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What do we need more?

View Poll Results: Power or Real Skill?
Power Forward 44 77.19%
Real Skill Forward 13 22.81%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-08-2011, 08:19 PM
  #1
John Swartzwelder
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What do we need more?

Our top forwards need more top end ability, not just a bunch of 3rd liners. Sturm, Raymond, Samuelsson, Hodgson, Higgins, etc will not get it done in the playoffs; they are good depth players, but relying on those players in the playoffs gives you bad results. We need either extra naturally skilled or a power forward type player. Realistically we could only acquire one.

So, if we could only have one of the following types of players, which would you choose?

1 - Power forward, gritty type (Doan, Morrow, Malone etc)
2 - Really skilled forward (Parise, Hemsky, Semin etc)

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Old
10-08-2011, 08:21 PM
  #2
Chairman Maouth
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Kesler with the 2009/2010 versions of Raymond and Sammy would be fine for the second line. If they can get back to that level. If they can we are in great shape.

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10-08-2011, 08:27 PM
  #3
biturbo19
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Originally Posted by Chairman Maouth View Post
Kesler with the 2009/2010 versions of Raymond and Sammy would be fine for the second line. If they can get back to that level. If they can we are in great shape.
I agree. At the time, when they were all clicking...that was regarded as one of the better 2nd lines in the league.

Unfortunately, Samuelsson seems to be on the decline, Kesler has turned into a very different player (for the better, but that chemistry he had with Raymond is completely gone) and who knows what sort of Raymond we might get back.

If we could somehow get that 30g Samuelsson, a Raymond who looked like a candidate to nudge 30g, and a 40g Kesler all on one line...could you really ask for more?

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Old
10-08-2011, 08:36 PM
  #4
John Swartzwelder
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The thing is with raymond - at his peak he only scored 4 points in the 2010 playoffs. not good enough. and who knows if he will ever recover to his 09/10 form off his back injury.

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Old
10-08-2011, 11:52 PM
  #5
Catamarca Livin
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To be honest i would take two more higgins or hansens. They fit in the salary cap and they are warriors. Of course if salary is no object give me a hansen who can score in other words doan.

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10-09-2011, 12:37 AM
  #6
Nuckles
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Cowbell. Always need more cowbell.
Or a skilled power forward.

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Old
10-09-2011, 01:07 AM
  #7
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Ideal guy for me is Clowe.. not sure if there is anyway we could get him - but he's the ideal guy for us (great contract/playoff warrior/hits/sets up goals). He could also fit great with the sedins if Burrows was hurt- giving us versatility.

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Old
10-09-2011, 01:20 AM
  #8
Reverend Mayhem
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Originally Posted by JonnyCash View Post
Ideal guy for me is Clowe.. not sure if there is anyway we could get him - but he's the ideal guy for us (great contract/playoff warrior/hits/sets up goals). He could also fit great with the sedins if Burrows was hurt- giving us versatility.
Clowe would be great for this team. Not only as a player but as a teammate. Whenever I see him he's always standing up for his teammates. We need more of that.

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Old
10-09-2011, 02:04 AM
  #9
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A combination, that 2nd line was invisible last game.

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Old
10-09-2011, 03:18 AM
  #10
Bleach Clean
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I'd lean towards skilled forward. However, getting a really skilled forward is near impossible to attain and maintain (salary).


I think the team is missing an "offense only" forward (or two). A player that may have issues in the D zone, but one that is talented in the O zone. And really, the lines beyond the twins are so focused on two-way play that you cannot rely on them for secondary scoring. Most of that secondary push comes from the D anyhow.


AV generally does not allow for players that are predominately good in the O zone, but lack D zone awareness. He wants that D zone presence. But these are the players that can sometimes get others going. And they are somewhat undervalued, just like solid two-way players with mediocre offensive numbers are undervalued. The latter gets you more than his points would suggest, and the former takes a hit on the paycheck because they don't give you much of anything beyond the points.


To illustrate this, the weakest D zone forwards on the team are the Sedins and Samuelsson. They are passable on defense, but not two-way focused players. Yet, they comprise a big portion of the skill in the top 6. We rely on them to be the offensive engine of the team. On the flipside, Burrows, Kesler, Raymond, and Higgins compliment them by bringing a strong defensive aspect to the lines. Which is great, but I think the team needs to have one more forward that is like the Sedins/Samuelsson to facilitate the offense further, beyond the 1st line. Examples that come to mind are Hudler in Detroit, Whitney in Phoenix, Huselius in Columbus etc... These players aren't known for their two-way play, but are crafty in the offensive zone. They have built careers on moving the offense forward, despite weaker D zone play.


An offense only player won't be as expensive as an elite skilled player due to their limitations. People will constantly wonder why said players aren't complete performers, but it's these players that teams need to round out the offense. And that's what this team needs. They got the twins+Sammy and a bunch of two-way players - they need to even out the skill and get more skill only players into the mix.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 10-09-2011 at 03:26 AM.
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Old
10-09-2011, 12:02 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I'd lean towards skilled forward. However, getting a really skilled forward is near impossible to attain and maintain (salary).


I think the team is missing an "offense only" forward (or two). A player that may have issues in the D zone, but one that is talented in the O zone. And really, the lines beyond the twins are so focused on two-way play that you cannot rely on them for secondary scoring. Most of that secondary push comes from the D anyhow.


AV generally does not allow for players that are predominately good in the O zone, but lack D zone awareness. He wants that D zone presence. But these are the players that can sometimes get others going. And they are somewhat undervalued, just like solid two-way players with mediocre offensive numbers are undervalued. The latter gets you more than his points would suggest, and the former takes a hit on the paycheck because they don't give you much of anything beyond the points.


To illustrate this, the weakest D zone forwards on the team are the Sedins and Samuelsson. They are passable on defense, but not two-way focused players. Yet, they comprise a big portion of the skill in the top 6. We rely on them to be the offensive engine of the team. On the flipside, Burrows, Kesler, Raymond, and Higgins compliment them by bringing a strong defensive aspect to the lines. Which is great, but I think the team needs to have one more forward that is like the Sedins/Samuelsson to facilitate the offense further, beyond the 1st line. Examples that come to mind are Hudler in Detroit, Whitney in Phoenix, Huselius in Columbus etc... These players aren't known for their two-way play, but are crafty in the offensive zone. They have built careers on moving the offense forward, despite weaker D zone play.


An offense only player won't be as expensive as an elite skilled player due to their limitations. People will constantly wonder why said players aren't complete performers, but it's these players that teams need to round out the offense. And that's what this team needs. They got the twins+Sammy and a bunch of two-way players - they need to even out the skill and get more skill only players into the mix.
With Hodgson making the team and Sturm added to the lineup, I think we have WAAYY too many of these types of guys as is, unless we're talking about Elite level talent. Two-way guys seem to have a better time in the playoffs too.

I think we need someone like Doan in the top six.


Last edited by Shareefruck: 10-09-2011 at 12:16 PM.
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Old
10-09-2011, 12:53 PM
  #12
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Yup, just go out and get Doan or Clowe and life will be fine. It's just that easy, LOL...

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Old
10-09-2011, 01:08 PM
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Yup, just go out and get Doan or Clowe and life will be fine. It's just that easy, LOL...
No chance of Clowe, but wonder if it's possible we could do a deadline deal for Doan as a rental. He'll resign with Phoenix, but he may want to have 1 shot at a cup, and perhaps Phoenix and Vancouver could accommodate this.

As of now, I think we have enough cap space for this, no?

Doan would be perfect.

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10-09-2011, 01:22 PM
  #14
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Power forward, although if a guy like Zach Parise became available you don't just say no.

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10-09-2011, 01:52 PM
  #15
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powerforward.

One of the criticisms against the Canucks is that they play to cute sometimes. They need that North/South player with hands that will drive to the net.

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10-10-2011, 05:10 AM
  #16
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
With Hodgson making the team and Sturm added to the lineup, I think we have WAAYY too many of these types of guys as is, unless we're talking about Elite level talent. Two-way guys seem to have a better time in the playoffs too.

I think we need someone like Doan in the top six.

Sturm and Hodgson both play two-way games. They aren't purely offensive players. These players don't play a similar game to a Huselius, Hudler or Whitney at all. You can tell these players know what to do in the dzone more often than not. The others? Not so much (Whitney is ok at it).


Sure we could use someone like Doan,... every team could. He's a very good player. My point was more about finding value with players that have shaky d zone play, but have good o zone play. It's these players that can help facilitate an offense throughout the line-up. Right now, we have the Sedins and Samuelsson as more offensive players with mediocre d zone ability, that's it. The rest are good two-way players. We're overstocked with two-way guys. We need more offense only players to balance it out.

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10-10-2011, 01:02 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Sturm and Hodgson both play two-way games. They aren't purely offensive players. These players don't play a similar game to a Huselius, Hudler or Whitney at all. You can tell these players know what to do in the dzone more often than not. The others? Not so much (Whitney is ok at it).


Sure we could use someone like Doan,... every team could. He's a very good player. My point was more about finding value with players that have shaky d zone play, but have good o zone play. It's these players that can help facilitate an offense throughout the line-up. Right now, we have the Sedins and Samuelsson as more offensive players with mediocre d zone ability, that's it. The rest are good two-way players. We're overstocked with two-way guys. We need more offense only players to balance it out.
I don't agree-- and if you consider Sturm and Hodgson (just because of the inexperience and lack of strength and footspeed) solid defensive players, then you could probably argue that the Sedins/Samuelsson are alright in that respect too (Sedins used to be great in their own end, and were among our top penalty killers).

My problem with the suggestion is that even though Sturm and Hodgson aren't going to be as awful in their own end as the guys you're suggesting, I think even their lack of defensive skill is going to hurt this team a bit this upcoming season. This team was so great last year because the entire group functioned almost machine-like defensively on top of having great offensive weapons-- I would argue that adding an offense-only player would hurt us more than help us.

Maybe I'm generalizing, but those types of players also tend to lack the intensity and drive that we're sorely missing in the playoffs. We're missing a power-guy who drives through people, not a dipsy doodle powerplay specialist. If that's a proposed solution, I would probably prefer to take my chances with guys like Raymond and Hodgson.

Then again, playing with Kesler and forcing him to take on all of the responsibility, it might work. But I don't love it. He would have to be a REALLY top-caliber offensive guy and not a 50 point guy like Samuelsson, IMO.

I would definitely much rather replace a guy like Sturm, who isn't doing anything, with a Hansen than a guy like Samuelsson.

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Old
10-10-2011, 01:17 PM
  #18
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I'd take a Clowe, Lucic, Malone type for the Canucks at this point over a smaller skill guy.

Now...actually acquiring one is a whole other story.

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10-10-2011, 04:23 PM
  #19
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I'm wondering where the perception that we need a power forward is from. It seems to me that we need some actual skill in this lineup, someone who has the hands to dangle and actual creativity in the attacking zone. A guy who can make plays east-west and not just north-south when coming over the blue line.

Someone mentioned before that this team is being taken over by grinders, and while I don't know if it's that extreme, there's got to a better way than just utilizing the chip-and-chase on every line except for the Sedins'.

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Old
10-10-2011, 04:31 PM
  #20
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It's really impossible to say because players are rarely 1-dimensional. For example, Parise is clearly the best of all the players you listed. He's a 40g+, 40a+ player with an amazing defensive game and a Hansen-like work ethic. He's just all around awesome.

Similarily, Semin is clearly the second best player there. He's another 40g+, 40a+ forward who has absolutely game breaking skill. He's also not nearly as bad defensively as the media makes it seem and is actually used on the PK.

But a guy like Hemsky has too many injury problems attached to him and I would take Doan or Morrow over him without thinking twice.

Usually skill is the hardest thing to inject into your lineup and I would almost always lean towards adding more skill to the lineup over almost anything else. Of course, there are limitations to this. I'd take a physical 60p forward who plays solid defense over a butter soft 70p forward who doesn't know what his own side of the rink looks like. But what if that butter soft forward is a 80p player? It gets tougher. 90p? Probably going to take that player despite his short comings. 100p? Almost certainly more valuable than the 60p power forward.

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Old
10-10-2011, 04:41 PM
  #21
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Rick Nash!

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Old
10-10-2011, 04:44 PM
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All the things!

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