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08-26-2004, 09:02 PM
  #101
Mizral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
But would a team not take a chance on him if he had the 2 way deal... which is really the point?
Sure, because at least then if he doesn't work out (which seems more likely than him working out at this point for next season, judging by his play last year), you can shuttle him off to the minors - then again, he'd have to pass through waivers again to do that. Still, it happens in the NHL often with players like him. If he was in the waiver draft, then they woldn't have to put him on waivers again to send him down I don't believe.

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08-26-2004, 09:03 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
First off, let's not insult one another, thome. We just disagree on the situation of Oilers management - big whup.

Anyhow, a list of overpaid Oilers players, as it seems like you're looking for one:

Eric Brewer - $2.65 million
Steve Staios - $2.0 million
Ty Conklin - $1.5 million
Brad Isbister - $1.45 million
Georges Laraque - $1.4 million
Cory Cross - $1.1 million

*Please note that several of these overpayments are only marginal, but it still does add up*

I'm sure you will take issue to some, but I can find comparable or better players than all of them that make significantly less cash - and not just a few either.

As for Rita versus Shvidki - I cannot believe you are using defensive play as an arguement. Rita is immensly lazy in his own zone, not to mention is a very inconsistant player as well. He's not soft (that's one thing I admit Rita has going for him, he's quite strong), but he has shown time and time again to lack the level of skill that you'd expect out of a former first round draft pick. I personally see no difference between these two players, or any other similar players such as Fedor Fedorov in Vancouver, Ivan Novoseltsev in Phoenix, or Nikita Alexeev in Tampa Bay. I have my doubts any team would take him for free considering he's got that one-way deal.
well, first off I never called you a name, I discounted your arguement. As for the Rita thing, his grit advantage is a BIG factor for the comparison, as well as Rita acknowledging he needs to improve defensively, while Shvidki hasn't. If Shvidki was in Edmonton instead of FLA, not only would be be in the minors still, but he wouldn't even have gotten up the barely notable call ups Jani has.

Finaly, and mainly, the money issue. Lowe did good work to find a loop-hole that enabled him to sign Izzy for less then his qualifying offer. I'll concede the point that Lowe has given a little more to some players then they deserve - but I will ask you to find another team in the NHL other then the Wild (who don't pay anybody practicly) who have made less overpayments then Lowe has. I think you will have a tough time doing so. So critisizing him overpaying some guys by a little bit is asking him for perfection, which is unreasonable.

But anyways, the point still stands, even if Lowe had 6 million in cap room he could use on Nedved if wanted, if he over paid Nedved because it would take that for him to over rule the wife issue, then that IMO would be a poor call. You don't spend money simply because you could/can. We've seen several times that paying simply because you can is a brutal idea. That's what the Leafs and Rangers do.

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08-26-2004, 09:10 PM
  #103
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thome, I think we agree for the most part that Nedved would not have been the cure that ails the Oilers.

However what does disturb me that when Lowe traded for Nedved and while he was here, Nedved was clearly given the reigns to be the #1 centreman, and I do not forget that virtually everyone on this board felt that resigning him at $3.5 million was not only reasonable, but something Lowe absolutely must do it solve this centre crisis.

Forgive those same fans who think Nedved is worth $3.5 million to be annoyed when Lowe can't get him signed when they see he takes less than $3 per season in Phoenix (supposedly).

That's the problem. Lowe gives us a glimpse of what apperantly his 'plan' is, then totally goofs it. For instance, around the time of the Comrie trade, it looked clear he was building for the future. Then he signs Oates and trades for Nedved. Well what the hell is that? Lowe is trying to do two things at once, and he's accomplishing nothing in the process!

This is the gripe I have had with Lowe for years now, dating back to his insistance on keeping Salo around 2 years ago (let's not open that can of worms any more than we have to, please). He keeps Salo around, yet dumps Niinimaa. Keeps Salo, yet dumps Comrie. Gets rid of Salo, dumps Nedved. What the hell is he trying to do? Does anyone know? For someone who is trying to build for 2005 and beyond, why did he sign Oates in the first place? Why did he keep Salo at that expense? Why did he trade for Nedved? These are not 'Long term' moves or non-moves by Lowe. It's this two-headed GM style of running a franchise that concerns me, not so much not signing Nedved itself.

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08-26-2004, 09:12 PM
  #104
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I should also add, I wouldn't worry so much about all this (minorly overpaid players and direction of the GM) if the results on the ice were there. It seems a lot of you guys are talking as if the Oilers made the playoffs last year or are showing signs of becoming an elite team. Maybe it's all about perspective. But personally, I see the Oilers on the decline in the conference at the moment, not on the incline, and that's a very scary proposition for a team this young.

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08-26-2004, 09:18 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
thome, I think we agree for the most part that Nedved would not have been the cure that ails the Oilers.

However what does disturb me that when Lowe traded for Nedved and while he was here, Nedved was clearly given the reigns to be the #1 centreman, and I do not forget that virtually everyone on this board felt that resigning him at $3.5 million was not only reasonable, but something Lowe absolutely must do it solve this centre crisis.

Forgive those same fans who think Nedved is worth $3.5 million to be annoyed when Lowe can't get him signed when they see he takes less than $3 per season in Phoenix (supposedly).

That's the problem. Lowe gives us a glimpse of what apperantly his 'plan' is, then totally goofs it. For instance, around the time of the Comrie trade, it looked clear he was building for the future. Then he signs Oates and trades for Nedved. Well what the hell is that? Lowe is trying to do two things at once, and he's accomplishing nothing in the process!

This is the gripe I have had with Lowe for years now, dating back to his insistance on keeping Salo around 2 years ago (let's not open that can of worms any more than we have to, please). He keeps Salo around, yet dumps Niinimaa. Keeps Salo, yet dumps Comrie. Gets rid of Salo, dumps Nedved. What the hell is he trying to do? Does anyone know? For someone who is trying to build for 2005 and beyond, why did he sign Oates in the first place? Why did he keep Salo at that expense? Why did he trade for Nedved? These are not 'Long term' moves or non-moves by Lowe. It's this two-headed GM style of running a franchise that concerns me, not so much not signing Nedved itself.
Just my opinion, but I think a large part of that 'two-headed GM style' comes from an ownership group that demands the near impossible: Keep the budget low enough that the team stays in the black or at least break even, but at the same time play well enough to make the playoffs and lose in 6 so they can get that 3rd home date...plus give the illusion of being competitive and on the rise so that the season ticket base doesn't erode.

Also, I think last year was a bit of a special case due to it being the season before 'armageddon'. If you look at every other year of Lowe's tenure before last season, he didn't make deals for UFA types like Oates and Nedved.

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08-26-2004, 09:20 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
Nedved took less to sign elsewhere, maybe because his wife didn't want to move to Edmonton.

He wanted 10 million over three years to sign in EDMONTON!. Too much, goodbye.

Conroy and Langow are the same player basically, Calgary didn't improve.

All that being said, Lowe needs to do something because we need a centre. If and when next season starts and nothing is done. Lowe failed.
so it was because of his wife? That *****.

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08-26-2004, 09:22 PM
  #107
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I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. Lowe has always said building for the future while staying competitive in the playoff race. Lowe gave up a wopping nothing for Oates and a guy who's was a fringe top 20 prospect center for us for Nedved. It's not like he went out and traded Pouliot or Lynch. He traded a guy nobody is counting on - he was simply a BIG wild card that if he turned out, yippy do we have a third liner, if not, oh well, very expected. Lowe has NEVER EVER made a deal that set us back in our building for the future. He has been very consistent if anything.

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08-26-2004, 09:23 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Newspapers have never been wrong before?

I'm just telling you, what is exactly in the CBA when it comes to waivers. Shvidki was not eligible, based on the criteria provided in the CBA...

edit:

oops... I thought I saw jan. as his birthday... it's november. He would have been classified as a 20 year old when he played his first game.

Another difference is the over $1mil he makes. If you are picking a guy up off waivers, and you try and send him down, the other team is just going to pluck him back off again. Rita at $700k is a much better pickup than Shvidki at $1.025 mil.

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08-26-2004, 09:25 PM
  #109
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Did edmonton offer more money?

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08-26-2004, 09:28 PM
  #110
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We believe he was offered more, but we can't really say for sure I guess.

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08-26-2004, 09:33 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
I should also add, I wouldn't worry so much about all this (minorly overpaid players and direction of the GM) if the results on the ice were there. It seems a lot of you guys are talking as if the Oilers made the playoffs last year or are showing signs of becoming an elite team. Maybe it's all about perspective. But personally, I see the Oilers on the decline in the conference at the moment, not on the incline, and that's a very scary proposition for a team this young.
man, ive agreed with you twice in one day now!! lol

yeah the oilers arent exactly shooting up the western conference.... i would be mildly shocked (albeit pleasently) if they finished anywhere higher than 8th next year... and like you said, stagnating for a team this young is NOT a good thing

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08-26-2004, 09:35 PM
  #112
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Once again...

guys, it's August 26th, with a lockout on the way...

a little patience should be in order.

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Old
08-26-2004, 09:37 PM
  #113
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Ya, but the reason it's been stagnating is due to two things.
1)departed vets
2)Comrie

the Oilers have constantly lost important players to their team every year, it's the reality of not being able to resign everybody. The big loss last year was Comrie, which I know wasn't for the same reasons as the others, but a loss none-the-less.

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08-26-2004, 09:54 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Ya, but the reason it's been stagnating is due to two things.
1)departed vets
2)Comrie

the Oilers have constantly lost important players to their team every year, it's the reality of not being able to resign everybody. The big loss last year was Comrie, which I know wasn't for the same reasons as the others, but a loss none-the-less.
Why did those vets leave, and if Comrie has the kind of franchise-destroying effect
on a team, Lowe may as well quit right now.

thome, you make a lot of excuses for Lowe, but it seems it all comes back - to the majority of people today at least - to Lowe not making the move. You can chirp on all the other reasons all you want, but in the end the buck stops at the head honcho. It's always been something else with Lowe. Blame Salo, Blame Comrie, Blame other GM's, Blame the CBA, Blame Gary Bettman, Blame Petr Nedved, but don't for a minute question Kevin Lowe as a General Manager.

Virtually all the same issues faced in Edmonton are faced in Calgary, and as Lowetide mentiond earlier in this thread, Sutter is improving the Flames it seems every month. Why can't Lowe do something similar?

A) The CBA
B) Ownership Group
C) Mike Comrie

I just can't decide!!!

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08-26-2004, 09:56 PM
  #115
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Wow, its been quite a while since I've been this unhappy with the oilers organization. When the heck do we become competitive in not only on in the standings but attracting FA's? There have been a few ecxeptions of people taking less money ie. Smyth to stay but are we ever going to hang onto or sign a high profile player? I've been an oilers fan since birth but I honesly think this non-signing hurts the most. Then to miss out on Lankow like that .....Crap

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08-26-2004, 10:00 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
Why did those vets leave, and if Comrie has the kind of franchise-destroying effect
on a team, Lowe may as well quit right now.

thome, you make a lot of excuses for Lowe, but it seems it all comes back - to the majority of people today at least - to Lowe not making the move. You can chirp on all the other reasons all you want, but in the end the buck stops at the head honcho. It's always been something else with Lowe. Blame Salo, Blame Comrie, Blame other GM's, Blame the CBA, Blame Gary Bettman, Blame Petr Nedved, but don't for a minute question Kevin Lowe as a General Manager.

Virtually all the same issues faced in Edmonton are faced in Calgary, and as Lowetide mentiond earlier in this thread, Sutter is improving the Flames it seems every month. Why can't Lowe do something similar?

A) The CBA
B) Ownership Group
C) Mike Comrie

I just can't decide!!!
WHY DID THOSE VETES LEAVE?!?!! ARE YOU ******* KIDDING ME!??!!? If you don't know that answer you should ask somebody to find you a nice institute to help you learn how to reckognize the extremely obvious. Now, I never said that Comrie's loss for the team was a team devestating loss (as the Oilers were one win away from making the playoffs). Everybody reckoginzes that the team has stagnated over the last, oh, five years - but the fact that we've had to trade/lose SO many high level players because of money is far and away the biggest reason. Yes, Sutter is improving his team as we speak, and kudos to him for doing a very respectable job of it, but don't act like he's working some miracle. He's going to be flirting with a 40 million pay roll once Iggy is signed!

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08-26-2004, 10:01 PM
  #117
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Frankly Miz, none of us are in charge, and none of us know the details of everything involved.

Some make excuses for him, others heap blame on him... it's a never ending battle.

Cripes, your continual argument is that the team is no good, and Lowe hasn't made the moves necessary to make the team a champion... then some of us counter with the fact that the team is being built for the post-CBA and for the future.

Then of course you bring up the Nedved trade, talking about how if he's building for the future, why would he give up something for Nedved, which is a now move.

The fact of the matter is, the Oilers gave up a lower end prospect, a goaltender they had no room for, and a 2nd round pick. The only thing worth anything there is the 2nd round pick. They got the services of Nedved and Markkanen for a 2nd round pick. Continually Lowe has said that he will get a young, and competetive team to the CBA and go from there... he has done that, and that is why you will continually find people who will side with him.

He's done what he said he will. If the price isn't to his liking, he won't make a deal. If it is, he will make a deal.

It's not complicated.

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08-26-2004, 10:04 PM
  #118
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thank you dawgbone. People forget that the Oilers goal hasn't been to increase salary and become a contender. We'll see what happens with the CBA, and that will determine what happens with the Oilers from here on in.

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08-26-2004, 10:11 PM
  #119
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This whole thing leaves a bad taste. Hows the Team Canada Camp doing now with Gretz and Lowe up in the stands glaring at each other. On the other hand could there be a little collusion there?

Im not going to lose any sleep over Nedved. He turned out to be what we all assumed in the first place, a rental player. We still have Markannen

Phoenix better get used to being booed in E-Town. Stay puff marshmallow forwards Hull, Nedved and Comrie.

Kudos to Calgary for bringing their team back to respectability. May the rivarly continue. Its up to Lowe to do his part now. Bring someone in that will lead this team. Any Sutter hating centers out there with some skill?

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08-26-2004, 10:20 PM
  #120
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Remember that Lowe does NOT talk about possible trades

Quote:
Originally Posted by guymez
I too, think Langkow is an upgrade from Conroy. Thier +/- is quite similar, but Langkow has been a more consistant goal scorer in his career, and he is 5 years younger. As for the Oilers acquiring one of the other UFA's, I heard Howson on 1260, while I was driving back from Airdrie, and he said the Oilers have no interest in any other UFA's. Thats fine with me, but having Langkow go to the Flames is a major disappointment. IMO he was a better fit for the Oil than any of the remaining UFA's. Howson also said the Oilers were quite prepared to start the season with thier current lineup. That was clearly the most disappointing thing I have heard all day.
So I wouldn't assume that Lowe will not make a trade. As someone says it is Aug 26th and even if the season was going to start on time and if you truly believe it is I have some great beach front property in the Sahara to sell you.

There is lots of time left, I think this board is going into panic mode WAY to early.

Talk to me when the season starts (whenever that is) and we still have the same centres.

Nedved didn't want to play here, he signed in Phoenix for what he was offered in Edmonton. Only one person on this board thought Lowe should pay Neved the 10 million he wanted to play here. So lets move on and stop panicking.

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08-26-2004, 10:24 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
So lets move on and stop panicking.
AMEN SPAZ and I agree with you 110%

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08-26-2004, 10:27 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Once again...

guys, it's August 26th, with a lockout on the way...

a little patience should be in order.
I think the unhappiness with this particular situations goes back a little further than that. The lockout is looming now, but Lowe has not seriosuly addressed any of the team's most glaring weaknesses in probably about 3 seasons (beyond trading for a #1 centre when the team was already pretty much out of the playoff race). Losing out on Nedved, though really not his fault, is just one more example of how the magic has really just been smoke and mirrors to this point.

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08-26-2004, 10:33 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Harnock
I think the unhappiness with this particular situations goes back a little further than that. The lockout is looming now, but Lowe has not seriosuly addressed any of the team's most glaring weaknesses in probably about 3 seasons (beyond trading for a #1 centre when the team was already pretty much out of the playoff race). Losing out on Nedved, though really not his fault, is just one more example of how the magic has really just been smoke and mirrors to this point.
But if anyone has listened to Lowe, this shouldn't be a suprise.

He'll make a deal if the price is right for him. And he isn't going to mortgage a lot of the future for a little success in the now. It's always been about getting the young competetive team to the CBA.

Seriously addressing the centre issue now doesn't do anything if it costs major pieces of the future... especially with the financial insecurity that was going on.

I honestly can't fathome why anyone is suprised... if we can't seem to keep our best players because of finances, is it any shock that management is reluctant to go out and grab a guy that may be only a short term fix if the price to get him isn't right?

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08-26-2004, 10:34 PM
  #124
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Hmm...

I know that the papers have talked about Boston's GM staying on the sidelines. I believe he's gambling and hoping for a salary cap - and its possible result - which could mean an influx of free agents entering the market. This would mean that there would be fish to grab and perhaps Lowe is hoping to snag one of those?

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08-26-2004, 10:35 PM
  #125
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Yes and NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_Harnock
I think the unhappiness with this particular situations goes back a little further than that. The lockout is looming now, but Lowe has not seriosuly addressed any of the team's most glaring weaknesses in probably about 3 seasons (beyond trading for a #1 centre when the team was already pretty much out of the playoff race). Losing out on Nedved, though really not his fault, is just one more example of how the magic has really just been smoke and mirrors to this point.
He certainly hasn't addressed the centre situation since Comrie left but the other weaknesses IMO he has tried to address.

Two years ago we all talked about how weak we were in the back end, this has clearly been addressed, and we have two dman in Lynch and Woywitka (acquired by trade) that are NHL ready or very close to it.

Salo has been replaced by a tandem of Conklin and Markannen. IMO he took too long to address the goaltending situation and that cost us a playoff spot.

IMO though we have stockpiled a lot of young talent, it is time to parlay some of that to shore up the centre position.

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