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Old
10-11-2011, 02:16 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
agree on everything except the BB comment. If he were a stock he would be a screaming sell. With Miller, Lindberg and Newbury in the system, Boyle should be dealt while the rest of the league thinks he has offensive talent. Otherwise, we should get comfortable with the reality that he will likely never see 10 goals a season again and hope that he gets better on faceoffs. If he can do that he will be an ideal 4th line center/penalty killer and that is fine. But the romance with his offensive output from last Nov. and Dec. has got to end. He does not belong anywhere except centering our 4th line.
So what happens when you trade Boyle and his stock continues to rise, and all of the players you listed fail to make the NHL?

You don't trade players in that situation unless you're getting an upgrade back in the deal. Until those prospects make an impact in the NHL, they're not making anyone expendable.

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10-11-2011, 02:22 PM
  #77
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On the subject of Wolski, his $3.8M salary, and his position in the doghouse already.....

I, for one, miss Michal Roszival - and this team does too.

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10-11-2011, 02:25 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
This team is trying to build an identity and Wolski is one of the last guys here (With EC and, to some extent, Gaborik) who does not fit it.

When you have a team where every player busts it on a gamely basis that attitude becomes infectious and a tradition for new players breaking in. (Bourque, Hagelin, Kreider)

This is why I advocates a Gaborik for Dustin Brown trade, a Wolski for Wheeler trade, ect. Size, strength, effort, defensive responsibility, these win games. Skill helps, but look at the performance of Russia recently in the Olympics and world championships. Finesse-only players have a very limited role in this league.
I'm certainly glad you are not the GM then.

I don't know how close minded people are to view "strength" and "grinding" as the end all of hockey. What are you going to do when you can only roll three lines of grinders? Your top-6 / top-9 would consist of Dubinsky, Callahan, Wheeler, Brown, Boyle, Fedotenko, Prust, etc. Really? I can assure you, a forward core of 12 Ryan Callahan's would do nothing. Look at every team that is competitive. They have "elite skill" forwards. Let's make this clear, no amount of work ethic can replace "elite skill" talent. End of story. It helps! It certainly helps. But at the end of the day you need the players to put the puck in the net.

You never, EVER, trade a 40+ goal scorer for Ryan Callahan 2.0 (Dustin Brown), ESPECIALLY when you already have a team full of grinding forwards. You need "skill" players in the line up. Gaborik is one of them most responsible, hardest back checking 40+ goal / 80+ point players in the NHL. You would give that up, for a player who will score 25 goals, 50 points, and throw hits? Essentially, all Dustin Brown is, is a better version of Ryan Callahan (due to more production).

I'm sorry, but I just don't get the fans anymore. Apparently everyone here has really bought into the Tortorella mentality. Blue collar work ethic, nothing else.

There is a reason why teams like the Penguins, Flyers, Blackhawks, etc, are competitive year after year. Because they have the role players (Flyers had Richards, Carcillo, Hartnell / Briere, Gagne, Carter) -- (Penguins had Dupuis, Fedotenko, Talbot, Staal / Crosby, Malkin, Hossa) -- (Blackhawks had Toews, Bolland, Byflugien / Kane, Sharp, Hossa). Notice, it's not Callahan, Callahan, Callahan / Callahan, Callahan, Callahan. Because that won't win you a Stanley Cup.

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10-11-2011, 02:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
On the subject of Wolski, his $3.8M salary, and his position in the doghouse already.....

I, for one, miss Michal Roszival - and this team does too.
Really? Team defense has been the least of my concerns since he left.

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10-11-2011, 02:39 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Really? Team defense has been the least of my concerns since he left.
Ive never felt completely comfortable with the defense (even when Rozy was here). I always felt it would be like a collapsing house of cards if anything ever happened to Staal, so Im obviously even more concerned now.

It would definitely be nice to have a veteran on the roster capable of eating 20+ minutes of ice-time right now. The strain being put on Girardi is borderline ridiculous at this point.

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10-11-2011, 02:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The problem is I'm not entirely sure Tortorella has that kind of capacity as a coach. It's becoming more and more apparent, at least to me, that he bases the majority of his ice-time decisions on the proverbial "jam" factor. A player is judged based on what he does away from the puck, not what he does with the puck.

Now, while I agree with that mentality to an extent, you have to give skill players an opportunity to generate offense. Not to mention Wolski seems to be a little bit fragile mentally. Would it behoove the team to cut him a little slack in the hopes that he can find some consistency along the way? I think so, but that's just my opinion.
We can certainly judge WW based on what he does with the puck... he wouldn't fare much better unfortunately.

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10-11-2011, 02:52 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ive never felt completely comfortable with the defense (even when Rozy was here). I always felt it would be like a collapsing house of cards if anything ever happened to Staal, so Im obviously even more concerned now.

It would definitely be nice to have a veteran on the roster capable of eating 20+ minutes of ice-time right now. The strain being put on Girardi is borderline ridiculous at this point.
Even without Staal the defense hasn't been a huge issue thus far. I've never been a big fan of Rozsival, so he's not the guy I'd want back there as a veteran presence. Especially at a $5M cap hit.

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10-11-2011, 03:39 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
That's all well and good, but busting your ass doesn't necessarily translate into goals, or into wins for that matter. Good teams have a balance between skill and grit, and the best teams have guys who bring both to the table. Unfortunately we don't really have those guys. While Dubinsky and Callahan are hard working and gritty players, they aren't "skilled" guys. They play an honest brand of North/South hockey, but you can't play dump and chase with every line and think you're going to wear down every other team in the league.

Teams like Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, LA, etc, are all good because they have guys who are talented with the puck, as well as the guys who can make things happen in the dirty areas, and they compliment each other well. It's not all skill or all grit, it's both. A team of skill players will eventually go cold and will be too predictable. On the flip side, a team full of blue collar players will eventually go south when the bounces aren't going their way.

Its easier for Callahan to go out and hit everything that moves, block a shot, and have a "great" shift than it is for Gaborik to go out and score a goal. Callahan gets a pass if he isn't scoring because he brings other things to the table, but that value never trends in the other direction. Goal scoring is tangible, while heart is not. It's easier to be critical of the tangible than the metaphysical.
This is by far the best post I read so far this season. 110% agreed with you.

And how sad and boring would this game bean,if there was just grit,dump and chase? The finesse players is the one who entertain us.


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10-11-2011, 04:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
I'm certainly glad you are not the GM then.

I don't know how close minded people are to view "strength" and "grinding" as the end all of hockey. What are you going to do when you can only roll three lines of grinders? Your top-6 / top-9 would consist of Dubinsky, Callahan, Wheeler, Brown, Boyle, Fedotenko, Prust, etc. Really? I can assure you, a forward core of 12 Ryan Callahan's would do nothing. Look at every team that is competitive. They have "elite skill" forwards. Let's make this clear, no amount of work ethic can replace "elite skill" talent. End of story. It helps! It certainly helps. But at the end of the day you need the players to put the puck in the net.

You never, EVER, trade a 40+ goal scorer for Ryan Callahan 2.0 (Dustin Brown), ESPECIALLY when you already have a team full of grinding forwards. You need "skill" players in the line up. Gaborik is one of them most responsible, hardest back checking 40+ goal / 80+ point players in the NHL. You would give that up, for a player who will score 25 goals, 50 points, and throw hits? Essentially, all Dustin Brown is, is a better version of Ryan Callahan (due to more production).

I'm sorry, but I just don't get the fans anymore. Apparently everyone here has really bought into the Tortorella mentality. Blue collar work ethic, nothing else.

There is a reason why teams like the Penguins, Flyers, Blackhawks, etc, are competitive year after year. Because they have the role players (Flyers had Richards, Carcillo, Hartnell / Briere, Gagne, Carter) -- (Penguins had Dupuis, Fedotenko, Talbot, Staal / Crosby, Malkin, Hossa) -- (Blackhawks had Toews, Bolland, Byflugien / Kane, Sharp, Hossa). Notice, it's not Callahan, Callahan, Callahan / Callahan, Callahan, Callahan. Because that won't win you a Stanley Cup.

The only reason that wouldn't win a cup is because you'd have 8 guys playing out of position.

If you had four forward lines of Dubinsky-Morrow-Brown with an acceptable defense and Henrik Lundqvist in goal, you would absolutely win cups. Probably more than one.

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10-11-2011, 04:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by fredrikstad View Post
This is by far the best post I read so far this season. 110% agreed with you.

And how sad and boring would this game bean,if there was just grit,dump and chase? The finesse players is the one who entertain us.
I do agree with this and I think my original post, in which TRXJW quoted, I said how we do need guys like Gabby on our team.

The reason Gabby can be forgiven on the occasional backcheck is because he puts up numbers and on one shift he can change the momentum or outcome of an entire game.

My point being, this doesn't really apply to Wolski. While finesse player like Gaborik can get away with not being blue collar, Wolski truly cannot. the reason being, his skill level, may be near Gaboriks, but the way he puts it together on the ice isn't even comparable.

If you're not going to play blue collar (and I have no problem with this), then you damn well better be putting up numbers or at least making things happen offensively when you are on the ice.

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10-11-2011, 05:04 PM
  #86
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A cup contending team needs skill players for sure. But the skill players on cup winners are more consistent and engaged than Wolski. And some skill players, such as Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Toews, etc., can contribute in other ways if they happen to go through a scoring drought, whether it be through winning faceoffs or superb defensive play. I doubt the rosters of recent cup winning teams include many players that are the equivalent of Wolski.

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10-11-2011, 06:55 PM
  #87
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its ironic.

i see alot of enver lisin in mr wolski.

tons of offensive talent. not enough jam including substandard play away from the puck (according to the torts doctrine), somewhat fragile mental makeup. and most of all, not nearly enough finish.

get ready for the torts death spiral.

1. torts the clown tells player, "you wanna play, you play my way or you sit".

2. player is told to play 2 way game not natural to said (offensive) player.

3. said player attempts to make a change to game to please dictator...err... coach.

4. change results in player thinking too much and not feeling game. "skating on egg shells with death grip on stick".

5. change doesnt work resulting in reduced confidence and minimal production.

6. reduced production results in drop to 4th line.

game over.


i see bad things on the horizon for wojtek. hes gonna get "lisin'd"

i still believe, as was said earlier in this thread, there is a place on this roster for offensive players that may not have a ryan callahan type 2 way game. torts cant have a team full of brandon prust clones.

even though, i fear, thats exactly what he wants.



p.s. the norwegian midget shouldnt be buying a house any time soon either.....

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10-11-2011, 07:07 PM
  #88
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The guy has been nursing a sore groin since camp. Let him heal up and eventually replace Duby on the top line. Put Duby back where he belongs and we might have two good lines again.

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10-11-2011, 07:18 PM
  #89
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Any chance CBJ would take Wolski for Vinny straight up?

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10-11-2011, 07:59 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
its ironic.

i see alot of enver lisin in mr wolski.

tons of offensive talent. not enough jam including substandard play away from the puck (according to the torts doctrine), somewhat fragile mental makeup. and most of all, not nearly enough finish.

get ready for the torts death spiral.

1 [sic...]
There's a reason Tortorella treats players like Wolski the way he does. What coach is going to deal with a player half-assing it out there and constantly making inefficient plays? He doesn't have to be Ryan Callahan or Brandon Prust on the forecheck, but he has to have some responsibility, and with the way he plays on a regular basis, it's quite clear he does not understand this.

The problem is that he actually has the ability to be a valuable player. He's a solid skater, a fantastic puck handler, has great vision, and is 6'3, 205; he just does not utilize that frame to his advantage. He doesn't need to be a wrecking ball out there, but if he could learn how to use his size to shield, control, and work his way with the puck in the offensive zone, I guarantee his production would skyrocket.

I don't understand the Lisin reference. I'd sooner reference Zherdev, because the difference between W2/Z and Lisin is that the former are actually somewhat good hockey players. Lisin is just an awful fit for NHL hockey. No hockey sense whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The guy has been nursing a sore groin since camp. Let him heal up and eventually replace Duby on the top line. Put Duby back where he belongs and we might have two good lines again.
I'd say it's the opposite. Richards/Gaborik is already a relatively non-physical pairing to begin with, where is the grit and strength on that line? Richards' game revolves around the cycle, you need good board players to perfect it. Dubinsky may very well be one of the best "boardworkers" in the entire NHL. He may not be as physically gifted as Wolski when it comes to shooting/passing/vision, but he's a smarter and better hockey player. Even if that oine would be successful without the cycle, it'd be a nightmare defensively. Richards/Gaborik are competent in their own end, but Gaborik can get lazy, and Richards can be a turnover machine. Wolski, to put it bluntly, just doesn't know how to play the defensive side of the game.

On a line with Anisimov and Callahan, Wolski fits in perfect; he doesn't hold as much responsibility as he would on the top line, he can focus on his offensive game, and Anisimov/Callahan can do the "dirty work" for him. Wolski/Richards/Gaborik would be too much a one-dimensional line; it may look good on the surface, but in reality, it's doomed to fail.

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10-11-2011, 08:41 PM
  #91
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The only reason that wouldn't win a cup is because you'd have 8 guys playing out of position.

If you had four forward lines of Dubinsky-Morrow-Brown with an acceptable defense and Henrik Lundqvist in goal, you would absolutely win cups. Probably more than one.
Delusional. If that was a 1st line in the NHL, the team would go no where, sorry. That would be a bubble team, that IF made the playoffs, would be eliminated in the first round. Heck, I'd love Morrow on my team, not as a 1st line center. Nor the player my entire team is built around.

You still didn't account for the fact that every team that wins a Stanley Cup has a diverse line up, consisting of both deep and elite talent. You need Briere, Gaborik, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, etc, type players. You need Kesler, Toews, Bergeron, etc, type players. You need Maholtra, Betts, Gaustad, etc, players.

If you built a team with every line being built like Dubinsky-Morrow-Brown, assuming each line would be a lesser version of the next (1st>2nd>3rd>4th) it would not be a terribly successful team.

I never thought I'd actually say this, but I'm glad Sather is GM.

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10-11-2011, 08:42 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
its ironic.

i see alot of enver lisin in mr wolski.

tons of offensive talent. not enough jam including substandard play away from the puck (according to the torts doctrine), somewhat fragile mental makeup. and most of all, not nearly enough finish.

get ready for the torts death spiral.

1. torts the clown tells player, "you wanna play, you play my way or you sit".

2. player is told to play 2 way game not natural to said (offensive) player.

3. said player attempts to make a change to game to please dictator...err... coach.

4. change results in player thinking too much and not feeling game. "skating on egg shells with death grip on stick".

5. change doesnt work resulting in reduced confidence and minimal production.

6. reduced production results in drop to 4th line.

game over.


i see bad things on the horizon for wojtek. hes gonna get "lisin'd"

i still believe, as was said earlier in this thread, there is a place on this roster for offensive players that may not have a ryan callahan type 2 way game. torts cant have a team full of brandon prust clones.

even though, i fear, thats exactly what he wants.



p.s. the norwegian midget shouldnt be buying a house any time soon either.....
I don't understand all of this talk about Torts wanting players to be responsible like its a big, mean conspiracy. Its a must and every coach in the NHL wants every player who isn't an offensive dynamo to play a responsible two way game. Thats how you win. How have we come to a point where we lift up passionless floaters as the victims and complain about a coach who demands a high level of two way play - calling him a dictator? He wants his team to be competitive - he lifts up hard working players as examples and punishes lackluster play - therefore...he's a dictator? Sounds like he's being a coach. A coach's job isn't to yield to popular opinion - the bench is not a democracy. He is the leader of the team and WW has done jack so he gets poor minutes.

A crappy player might be being punished for poor play ( but, most likely, his groin injury is keeping him out) - what is so objectionable about this idea? Nobody seems to be arguing that WW has been an effective player so far, whether because of injury or not, so why do you care so much that he's not getting time?

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10-11-2011, 10:25 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by msv957 View Post
Wolski has a lot of talent and great size. However, for some reason the guy doesn't get it.. I thought a coach like Torts would get Wolski to play to his potential but not sure anymore
this. Wolski is a talented player, he just cant get it done consistanly. During the games he has flashes of brightness, but it never translate into the breakout season every team has been looking for him to produce the last four seasons

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10-11-2011, 10:44 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Delusional. If that was a 1st line in the NHL, the team would go no where, sorry. That would be a bubble team, that IF made the playoffs, would be eliminated in the first round. Heck, I'd love Morrow on my team, not as a 1st line center. Nor the player my entire team is built around.

You still didn't account for the fact that every team that wins a Stanley Cup has a diverse line up, consisting of both deep and elite talent. You need Briere, Gaborik, Stamkos, Kovalchuk, etc, type players. You need Kesler, Toews, Bergeron, etc, type players. You need Maholtra, Betts, Gaustad, etc, players.

If you built a team with every line being built like Dubinsky-Morrow-Brown, assuming each line would be a lesser version of the next (1st>2nd>3rd>4th) it would not be a terribly successful team.

I never thought I'd actually say this, but I'm glad Sather is GM.

You listed a team with 12 Callahan's as a hypothetical example, but now I have to downgrade my lines?

My equally impossible example was 4 Browns, 4 Morrows, 4 Dubinskys with our D and goaltender. If you calculate goals per ice time played, factor in PP time, ect, you're looking at a team that scores 270+ goals. Don't believe me? Take the goals per minutes played, then give each player 15 minutes a game for a 60 minute total (PK time loss offset by PP point time and overtime minutes)

270+ goals and that isn't even beginning to factor in how having a team with 12 defensively responsible forwards would do to the goals allowed. You're telling me the team wouldn't win because it doesn't have an Ilja Kovalchuk or a Marian Gaborik, who might be an upgrade of 10 goals over a guy like Brown with an offset of a crappy defensive game and noexistant playoff history?

And i'm the crazy one. We don't need Wolskis. We need Milan Lucis and Brad Marchands.

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10-11-2011, 10:45 PM
  #95
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I think people need to relax. Yes, Wojtek has struggled during preseason and looked out of place the first game of the season. However, we are only TWO, yes TWO games into the season and everyone is already up his ass. The whole team has played like crap excluding Lundqvist and McD. We need to start lighting the scoreboard up. Chemistry needs to kick in and then we will see what happens.

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10-11-2011, 11:04 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
its ironic.

i see alot of enver lisin in mr wolski.

tons of offensive talent. not enough jam including substandard play away from the puck (according to the torts doctrine), somewhat fragile mental makeup. and most of all, not nearly enough finish.

get ready for the torts death spiral.

1. torts the clown tells player, "you wanna play, you play my way or you sit".

2. player is told to play 2 way game not natural to said (offensive) player.

3. said player attempts to make a change to game to please dictator...err... coach.

4. change results in player thinking too much and not feeling game. "skating on egg shells with death grip on stick".

5. change doesnt work resulting in reduced confidence and minimal production.

6. reduced production results in drop to 4th line.

game over.


i see bad things on the horizon for wojtek. hes gonna get "lisin'd"

i still believe, as was said earlier in this thread, there is a place on this roster for offensive players that may not have a ryan callahan type 2 way game. torts cant have a team full of brandon prust clones.

even though, i fear, thats exactly what he wants.



p.s. the norwegian midget shouldnt be buying a house any time soon either.....
That's why Wolski is on his 3rd team by age 24 and Lisin couldn't find a spot in the NHL. Did you ever think it's maybe the players and not so much the coach?

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10-11-2011, 11:17 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
its ironic.

i see alot of enver lisin in mr wolski.

tons of offensive talent. not enough jam including substandard play away from the puck (according to the torts doctrine), somewhat fragile mental makeup. and most of all, not nearly enough finish.

get ready for the torts death spiral.

1. torts the clown tells player, "you wanna play, you play my way or you sit".

2. player is told to play 2 way game not natural to said (offensive) player.

3. said player attempts to make a change to game to please dictator...err... coach.

4. change results in player thinking too much and not feeling game. "skating on egg shells with death grip on stick".

5. change doesnt work resulting in reduced confidence and minimal production.

6. reduced production results in drop to 4th line.

game over.


i see bad things on the horizon for wojtek. hes gonna get "lisin'd"

i still believe, as was said earlier in this thread, there is a place on this roster for offensive players that may not have a ryan callahan type 2 way game. torts cant have a team full of brandon prust clones.

even though, i fear, thats exactly what he wants.



p.s. the norwegian midget shouldnt be buying a house any time soon either.....
Yeah, Enver Lisin was such a superb player. That's why so many GM's were knocking on his door after the 2010 season....or they didn't because Torts ruined his career?

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10-12-2011, 12:22 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
You listed a team with 12 Callahan's as a hypothetical example, but now I have to downgrade my lines?

My equally impossible example was 4 Browns, 4 Morrows, 4 Dubinskys with our D and goaltender. If you calculate goals per ice time played, factor in PP time, ect, you're looking at a team that scores 270+ goals. Don't believe me? Take the goals per minutes played, then give each player 15 minutes a game for a 60 minute total (PK time loss offset by PP point time and overtime minutes)

270+ goals and that isn't even beginning to factor in how having a team with 12 defensively responsible forwards would do to the goals allowed. You're telling me the team wouldn't win because it doesn't have an Ilja Kovalchuk or a Marian Gaborik, who might be an upgrade of 10 goals over a guy like Brown with an offset of a crappy defensive game and noexistant playoff history?

And i'm the crazy one. We don't need Wolskis. We need Milan Lucis and Brad Marchands.
(a) Gaborik is NOT bad defensively. As I've stated before, he is a responsible back checker and smart with the puck. It no doubt comes from years of playing in a defense first system in Minnesota, where this "offset of crappy" defense comes from, I'm not sure.

(b) You don't need to have the physical presence of Lucic to be a quality two-way forward.

(c) The team you described, having four lines of Dubinsky-Morrow-Brown caliber players in unrealistic due to salary cap restriction. No team in the NHL would be able to afford paying forwards $4-6 million on the 3rd and 4th line.

(d) Where did this 270+ goal figure come from? Take a look at a team that flirts with 270+ goals (a fictional figure right now since no team did it last year). They don't have Dubinsky/Callahan/Morrow/Brown, etc, playing on their top line.

Last year, the Flyers scored 259 with Briere, Carter, Richards, Giroux, Hartnell, Zherdev, Pronger, Timmonen, etc. Detroit scored 261 with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Bertuzzi, Lidstrom, etc. Chicago scored 258 with Hossa, Toews, Sharp, Kane, Keith, etc. Vancouver scored 262 with the Art Ross winner, and another player who finished top-5 in scoring, and one who finished top-5 in goals scored with D. Sedin, H. Sedin, Kesler, Burrows, Edler, etc.

Look at Vancouver. They won the Presidents Trophy and went to the Stanley Cup Finals with TWO FINESSE players, lacking the physical presence of Lucic, lead the way. Sure, Kesler had a fantastic season as a two way forward, but he wasn't a 90+ point, 100+ point forward. Do you think they would have won the Presidents Trophy replacing those two with Callahan and Dubinsky? You're honestly going to tell me that? Sure, the Sedins excel in their board work and control play, but they're far from the "blue collar work ethic" "physical presence" players that you are describing.

You truly think, the team you have constructed, of only grinding players, would be able to produce at the same level as the teams I just described? The teams that have a mix of elite talent, responsible forwards and role players? You don't think there is a place in the NHL for players like Patrick Kane, Marian Gaborik, Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Kovalchuk, Stamkos, Spezza, Carter,
Marleau, etc.?

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that. And I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just saw Kovalchuk, that guy you claimed "coasts" win the game for the Devils the other day. Guess what, if he was on our team, cut to the front of the net, shot it on net, roofed his own rebound, etc, we would have won one of those two games. And you would pass up on that elite gamebreaking talent to have the "blue collar" "physical presence"?

If your team had a bunch of elite snipers, sure, I'd say diversify. If your team has a bunch of hard working schlubs like our team, lacking high end talent, you better bring in those upper echelon producing forwards to be a competitive team (regardless of "blue collar" or "physical"). That's the reality of it, and I'm not quite sure how you don't see that.

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10-12-2011, 01:00 AM
  #99
Crease
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Wolski is this year's Frolov/Zherdev/Higgins/Hossa.

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10-12-2011, 03:38 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Wolski is this year's Frolov/Zherdev/Higgins/Hossa.
Jozef Balej??

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