the exemption to replace the player if it puts you over the limit.
That's what he said. The options for a 35+ player are LTIR or nothing (stay on roster).

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
And you have the bank space part wrong. You can't over the Upper limit for the second half of the Season just because you banked cap space in the first half of the Season. And it's not how proration comes into affect. The only time a team can go over the Upper Limit, is with the LTIR exemption
You're misunderstanding then. If you are under the cap daily by 30k for 50 days, you've effectively banked $1.5M to use. You can carry any roster forward from any point in the season if by doing so you wouldn't exceed the cap with that current roster every single remaining day.

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10-06-2011, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by might2mash View Post
That's what he said. The options for a 35+ player are LTIR or nothing (stay on roster).


You're misunderstanding then. If you are under the cap daily by 30k for 50 days, you've effectively banked $1.5M to use. You can carry any roster forward from any point in the season if by doing so you wouldn't exceed the cap with that current roster every single remaining day.

No, I'm not misunderstanding anything. I know how the Cap works inside and out. He clearly said if your 10K under for the first half of the Season, you then can go over by 10K the second half. That is incorrect. You can't go over with the exception of the LTIR exemption.

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10-06-2011, 07:21 AM
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Bartulis has to pass through re-entry waivers if called up. Holmgren did that several times but I still think its unlikely that he will be on the NHL roster this season.
Yeah, I think Bartulis NHL career is put on hold for a season. Hopefully he avoids injuries and has a full season this time around and finds his confidence again so that he can come back and compete for a place again next year.

Substitute Bartulis for Gustafsson and have Lilja as the 7th d, but keep the rest of DU's second roster, that would be our best option imo. Unless it becomes obvious that Couturier isn't ready just yet.

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