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Old
10-12-2011, 08:13 AM
  #126
GWOW
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
These aren't excuses.

Torts and Richards and probably the entire team wants to get back to the "normal life".

If they look like garbage from Saturday on out, then there are no excuses: we are just bad.

However, I don't think this will be the case, but we'll see.
I think they'll be fine as well. i just think its disconcerting to literally see the exact issues that plagued this team last season reappear in the openers.

Poor starts to periods...missing the net...awful power play...giving up late goals...

For the life of me, I have no idea how the Rangers can look as bad as they did in just the 2nd game of the season. I can handle a loss. i can't handle 58 minutes of uninspired play. We saw this problem last year and in 2010 as well.

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10-12-2011, 08:20 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I'll revisit this post in December, but are people making excuses for the losses already? Rangers are supposed to be taking that next step to being an elite team. There are no more excuses. The Bruins won the Division and Cup without their best offensive player.

As for the rangers, they have one of the best goalies in the league.

They have one of the game's best playmakers.

They have one of the game's best snipers.

They have one of the game's best two-way forwards.

They have one of the league's best group of defensive defensemen.

The talent is there. That's why this team was able to score 6 and 7 goals in a game last year. Too bad they have NEVER been consistent with their offense.

The power play has been an abortion. It was an abortion in 2009, in 2010, in 2011, and its been an abortion in the preseason and through two games.

This is Torts' 4th year as coach (3rd from the start). If the Rangers are a .500 team in late December, it's time for a change.

Enough with the excuses.
Spot on--I like this post.

I'm not one for a revolving coach door, but Tortorella has a lot of explaining to do if this season ends as a disappointment. Enough about his effing "system." I can't listen to it anymore.

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Old
10-12-2011, 08:49 AM
  #128
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I like the guy. Maybe it's just my personality, but I love his fieriness. His post game interviews I could care less about. Who the hell wants to face those piranha after a loss? Besides once he "watches the tape" you'll get a good interview the next day. If I do have to criticize, like a lot of you, the constant line juggling is frustrating. He clearly doesn't have much patience. But on the other hand, the man wants results!

I don't know, I think he's an excellent coach.

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10-12-2011, 09:07 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I'll revisit this post in December, but are people making excuses for the losses already? Rangers are supposed to be taking that next step to being an elite team. There are no more excuses. The Bruins won the Division and Cup without their best offensive player.

As for the rangers, they have one of the best goalies in the league.

They have one of the game's best playmakers.

They have one of the game's best snipers.

They have one of the game's best two-way forwards.

They have one of the league's best group of defensive defensemen.

The talent is there. That's why this team was able to score 6 and 7 goals in a game last year. Too bad they have NEVER been consistent with their offense.

The power play has been an abortion. It was an abortion in 2009, in 2010, in 2011, and its been an abortion in the preseason and through two games.

This is Torts' 4th year as coach (3rd from the start). If the Rangers are a .500 team in late December, it's time for a change.

Enough with the excuses.
People are overreacting to two overtime losses against good teams during what was and is a nightmarish road trip. Anybody involved in sports knows that long road trips can disrupt a team during a season and result in shoddy play. it's not excuses it's common sense. You don't fly all over Europe and miss practices and expect to compete with the teams that are practicing and comparitively more rested and yet they DID compete they came home with 1 wins worth of points! That's important to me it says a lot. If we're pulling in points off of good teams in conditions like this and missing an elite defensive defenseman then jesus what are we going to be like with all our guys and once Richards gets chemistry?

If this is 2-3 weeks down the road, 10-12 games into the season then yea I'd understand the complaining. Two games in, we got half the available points, we did it against GOOD teams and we did it in conditions where anyone with common sense knew it was going to adversely affect our start to the year especially when one of our most important pieces is brand new to the team and has no chemistry yet. Sry I think the complaining here is just not warranted at all.

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Old
10-12-2011, 09:44 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Puckface NYR View Post
Since he tookover for Renney this team has done a 360 and looks ten times better down the line.
What exactly has this team accomplished under John Tortorella? His team's haven't outperformed her predecessor.

Really Torts supporters point to subjective categories that please them, because results don't actually support anything.

And that's fine, cause I"m sure most of you believe that the results will come. But at what point? If this team doesn't get past the first round this year, what will the excuse for the guy be then? We need a PMD? We need another top left winger? How many coaches in the new NHL under a salary cap system have a team constructed with everything they need? Pretty much none. The coach needs to put his players in a position to succeed. Something that Torts is absolutely awful with.

I'll never understand how people can say that a coach who weeds out talent and can only work with his kind of players is a good coach.

A good coach adapts to his personnel and plays to their strengths. He makes his players better. That is the mark of a good coach.


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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Adapt to what?!?! What was he supposed to adapt to? During his time here we have been weeding out the bad contracts he had inherited due to Sather's bad signings. He hasnt had a true number one center until now. He has had young teams with little experience that have made it to the postseason because they find way to wins under his coaching and system.

Two games and this is the discussion we're having? TWO!....Honestly, I'm not dramatic (not that anyone will say I'm being as such) BUT THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. Two games in against very good western conference teams overseas with a lineup that was without their best defenseman. They played the best line in the league. The Kings might have the deepest forward unit when it comes to talent and threats.

Some of you need to get a grip.
What part of the whole this has nothing to do with two games thing didn't you get? Torts hasn't just been the coach for two games, you know that right? This is his 4th season now.

He hasn't been able to succeed because of the bad contracts? Didn't his predecessor go farther than he did with all of those bad contracts on the team?

Who was his predecessor's number on center again?

There were no young players on our team before he got here? Weird, I didn't know Cally, and Dubi, and Staal got here when he did.

And again, I don't think any of us criticizing the guy are talking about two games. But since you want to make excuses for their play over there, maybe you could explain why they didn't even show up two consecutive days?

Talk about outrageous.

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Old
10-12-2011, 09:48 AM
  #131
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Guess that was a Freudian slip up there but I didn't mean to call Torts her.

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10-12-2011, 10:01 AM
  #132
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My biggest concern about Tortorella, and I made this point when he was brought in as well, is that he has shown little capacity to adapt when the game goes south. His one and only solution is to shorten the bench and put more "jam" on the ice. It's almost as if he's using the gritty players to replicate his frustration and he's trying to "anger" the puck into the goal.

I hope he can figure things out, and I appreciate his "no ********" attitude, but he took a seriously talented team to the cup, and this team is a long way away from being that team.

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10-12-2011, 10:14 AM
  #133
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Steve has said it though, if you're looking at "conventional models" of good hockey teams we are missing a 50 point defenseman. I could list em off on previous cup winning teams but I think we're all aware. Our D unit is one of the worst at producing offense in the entire league, not just amongst prospective playoff teams.

That is a lot to leave on Del Zotto.

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Old
10-12-2011, 10:21 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
What Roster? Bylsma won the Adams because of the people missing from the roster.
Wow lol, major brain fart, I have no idea why I thought Alain Vigneault won it...... I guess that's what I get for having a conversation over a cell phone at work.

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Old
10-12-2011, 10:36 AM
  #135
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Whether or not he's a good coach is irrelevant at this point - he's here for the long haul.

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Old
10-12-2011, 10:38 AM
  #136
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Tortorella seems weak tactically. He is great with his vision and the type of players he selects...
I like him, and he seems like he has a good impact on the team, and their fitness. However, he may want to reconsider his assistants. Maybe on the offensive coach/ PP coach needs to be canned.

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Old
10-12-2011, 10:44 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
My biggest concern about Tortorella, and I made this point when he was brought in as well, is that he has shown little capacity to adapt when the game goes south. His one and only solution is to shorten the bench and put more "jam" on the ice. It's almost as if he's using the gritty players to replicate his frustration and he's trying to "anger" the puck into the goal.

I hope he can figure things out, and I appreciate his "no ********" attitude, but he took a seriously talented team to the cup, and this team is a long way away from being that team.
Not only that but he shortens the bench for long stretches, plays guys like MZA in roles that don't suit them, and then throws them out there after not playing for a period and expects them to produce.

If MZA has any business on this team he needs to be in a role that allows him to be creative and play with guys with talent. What reason is there for Fedotenko to get top six minutes?

Torts' mentality is not the problem, it's everything else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
Steve has said it though, if you're looking at "conventional models" of good hockey teams we are missing a 50 point defenseman. I could list em off on previous cup winning teams but I think we're all aware. Our D unit is one of the worst at producing offense in the entire league, not just amongst prospective playoff teams.

That is a lot to leave on Del Zotto.
Part of that is a result from our terrible power play. That's where the majority of points from defensemen come from. If you've got a terrible PP, or in our current state elect to use 5 forwards on your top unit, you're not going to produce a lot of points from the back end.

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10-12-2011, 10:48 AM
  #138
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Whether or not he's a good coach is irrelevant at this point - he's here for the long haul.
Yea...right....cause Sather has shown that hes not willing to throw a coach under the bus to mask the shortcomings of his roster.

What an inaccurate thing to say. If he misses the playoffs this year, with an actual #1C, he's toast.

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10-12-2011, 10:51 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Not only that but he shortens the bench for long stretches, plays guys like MZA in roles that don't suit them, and then throws them out there after not playing for a period and expects them to produce.

If MZA has any business on this team he needs to be in a role that allows him to be creative and play with guys with talent.
He should try putting MZA with Stepan and Wolski


...




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10-12-2011, 10:53 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post

Part of that is a result from our terrible power play. That's where the majority of points from defensemen come from. If you've got a terrible PP, or in our current state elect to use 5 forwards on your top unit, you're not going to produce a lot of points from the back end.
Well, you're right, but that says to me that much of our PP's deficiency is as a result of having no good offensive defensemen, not the other way around.

I suppose its a chicken-egg argument but I think the fact we've had to run five forwards at times says our Dmen are garbage on the man-up.

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10-12-2011, 11:07 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
He should try putting MZA with Stepan and Wolski


...



I just don't understand the purpose of MZA being here if he's not going to play with some guys that have skill. I'm not saying that MZA will produce if given that chance consistently, hell I don't know what will happen. I just don't think it makes any sense not to try it if he's going to be here.

And someone like Wolski...There's no reason for him to be on this team either if he's not in the top 6. There is no role for bottom six guys who only have talent and nothing else, and contribute nothing if they're not producing offense. Kinda like Christensen being on the fourth line when he plays. It's just stupid.


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Originally Posted by SLU Hockey View Post
Well, you're right, but that says to me that much of our PP's deficiency is as a result of having no good offensive defensemen, not the other way around.

I suppose its a chicken-egg argument but I think the fact we've had to run five forwards at times says our Dmen are garbage on the man-up.
It's definitely a chicken and egg argument but at the same time how often over Torts' tenure have we seen a power play that actually looks like a threat?

It's not like we've seen guys who are moving the puck, skating, creating chances, and we just don't seem to have the talent on the back end to generate things.

Now I'm not a fan of most of our defensemen's point shots. Girardi has a decent one, I'm still waiting for Staal to evolve, and DZ is more of a playmaker and guy who finds open areas IMO.

But at the same time we really don't know how they would produce because since Torts has been here we've had a power play that always has a horrible time gaining entry to the zone, and then when we do, there's never any player movement or quick passing. If we don't turn the puck over first we always seem to get restless because no one is doing anything and someone takes a weak shot.

At this point I tend to lean more towards the power play being a complete mess than anything else. With Richards and Gabby out there there's no reason we should have a poor power play again. Time will tell.

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10-12-2011, 11:08 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yea...right....cause Sather has shown that hes not willing to throw a coach under the bus to mask the shortcomings of his roster.

What an inaccurate thing to say. If he misses the playoffs this year, with an actual #1C, he's toast.
That ain't happening. Torts is to Sather what Sather is to Dolan. Clear as day.

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10-12-2011, 11:11 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Yea...right....cause Sather has shown that hes not willing to throw a coach under the bus to mask the shortcomings of his roster.

What an inaccurate thing to say. If he misses the playoffs this year, with an actual #1C, he's toast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
Whether or not he's a good coach is irrelevant at this point - he's here for the long haul.

I kind of agree with both of these, even though they're completely opposite.

I think Torts has more leeway here than a lot of the other guys that have come before. I don't think that the Rangers organization is naive to the fact that the fan base has responded so positively to bringing in the home grown kids and developing our team that way. And while Torts isn't exactly the one who should be lauded for that, he has been extremely outspoken about it.

At the same time there are too many variables to be able to say black or white what would happen with an unsuccessful season. People are expecting this team to be a Top 4 team in the East. If we finish 4th and lose in the first round, then what?

What if we finish 6th and lose?

7th and win a round?

There's too many things that can happen.

One thing I do hope is that this roster stays healthy for the most part. I want to see what he gets out of them and don't want to hear the excuses like last year from people who always tried to use them, even though we played more than fine when Cally and Dubi were out.

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10-12-2011, 11:20 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I hope he can figure things out, and I appreciate his "no ********" attitude, but he took a seriously talented team to the cup, and this team is a long way away from being that team.
I don't disagree, but at the same time how many teams win the Stanley Cup that aren't seriously talented? In recent years, Anaheim was stacked, Detroit was stacked, Chicago was stacked and Pitt was stacked with top heavy talent.

If we're hoping to win a cup with only X's and O's as people will claim Torts is weak on, or with only guts as people will claim Torts is strong on, we're most likely going to fail. Sooner or later, it comes down to the horses. Either you have them or you don't. And if you do, you got to win with them...and Torts has.

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10-12-2011, 11:23 AM
  #145
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I'm not going to wait until the end of the season, I'm going to start booing on opening night. I thought if we got BR we would win the Cup? What happened?

This is not acceptable.

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10-12-2011, 11:39 AM
  #146
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i expect br19 and gaborik to log tons of ice time. they will be burnt by january.

torts loves to overplay his horses and if we struggle to score goals again this season- nd we certainly will if we dont have a top 10 powerplay- hes gonna demand that his top 6 roll every other shift. if he doesnt find a solid 3rd and 4th line, expect a steady dose of line 1 and 2 over and over, including special teams.

guys like w2, mza, boyle, prust, and rupper all can play but they really arent top 6 guys on a serious contender.

this season will be

line 1 with whomever on the other side of gaby
cally, arty, dubi and some stepan.

those guys are all gonna be exhausted both physically and mentally playing in all those nail biter 2-1 games.

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10-12-2011, 11:43 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I don't disagree, but at the same time how many teams win the Stanley Cup that aren't seriously talented? In recent years, Anaheim was stacked, Detroit was stacked, Chicago was stacked and Pitt was stacked with top heavy talent.

If we're hoping to win a cup with only X's and O's as people will claim Torts is weak on, or with only guts as people will claim Torts is strong on, we're most likely going to fail. Sooner or later, it comes down to the horses. Either you have them or you don't. And if you do, you got to win with them...and Torts has.
Yes, cup teams are talented almost by default, but at the same time, those coaches of the teams you listed know how to maximize what they have. They're dialed in to their players to an extent that Tortorella doesn't seem to grasp.

Point being, the best coaches have an innate ability to blend their personal strategies with the composition of their roster. Tortorella has yet to show that, IMO. He builds the team to fit how he thinks he should win, he doesn't maximize the potential of what he has at his disposal.

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10-12-2011, 12:00 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
What part of the whole this has nothing to do with two games thing didn't you get? Torts hasn't just been the coach for two games, you know that right? This is his 4th season now.

He hasn't been able to succeed because of the bad contracts? Didn't his predecessor go farther than he did with all of those bad contracts on the team?

Who was his predecessor's number on center again?

There were no young players on our team before he got here? Weird, I didn't know Cally, and Dubi, and Staal got here when he did.

And again, I don't think any of us criticizing the guy are talking about two games. But since you want to make excuses for their play over there, maybe you could explain why they didn't even show up two consecutive days?

Talk about outrageous.
This thread was started after the two losses. I would think this thread would not have been made and this discussion amongst everyone in this thread would not be happening had we won our first two games after adding Brad Richards.

I'll ignore your condescending tone because I'm well aware what season he is in.

You dont read very well. You mentioned the word "adapt." I never said Renney didnt have bad contracts nor did I say Renney didnt have young players. I said we've been weeding out the bad contracts during Torts tenure thus far; meaning we've been turning over the roster a lot more. We've been adding more youth than Renney had to deal with.

And dont act like Renney did so much more during his time here. He got one round further. Torts has helped a guy like Boyle get his career going. Prust was good in CGY but he's been even better here. And guys like Callahan and Dubinsky their games fit right into Torts style of play. But I'm not going to analyze every single player. Theres no reason to. Everyone is simply nitpicking.

I understand Renney didnt have a number one center either but he did have Jagr and Shanny. He did have Gomez who did put up points even if they werent what we hoped they would be. He did have Drury before his body fell apart where he was putting up 45-55 points. He certainly had more veterans than Torts has.

I'm not making excuses for their play in the first 2 games because I dont think theres any to make. I thought they played solid games for a team without Staal, against arguably the two best Western Conference teams.

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10-12-2011, 01:26 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
This thread was started after the two losses. I would think this thread would not have been made and this discussion amongst everyone in this thread would not be happening had we won our first two games after adding Brad Richards.

I'll ignore your condescending tone because I'm well aware what season he is in.

You dont read very well. You mentioned the word "adapt." I never said Renney didnt have bad contracts nor did I say Renney didnt have young players. I said we've been weeding out the bad contracts during Torts tenure thus far; meaning we've been turning over the roster a lot more. We've been adding more youth than Renney had to deal with.

And dont act like Renney did so much more during his time here. He got one round further. Torts has helped a guy like Boyle get his career going. Prust was good in CGY but he's been even better here. And guys like Callahan and Dubinsky their games fit right into Torts style of play. But I'm not going to analyze every single player. Theres no reason to. Everyone is simply nitpicking.

I understand Renney didnt have a number one center either but he did have Jagr and Shanny. He did have Gomez who did put up points even if they werent what we hoped they would be. He did have Drury before his body fell apart where he was putting up 45-55 points. He certainly had more veterans than Torts has.

I'm not making excuses for their play in the first 2 games because I dont think theres any to make. I thought they played solid games for a team without Staal, against arguably the two best Western Conference teams.
I understand when the thread was started but by the time you posted the majority of the discussion that involved criticism was in regards to everything since he's been here.

The turning over the roster and adding 'more' youth are what the coach is choosing to do. It's what he wants. He's been pretty clear about that. We can't act like he gets some sort of pass for it when it's the path he's chosen.

Renney got one round further, yes, that's a fact. He did it twice. He also didn't get suspended from a playoff game that could've clinched a series from being a complete joke and hypocrite after benching a player for the same reasons. I also don't remember Renney blowing a 3 goal third period lead in a game that could've dramatically changed a series. In fact, I don't ever really remember Renney ever being completely out coached in any of his playoff series.

So Torts gets credit for a guy like Boyle, but we could never assume that Dubinsky and Callahan would've grown the way they have under Renney? You're saying that Renney doesn't deserve as much credit because he had Jagr and Shanny, but we can't consider that a coach gets the most out of his players in some instances? We've seen Jagr unhappy places and what happens. He thrived under Renney.

I'm not sure how anyone who watched that game on Saturday could say that we played a solid game. That game was a disaster.

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10-12-2011, 02:11 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
This thread was started after the two losses. I would think this thread would not have been made and this discussion amongst everyone in this thread would not be happening had we won our first two games after adding Brad Richards.

I'll ignore your condescending tone because I'm well aware what season he is in.

You dont read very well. You mentioned the word "adapt." I never said Renney didnt have bad contracts nor did I say Renney didnt have young players. I said we've been weeding out the bad contracts during Torts tenure thus far; meaning we've been turning over the roster a lot more. We've been adding more youth than Renney had to deal with.

And dont act like Renney did so much more during his time here. He got one round further. Torts has helped a guy like Boyle get his career going. Prust was good in CGY but he's been even better here. And guys like Callahan and Dubinsky their games fit right into Torts style of play. But I'm not going to analyze every single player. Theres no reason to. Everyone is simply nitpicking.

I understand Renney didnt have a number one center either but he did have Jagr and Shanny. He did have Gomez who did put up points even if they werent what we hoped they would be. He did have Drury before his body fell apart where he was putting up 45-55 points. He certainly had more veterans than Torts has.

I'm not making excuses for their play in the first 2 games because I dont think theres any to make. I thought they played solid games for a team without Staal, against arguably the two best Western Conference teams.

"Outside maybe Richy and Gaby and Arty (Anisimov), skill-wise, we're not gonna make those pretty plays," Dubinsky said Monday. "We're going to grind it out and get our scoring chances that way."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ho...#ixzz1aaxBKLVV

If this is what they tell each other when they get up in the morning, it doesn't look like too much entertainment in the horizon. I'm guessing this is a reflection of Torts opinion. Two matches or not, as a fresh Rangers fan, mostly due to Zucca admitedly, if this is where this team is aiming this season I predict it will long and boring. And then comes play off, no time for pretty plays then, for sure.

I think the team has more than average skills, Dubinsky included, but if you tell yourself (and everybody else) you're a grinder, than that's what you will become.

After all, this is the entertainment industry.

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