Madson and Papelbon are pretty much even for me although I like Madson a little better. I just don't like that the deal is even larger than the one rumored to Madson. He's a good pitcher though, and he essentially just replaces Lidge's money.
I understand what you are saying here. But you ask any expert in baseball and the majority will take Papelbon at 50 million for four years over Madson at 44 million for four years.
I understand what you are saying here. But you ask any expert in baseball and the majority will take Papelbon at 50 million for four years over Madson at 44 million for four years.
Papelbon clearly has better numbers when he's on, but his also more "normal" for a reliever. Madson may not have the dominating numbers, but he is one of the unusual cases where a reliever is consistent from year to year. He's also progressively gotten better the past couple years. Like I said though I'd take either one. I was just hoping to get the best deal for our closer. I don't know if we got that, we'll have to wait and see.
Hey guys, congrats on getting Pap. The guy certainly wore out his welcome in Boston. He was loved and then his schtick wore VERY thin at the end. He's a good player, but I can't say anyone in Boston is sad to see him go.
I understand what you are saying here. But you ask any expert in baseball and the majority will take Papelbon at 50 million for four years over Madson at 44 million for four years.
False. Keith Law, for example, is panning the decision. Partially cuz he doesn't like the money for a closer, but also because Madson is a bit better looking at the last couple years.
Papelbon clearly has better numbers when he's on, but his also more "normal" for a reliever. Madson may not have the dominating numbers, but he is one of the unusual cases where a reliever is consistent from year to year. He's also progressively gotten better the past couple years. Like I said though I'd take either one. I was just hoping to get the best deal for our closer. I don't know if we got that, we'll have to wait and see.
Here's the problem with Papelbon: he's a one-trick pony. He throws hard, that's all he does. Any sort of arm problem and he's going to pretty much immediately cease to be effective.
Madson has the change, which is an excellent pitch against the rest of baseball, and the cutter. He also induces more ground balls.
The primary thing pitchers tend to lose as they get into their thirties is velocity... Especially high velocity pitchers, who tend to burn their arms out due to the force they put into their elbow.
Hey guys, congrats on getting Pap. The guy certainly wore out his welcome in Boston. He was loved and then his schtick wore VERY thin at the end. He's a good player, but I can't say anyone in Boston is sad to see him go.
Yep, this is the other mark against Papelbon. His departure from Boston has been expected for two years now.
Jester, weren't you one of the huge detractors of Madson before the season started? If not, nevermind, but I remember arguing with multiple people (and you and I usually argue about everything so I am just assuming you were involved) who were dooming the Phillies for making Madson the closer. Paplebon is a good closer. Probably paid a little too much, but Madson and Pap have similar numbers. I'd prefer Madson too, but it's not like the Phillies bullpen is in ruin now because they have Paplebon instead of Madson.
Jester, weren't you one of the huge detractors of Madson before the season started? If not, nevermind, but I remember arguing with multiple people (and you and I usually argue about everything so I am just assuming you were involved) who were dooming the Phillies for making Madson the closer. Paplebon is a good closer. Probably paid a little too much, but Madson and Pap have similar numbers. I'd prefer Madson too, but it's not like the Phillies bullpen is in ruin now because they have Paplebon instead of Madson.
No, I was not one of his detractors. Concerns about his mental fortitude as a closer, but not his stuff.
And who is saying the Phils BP is in ruins? Your arguments would be less trite if they weren't entirely built upon extremist statements that do not in any way conform to reality.
The actual reality is that both the deal discussed for Madson and the one they just gave to Papelbon have alarm bells all over them if you want to really get into it. Just like the atrocious contract they gave to Howard.
No, I was not one of his detractors. Concerns about his mental fortitude as a closer, but not his stuff.
And who is saying the Phils BP is in ruins? Your arguments would be less trite if they weren't entirely built upon extremist statements that do not in any way conform to reality.
The actual reality is that both the deal discussed for Madson and the one they just gave to Papelbon have alarm bells all over them if you want to really get into it. Just like the atrocious contract they gave to Howard.
See I agree with this. People fail to compare the two deals if they were signed. Paps got 50, but if they signed Madson to the other deal he would've been getting 44! In the grand scheme both are way too much to pay a closer who could falter as Brad Lidge did after his perfect season.
In addition I think this is pretty telling about what Jimmy is going to want to be paid. For as thin as the closer market is this offseason, the SS market seems to be extremely thinner. A guy with Jimmy's track record could probably convince a few teams to throw ridiculous money at him like the Phils did to Papelbon.
You would have thought that after seeing the value they got on young guys on entry level deals in the bullpen (Stutes, Bastardo, and good signs from Schwimer and DeFratus), and seeing what happened to Brad Lidge after signing a similar deal, the Phils would have learned their lesson.
They would have been better served to wait out the market IMO. At least one good closer is probably going to end up one a bargain deal
See I agree with this. People fail to compare the two deals if they were signed. Paps got 50, but if they signed Madson to the other deal he would've been getting 44! In the grand scheme both are way too much to pay a closer who could falter as Brad Lidge did after his perfect season.
And this is why I prefer Madson a lot at this point. He's a better "pitcher" as opposed to " thrower" (which is what Papelbon is ). There are no safe deals for 30 y/o pitchers with a lot of miles on their arms, but a word class change-up has much longer viability than throwing 95 mph fastballs.
You would have thought that after seeing the value they got on young guys on entry level deals in the bullpen (Stutes, Bastardo, and good signs from Schwimer and DeFratus), and seeing what happened to Brad Lidge after signing a similar deal, the Phils would have learned their lesson.
They would have been better served to wait out the market IMO. At least one good closer is probably going to end up one a bargain deal
An effective closer is more important than the stat junkies make out simply because it puts the rest of your pen into a set order. The national pundits critiquing this deal and talking about Bastardo aren't paying enough attention to the fact that he was very lucky last year, and he also hit the wall, which probably nixed him for any chance at the role during the offseason.
An effective closer is more important than the stat junkies make out simply because it puts the rest of your pen into a set order. The national pundits critiquing this deal and talking about Bastardo aren't paying enough attention to the fact that he was very lucky last year, and he also hit the wall, which probably nixed him for any chance at the role during the offseason.
I agree that it is important to a degree, however I don't think its wise at all to spend 12 mil a year on the guy thats throwing 60 innings a year. I as well wouldnt want to trust Bastardo with the job, but would it have been so bad to get a guy like Bell or Nathan on a cheaper and shorter deal (granted the market plays out that way)?
The other thing that irks me about closers is that they are used in save situations exlusively simply because of the stat, where there are higher leverage situations in games that you are throwing out to your lesser BP guys. I think its important to have a big gun in the pen but would rather see that player used more situationally
No, I was not one of his detractors. Concerns about his mental fortitude as a closer, but not his stuff.
And who is saying the Phils BP is in ruins? Your arguments would be less trite if they weren't entirely built upon extremist statements that do not in any way conform to reality.
The actual reality is that both the deal discussed for Madson and the one they just gave to Papelbon have alarm bells all over them if you want to really get into it. Just like the atrocious contract they gave to Howard.
I'm not really psyched on the contract either, but Paplebon isn't going to be an issue on the field. No one is saying the BP is ruins and I didn't say that anyone was. I was simply illustrating that we have a good closer, regardless of who we could have had or how much we are paying him.
Wow do we disagree about him not being a big time closer. You are correct about one thing. He is our closer. The guy can pitch under pressure. And I hate to tell everyone. Pitching in Boston is just as hard if not harder,then pitching here in Philly. His record the last 5-6 years speaks for itself. Now with our closer set we can look at other areas to work on. Well done R.A.
Yeah, but my point is that with the season on the line 2 of the last 3 years, Papelbon blew it. He can have another all-sear season, but if does that again with the Phillies, he's going to get absolutely ROASTED. Not that he'll care that much, he'll count his pennies, his personality might be just this side of Billy Wagner. I think we saw his peak, but I guess I'm glad he signed with the Phillies as opposed to other possible suitors.
Yeah, but my point is that with the season on the line 2 of the last 3 years, Papelbon blew it. He can have another all-sear season, but if does that again with the Phillies, he's going to get absolutely ROASTED. Not that he'll care that much, he'll count his pennies, his personality might be just this side of Billy Wagner. I think we saw his peak, but I guess I'm glad he signed with the Phillies as opposed to other possible suitors.
Carl Crawford and the complete lack of starting pitching? You win as a team and lose as a team. Papelbon was the least of their problems.
I still wish we would have brought Madson back. But there is no denying that Papelbon is legit. And I'll be glad to jump on his bandwagon if he can dominate for us.
Help the Phillies get another WS, and I'll love him forever.
Carl Crawford and the complete lack of starting pitching? You win as a team and lose as a team. Papelbon was the least of their problems.
I'm plainly aware, and I hate John Lackey because I think he's just a complete d-bag who legitimately is a team cancer, but those big spots define closers. Trevor Hoffman had a great career as a closer, but his career will be defined because of his constant choking in the playoffs. Joe Nathan falls in there. There's playing in a pressure cooker town, and then there's a whole other level in the playoffs. Granted, unlike those guys, Papelbon was also a big part of a World Series champ. I just don't think his shelf life will be that long because he only has one pitch as a fly ball pitcher in home run ball park.
I'm plainly aware, and I hate John Lackey because I think he's just a complete d-bag who legitimately is a team cancer, but those big spots define closers. Trevor Hoffman had a great career as a closer, but his career will be defined because of his constant choking in the playoffs. Joe Nathan falls in there. There's playing in a pressure cooker town, and then there's a whole other level in the playoffs. Granted, unlike those guys, Papelbon was also a big part of a World Series champ. I just don't think his shelf life will be that long because he only has one pitch as a fly ball pitcher in home run ball park.
In 12 postseason appearances, Hoffman pitched scoreless in 8 of em.
Anyone that defines his career as a payoff choke artist is an idiot.
In 12 postseason appearances, Hoffman pitched scoreless in 8 of em.
Anyone that defines his career as a payoff choke artist is an idiot.
In the '95 NLCS, he gave up a winning run credited to another pitcher but he still gave it up, and gave up a home run the next game where the season ended.
In the '98 NLCS he blew a save against the Braves, but the Padres still won the game and the series. He converted in another game, but Game 6 wasn't a save situation.
In the '98 World Series he gave up a 3-run homer to Scott Brosius, the Padres only got one of those runs back and lost. That put the Padres down 3-0 in the series. Season over.
After that, he did have a save in 2006, but in '05 had a scoreless inning while the Padres were down 3 runs.
In 2007, he took the loss in the NL Wild Card Tie-Breaker vs. Colorado, with a 2-run lead in the 13th Inning. Even if Matt Holliday never touched home plate, the sac fly he was called safe on was the only out he recorded.
In 12 post-season appearance he had 8 scoreless innings with 4 blown saves, plus the '07 Wild Card.. One or two may be forgiven like Rivera, but if you're blowing 50% of your save opportunities in the playoffs, maybe it doesn't "define a career" but it's going to be front and center. Three times he blew a save that essentially ended the season. If this isn't the resume of a playoff choker, I'd love to know what exactly the definition of that is.
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