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Kings vs. Sabres - 10/08/11 - POST GAME THOUGHTS

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Old
10-11-2011, 06:32 PM
  #201
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Because I disagreed with the notion that somehow Red Berenson is responsible for Jack Johnson's poor defensive play three and a half years into his nhl career.

Is that not allowed?

Should Lombardi be referred to from now on as "he who shall not be named"?
Well "hockey people" know there is no coaching going on at UM, the same "hockey people" who also know that Mike Murphy has a vendetta against the Kings and the same "hockey people" who know Gary Bettman is out to get Dean Lombardi.

Lou Lamoriello has never had a problem drafting or signing UM players, but then again he may simply not be a "hockey person", same with Bob Gainey, not a "hockey person"

I wonder if the Kings are going to blame the WHL for the failures of the 1st round picks in 07 and 08. Talk about lack of development.

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10-11-2011, 08:17 PM
  #202
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Well "hockey people" know there is no coaching going on at UM, the same "hockey people" who also know that Mike Murphy has a vendetta against the Kings and the same "hockey people" who know Gary Bettman is out to get Dean Lombardi.

Lou Lamoriello has never had a problem drafting or signing UM players, but then again he may simply not be a "hockey person", same with Bob Gainey, not a "hockey person"

I wonder if the Kings are going to blame the WHL for the failures of the 1st round picks in 07 and 08. Talk about lack of development.
LOL I realize you are a Michigan fan through and blue, but obviously Lombardi didn't have a problem TRADING FOR a UM player, right?

Just because he said that Johnson was allowed free reign at the UM, which, he was, doesn't mean he can't, doesn't recognize talent etc,

It would be a curious study to take the NHL players from UM compared to other colleges, and look how long it took for each to develop...the results of that would either lend weight to what he said, or expose it.

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10-11-2011, 08:28 PM
  #203
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Well "hockey people" know there is no coaching going on at UM, the same "hockey people" who also know that Mike Murphy has a vendetta against the Kings and the same "hockey people" who know Gary Bettman is out to get Dean Lombardi.

Lou Lamoriello has never had a problem drafting or signing UM players, but then again he may simply not be a "hockey person", same with Bob Gainey, not a "hockey person"

I wonder if the Kings are going to blame the WHL for the failures of the 1st round picks in 07 and 08. Talk about lack of development.
I think this whole argument is terribly tired as well as pointless, but when you look at the UM defensemen currently in the NHL, not the greatest evidence for Red.

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10-11-2011, 08:31 PM
  #204
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sj,

Just curious how many times you saw Johnson play in college and what you base your comments about having free reign and never playing defense.

Have you ever wondered why Johnson has thrived at best on best competitions, including the 2010 Olympics? Maybe his talents do not mesh well with the Kings system, I don't know.

And once again, UM has more players in the NHL than any other college program. Now some people here will pretend like UM gets so much more talent than programs like NoDak, Notre Dame, Minnesota etc. But it really isn't the case. Michigan's NHL alumni list speaks for itself.

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10-11-2011, 08:41 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Because I disagreed with the notion that somehow Red Berenson is responsible for Jack Johnson's poor defensive play three and a half years into his nhl career.

Jack is developing every year in the NHL (by leaps and bounds) and is developing at the same rate dmen have developed throughout the history of hockey. We have seen some great young dmen come up and set the world on fire at an early age so we have been spoiled, but there really isn't that many of them. The ones that do come up great are generaly defecient in one aspect of the game and it catches up to them.

Then we have guy likes Jack, Yandle, Hedman, Letang, etc who have not capped out and have developed correctly. Hedman has been reffered to as amognst the greatest defenseman prosects ever but he's been a slow learner. Mike Green has been allowed to basically be what Jack was in college his entire career but just now has had to sacrafice offense to be competent in it's own end.

Throw the 3 1/2 years out of the window and just let continue to develop. He's still so young in age and development.

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10-11-2011, 10:26 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
sj,

Just curious how many times you saw Johnson play in college and what you base your comments about having free reign and never playing defense.

Have you ever wondered why Johnson has thrived at best on best competitions, including the 2010 Olympics? Maybe his talents do not mesh well with the Kings system, I don't know.

And once again, UM has more players in the NHL than any other college program. Now some people here will pretend like UM gets so much more talent than programs like NoDak, Notre Dame, Minnesota etc. But it really isn't the case. Michigan's NHL alumni list speaks for itself.
The only thing that Michigan's NHL alumni list does is tell of the ability of Michigan to RECRUIT TALENT.

I am sure you have heard this before, "Doesn't matter where you play, if you are talented, they will find you." Pretty much describes Michigan and how they recruit.

If you really want to delve into how they DEVELOP players, specifically defenseman, since, say 1990 to give some perspective there, take a look at Michigan's defenseman that have graduated to the NHL, and other program's defenseman that have graduated to the NHL, and you will find a pretty big disparity there.

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10-11-2011, 10:38 PM
  #207
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Johnson somewhat reminds of Brad Stuart or Eric Brewer; guys that were highly regarded draft picks who never lived up to the hype but still became solid defensemen.

JJ has great physical ability and a well rounded skill set, but physical prowess isn't what makes defensemen great at this level. Decision-making, anticipation, confidence and assertiveness are what distinguishes elite dmen.

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10-11-2011, 10:53 PM
  #208
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Jack is developing every year in the NHL (by leaps and bounds) and is developing at the same rate dmen have developed throughout the history of hockey. We have seen some great young dmen come up and set the world on fire at an early age so we have been spoiled, but there really isn't that many of them. The ones that do come up great are generaly defecient in one aspect of the game and it catches up to them.

Then we have guy likes Jack, Yandle, Hedman, Letang, etc who have not capped out and have developed correctly. Hedman has been reffered to as amognst the greatest defenseman prosects ever but he's been a slow learner. Mike Green has been allowed to basically be what Jack was in college his entire career but just now has had to sacrafice offense to be competent in it's own end.

Throw the 3 1/2 years out of the window and just let continue to develop. He's still so young in age and development.
I think he has improved from when he first broke into the league. The +/- numbers may not agree with that statement but then again I suspect that his TOI has increased, but have not done the leg work to confirm that.

All that being said I stand by what I said originally.

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10-11-2011, 11:06 PM
  #209
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4 days off between games ****ing blows

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10-11-2011, 11:07 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I think he has improved from when he first broke into the league. The +/- numbers may not agree with that statement but then again I suspect that his TOI has increased, but have not done the leg work to confirm that.

All that being said I stand by what I said originally.
His minutes and responsibilities have increased exponentially year-by-year.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...johnsja02.html

His plus-minus is largely a result of him learning on the job. It's the growing pains of bringing in a young defenseman to the NHL. It's the toughest job in the sport.

I'll point you to two other US born defensemen who came up through the USNTDP on the Oilers who have had their ups and downs: Tom Gilbert and Ryan Whitney. They broke in at 24 and 22 respectively.

Jack was two years younger at 20 when he made his NHL debut. Although he made his debut five seasons ago, he really only has three full seasons of NHL experience.

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10-11-2011, 11:20 PM
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His minutes and responsibilities have increased exponentially year-by-year.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...johnsja02.html

His plus-minus is largely a result of him learning on the job. It's the growing pains of bringing in a young defenseman to the NHL. It's the toughest job in the sport.

I'll point you to two other US born defensemen who came up through the USNTDP on the Oilers who have had their ups and downs: Tom Gilbert and Ryan Whitney. They broke in at 24 and 22 respectively.

Jack was two years younger at 20 when he made his NHL debut. Although he made his debut five seasons ago, he really only has three full seasons of NHL experience.
Well, Tom Gilbert is trash, so lets not go there. He also is playing on a back to back last place team. That isnt the case with Johnson. Curious that another young d with a high draft pedigree seems to be doing just fine defensively in the Kings system. Its quite a contrast actually.

Whitney has had his ups and downs, but when you look at Johnson he never gets his head close to being above water, and if you just look at the numbers, he is sinking.

I think that personal viewing tells me a bit of a different story than the numbers, as in I do believe he has shown some improvement defensively and a marked improvement offensively, but that isnt really what we are talking about here.

I think there are higher expectations for Johnson because everyone can see the sheer amount of talent this kid has. So we wonder why that doesnt translate into better decision making and defensive upside. It may be a case of what you see is what you get.

I can recall Paul Coffey giving me and other Oiler fans fits back in the day when he would make gaffes that would make Johnson look like Lidstrom. But we rolled with the punches because he would go end to end the next shift. Maybe Johnson is that type of player?

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10-11-2011, 11:32 PM
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Well, Tom Gilbert is trash, so lets not go there. He also is playing on a back to back last place team. That isnt the case with Johnson. Curious that another young d with a high draft pedigree seems to be doing just fine defensively in the Kings system. Its quite a contrast actually.

Whitney has had his ups and downs, but when you look at Johnson he never gets his head close to being above water, and if you just look at the numbers, he is sinking.

I think that personal viewing tells me a bit of a different story than the numbers, as in I do believe he has shown some improvement defensively and a marked improvement offensively, but that isnt really what we are talking about here.

I think there are higher expectations for Johnson because everyone can see the sheer amount of talent this kid has. So we wonder why that doesnt translate into better decision making and defensive upside. It may be a case of what you see is what you get.

I can recall Paul Coffey giving me and other Oiler fans fits back in the day when he would make gaffes that would make Johnson look like Lidstrom. But we rolled with the punches because he would go end to end the next shift. Maybe Johnson is that type of player?
Can you stop talking like you have watched him his entire career. It's obvious you have not and everyone has called you on it. Jack has in no way been sinking in any aspect of his game. He's gradually progressing. Middle of last year Murray called Jack the Kings best all around dman, and he was on both end of the ice. You are just taking in a few games and listening to a couple posters who have had an adamant stance against him for years because he was billed as a tough guy who will come in a be the calder as a dman

Drew and Jack are not comparable. They both have had different paths. They both have their strengths.

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10-11-2011, 11:49 PM
  #213
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The only thing that Michigan's NHL alumni list does is tell of the ability of Michigan to RECRUIT TALENT.

I am sure you have heard this before, "Doesn't matter where you play, if you are talented, they will find you." Pretty much describes Michigan and how they recruit.

If you really want to delve into how they DEVELOP players, specifically defenseman, since, say 1990 to give some perspective there, take a look at Michigan's defenseman that have graduated to the NHL, and other program's defenseman that have graduated to the NHL, and you will find a pretty big disparity there.
I am going to be very interested in seeing how much polish Forbort has on his game when he comes out of North Dakota. North Dakota is a program that Dean has praised, the other one not so much.

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10-11-2011, 11:49 PM
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Can you stop talking like you have watched him his entire career. It's obvious you have not and everyone has called you on it. Jack has in no way been sinking in any aspect of his game. He's gradually progressing. Middle of last year Murray called Jack the Kings best all around dman, and he was on both end of the ice. You are just taking in a few games and listening to a couple posters who have had an adamant stance against him for years because he was billed as a tough guy who will come in a be the calder as a dman

Drew and Jack are not comparable. They both have had different paths. They both have their strengths.
If you wanna have a discussion, you need to stop attacking him cause he is an "oilers fan"...that doesn't make what he says wrong, and kills discussion not only here but all over these boards. If anything your to deep in the forest to see the trees.

The "pro-JJ" crowd keep saying "oh he keeps improving!" when really has offensive numbers have improved but he still makes way to many glaring defensive mistakes. Even with somewhat protected mins and a strong defensive defensemen next to him.

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10-12-2011, 12:01 AM
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4 days off between games ****ing blows
Time off between games is never good for Jack's reputation.

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10-12-2011, 12:02 AM
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Can you stop talking like you have watched him his entire career. It's obvious you have not and everyone has called you on it. Jack has in no way been sinking in any aspect of his game. He's gradually progressing. Middle of last year Murray called Jack the Kings best all around dman, and he was on both end of the ice. You are just taking in a few games and listening to a couple posters who have had an adamant stance against him for years because he was billed as a tough guy who will come in a be the calder as a dman

Drew and Jack are not comparable. They both have had different paths. They both have their strengths.
I have been saying that he has progressed. Do you have a comprehension problem? As far as your insistence on characterizing me as a know nothing phony who couldnt differentiate a coaster from a hockey puck I would happily put my knowledge/experience of the game up against yours any day of the week.

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10-12-2011, 12:04 AM
  #217
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If you wanna have a discussion, you need to stop attacking him cause he is an "oilers fan"...that doesn't make what he says wrong, and kills discussion not only here but all over these boards. If anything your to deep in the forest to see the trees.

The "pro-JJ" crowd keep saying "oh he keeps improving!" when really has offensive numbers have improved but he still makes way to many glaring defensive mistakes. Even with somewhat protected mins and a strong defensive defensemen next to him.
There is no attacking him for anything. He is talking as if he has an intricate knowldge of what has been going on, yet it's apparent where he's building his argument. Not only in his view on Jack but his view on Drew Doughty. He straight up told me I was wrong on Doughty and everyone backed up my claim. We are making it clear to him that he doesn't quite have a firm grasp on the Kings just yet since it is important to the building of the debate.

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10-12-2011, 12:08 AM
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There is no attacking him for anything. .
This is true. No Name is a ninja. If had had attacked IATL, he would be dead 20 times over in a Denny's parking lot.

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10-12-2011, 12:13 AM
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I have been saying that he has progressed. Do you have a comprehension problem? As far as your insistence on characterizing me as a know nothing phony who couldnt differentiate a coaster from a hockey puck I would happily put my knowledge/experience of the game up against yours any day of the week.
You have been much more detailed than that. You saying he progressed has been a blanket statement, yet your detailed opinions of the Kings have been wrong and you have been called on it by many of us. Telling us who have been watching our team for many years that we are wrong is antagonizing and insulting. It doesn't sit well.

Your hockey knowledge means only means that you are old and I'm young, all the while having absolutely nothing to do with the debate. You have made a habbit of diverting the topic in this thread when you have been in a situation to defend your comments. Nobody likes a know it all that doesn't know it all.

Nobody has questioned you hockey knowledge and I don't appreciate you saying that in an attempt to build emotional support in your favor. If someone just saw that post they would have to take that as fact and it casts me or others who have taken you to task in bad light.

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10-12-2011, 12:17 AM
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This is true. No Name is a ninja. If had had attacked IATL, he would be dead 20 times over in a Denny's parking lot.
If he was a chick and carrying an exacto knife she'd be in a world of pain. I'd collect her teeth, take her leftovers, cut a canadian leaf in her cheek and not a single **** will be given.


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10-12-2011, 12:20 AM
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You have been much more detailed than that. You saying he progressed has been a blanket statement, yet your detailed opinions of the Kings have been wrong and you have been called on it by many of us. Telling us who have been watching our team for many years that we are wrong is antagonizing and insulting. It doesn't sit well.

Your hockey knowledge means only means that you are old and I'm young, all the while having absolutely nothing to do with the debate. You have made a habbit of diverting the topic in this thread when you have been in a situation to defend your comments. Nobody likes a know it all that doesn't know it all.

Nobody has questioned you hockey knowledge and I don't appreciate you saying that in an attempt to build emotional support in your favor. If someone just saw that post they would have to take that as fact and it casts me or others who have taken you to task in bad light.
Well, so far I have been called a moron, told I dont watch Kings games, dont have any idea what Im talking about and been called a f**.

Meanwhile there has been more than one poster that has agreed with my take on JJ. Do they clearly not watch Kings games either? Ive probably been watching the Kings since before you were likely even born. If you are talking about respect, its probably a good idea to give some if you are expecting it back. Either we can discuss things without putdowns and the old "you dont watch the games" garbage or we cant. If you choose not to engage me in a respectful manner then I will choose to no longer engage you in discussion.

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10-12-2011, 12:30 AM
  #222
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There is no attacking him for anything. He is talking as if he has an intricate knowldge of what has been going on, yet it's apparent where he's building his argument. Not only in his view on Jack but his view on Drew Doughty. He straight up told me I was wrong on Doughty and everyone backed up my claim. We are making it clear to him that he doesn't quite have a firm grasp on the Kings just yet since it is important to the building of the debate.
Funny cause I agree with him on both. JJ hasn't progressed nearly as much as his fan boys around here would have you believe. And he was 100% right on Doughty, only problem is, he made his feelings known when the Kings and Doughty happen to be in negotiations. And the board did the typical "o he really isn't even that great" "With JJ progressing like he is, I bet he could take over the #1 mins" (laughable and ironic considering this discussion) "From what I've seen of Voinov I wonder what DD would get in a trade"

I'd argue he has a better grasp on any of these discussions, because he isn't emotional about the team like so many around here, leaving his vision unclouded. (that said I bet he is man crushin on Nug' right now, and wouldn't have the best judgement there)

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10-12-2011, 12:39 AM
  #223
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Well, so far I have been called a moron, told I dont watch Kings games, dont have any idea what Im talking about and been called a f**.

Meanwhile there has been more than one poster that has agreed with my take on JJ. Do they clearly not watch Kings games either? Ive probably been watching the Kings since before you were likely even born. If you are talking about respect, its probably a good idea to give some if you are expecting it back. Either we can discuss things without putdowns and the old "you dont watch the games" garbage or we cant. If you choose not to engage me in a respectful manner then I will choose to no longer engage you in discussion.
If you have been called any of those things they have been moderated. Like I said, it looks like you are basing your opinions off a few games watched and the opinion of a couple Kings fans that have made their Johnson hate known for years. I have said that three times now. I could care less about you respecting me. I do care about you making claims that I have disrespected you in an attempt to have a bunch of white knights come to your rescue. When you open up a line of debate you need to have some sort of factual evidence and expect a counter argument. You have done neither.

In regards to you watching the Kings when I was born, again you are deverting. What does that have anything to do with Jack Johnson?

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10-12-2011, 12:46 AM
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10-12-2011, 12:46 AM
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Been waiting for an appropriate time to step in, and there really is no proper time I suppose.

No more off topic. Simple as that.

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