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Avs @ Jackets: Avs win 3-2 in SO

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Old
10-13-2011, 04:28 AM
  #101
Drury_Sakic
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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
No. If the avalanche signed him to an offer sheet the caps could have matched thus keeping him. Sherman said this was the reason he traded what he did for him
Well, yes, they might have matched, but then again they might not have. Avs SHOULD have tried that route, and THEN thrown the overpay via trade. As it stands now, the Caps are actually over the cap as it is with two goalies at 1.5m. (they are getting by with LTIR space)

$3,134,088 per would have put the Avs at giving up just a 2nd...and IMO it would have been worth paying a bit more to Varly to test the Caps resolve. (he got 2.833)

Keeping Varly would have not only forced the Caps to pay big for a guy they clearly were not committed to, but also cost them a real roster player, as they would have had to cut another 1.5-2 million elsewhere. ( after offsetting Vokoun's contract to Varlys) They likely would have had to pass on Joel Ward or perhaps even move Brooks Laich.

And I am not even convinced it would have come to making the offersheet. McPhee maybe did not use the exact words, but in the interviews about the trade, he came off as being shocked that someone offered the package they did. Again, we do not know what exactly happened behind the scenes, but it seems as though the 1st and 2nd was the opening bid from the Avs, not the last move in a chessmatch....and if the cost really was the value of a first, would it not have been a better use of assetts to make it Hishion and the 2nd or even Barrie or Elliott if they did not want a forward? Thus lessening the risk to the Avs if they were to suck and leaving the more valuable asset, arguably, for a later deal.

I am not being critical of the ability of Varly, I liked the move in terms of what the Avs were getting.... but it is yet another trade that this management has made where what they sent out seemed like it was just a bit off based on the value of what they got back.... starting with the Wolski and Foote trades really, the Avs have been panned in almost every deal they have made as giving up more than they get back. O'Bryne, Liles, Anderson, Johnson, Varly, these moves did not bring in bad players, and they all fit a proven need...but they are not exactly getting good deals in the trades.


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10-13-2011, 06:33 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic View Post
Well, yes, they might have matched, but then again they might not have. Avs SHOULD have tried that route, and THEN thrown the overpay via trade. As it stands now, the Caps are actually over the cap as it is with two goalies at 1.5m. (they are getting by with LTIR space)

$3,134,088 per would have put the Avs at giving up just a 2nd...and IMO it would have been worth paying a bit more to Varly to test the Caps resolve. (he got 2.833)

Keeping Varly would have not only forced the Caps to pay big for a guy they clearly were not committed to, but also cost them a real roster player, as they would have had to cut another 1.5-2 million elsewhere. ( after offsetting Vokoun's contract to Varlys) They likely would have had to pass on Joel Ward or perhaps even move Brooks Laich.

And I am not even convinced it would have come to making the offersheet. McPhee maybe did not use the exact words, but in the interviews about the trade, he came off as being shocked that someone offered the package they did. Again, we do not know what exactly happened behind the scenes, but it seems as though the 1st and 2nd was the opening bid from the Avs, not the last move in a chessmatch....and if the cost really was the value of a first, would it not have been a better use of assetts to make it Hishion and the 2nd or even Barrie or Elliott if they did not want a forward? Thus lessening the risk to the Avs if they were to suck and leaving the more valuable asset, arguably, for a later deal.

I am not being critical of the ability of Varly, I liked the move in terms of what the Avs were getting.... but it is yet another trade that this management has made where what they sent out seemed like it was just a bit off based on the value of what they got back.... starting with the Wolski and Foote trades really, the Avs have been panned in almost every deal they have made as giving up more than they get back. O'Bryne, Liles, Anderson, Johnson, Varly, these moves did not bring in bad players, and they all fit a proven need...but they are not exactly getting good deals in the trades.
I dont know why everyone acts like this is a big secret that Sherman didn't know about. Sherman knows how offer sheets work. He also knew that it was not an option for varly.

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10-13-2011, 06:44 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by tucker3434 View Post
I dont know why everyone acts like this is a big secret that Sherman didn't know about. Sherman knows how offer sheets work. He also knew that it was not an option for varly.
And how do we "know" that. Not that I am saying its known that it WOULD have worked anymore than if it would not have, but looking at the logic of it, it MIGHT have...and the overpay after the fact via trade would have still been an option.

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10-13-2011, 07:00 AM
  #104
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Sherman wanted a starting goalie that would be around for a while. He did what he had to do to get one.

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10-13-2011, 07:48 AM
  #105
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And how do we "know" that. Not that I am saying its known that it WOULD have worked anymore than if it would not have, but looking at the logic of it, it MIGHT have...and the overpay after the fact via trade would have still been an option.
The guy is an NHL gm. His job is to acquire assets at the best possible price. Everyone knew varly was an rfa this year. I guarantee you that he explored that option. Regardless of what kin of job you think he's doing, he isn't incompetent.

Edit: how I'm guessing it went down: we floated the idea of an offer sheet by McPhee. He said he'd match any offer sheet so he could get fair value in a trade in the future. Then we "made them an offer they couldnt refuse." as McPhee said, they were offered, in this past off season, what they were hoping to get next year. Whether you agree with the amount we paid is a different story.


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10-13-2011, 07:51 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic View Post
And how do we "know" that. Not that I am saying its known that it WOULD have worked anymore than if it would not have, but looking at the logic of it, it MIGHT have...and the overpay after the fact via trade would have still been an option.
I am pretty sure GM GM wouldn't have liked us offersheeting Varly.

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10-13-2011, 09:19 AM
  #107
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I am pretty sure GM GM wouldn't have liked us offersheeting Varly.
And probably made an offersheet on one of our RFAs next year.

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10-13-2011, 10:06 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic View Post
Well, yes, they might have matched, but then again they might not have. Avs SHOULD have tried that route, and THEN thrown the overpay via trade. As it stands now, the Caps are actually over the cap as it is with two goalies at 1.5m. (they are getting by with LTIR space)

$3,134,088 per would have put the Avs at giving up just a 2nd...and IMO it would have been worth paying a bit more to Varly to test the Caps resolve. (he got 2.833)

Keeping Varly would have not only forced the Caps to pay big for a guy they clearly were not committed to, but also cost them a real roster player, as they would have had to cut another 1.5-2 million elsewhere. ( after offsetting Vokoun's contract to Varlys) They likely would have had to pass on Joel Ward or perhaps even move Brooks Laich.

And I am not even convinced it would have come to making the offersheet. McPhee maybe did not use the exact words, but in the interviews about the trade, he came off as being shocked that someone offered the package they did. Again, we do not know what exactly happened behind the scenes, but it seems as though the 1st and 2nd was the opening bid from the Avs, not the last move in a chessmatch....and if the cost really was the value of a first, would it not have been a better use of assetts to make it Hishion and the 2nd or even Barrie or Elliott if they did not want a forward? Thus lessening the risk to the Avs if they were to suck and leaving the more valuable asset, arguably, for a later deal.

I am not being critical of the ability of Varly, I liked the move in terms of what the Avs were getting.... but it is yet another trade that this management has made where what they sent out seemed like it was just a bit off based on the value of what they got back.... starting with the Wolski and Foote trades really, the Avs have been panned in almost every deal they have made as giving up more than they get back. O'Bryne, Liles, Anderson, Johnson, Varly, these moves did not bring in bad players, and they all fit a proven need...but they are not exactly getting good deals in the trades.
Are you saying we could have got better for Wolski?

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10-13-2011, 10:43 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Kschey View Post
I am pretty sure GM GM wouldn't have liked us offersheeting Varly.
Indeed! We offersheet Varly, they match, we ask if we can trade for him, GM GM says no and runs off giggling like a schoolgirl.

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10-13-2011, 11:15 AM
  #110
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By the way, we need to be a little bit more careful with the boarding/hitting from behind.

All three of Wilson(twice), Quincey, and Galiardi blatantly hit guys from behind into the boards last night. Wilson and Quincey were caught, but TJ got away and Wilson's on Brassard got away as well.

I like the physicality as much as the next guy, but we need to be mindful of these things. With increased visibility on these hits by league offices, we could start facing fines/suspensions soon.

Mind you, it also doesn't help that SOB (fitting initials) cross checks guys mercilessly in front of the net.

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10-13-2011, 11:20 AM
  #111
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By the way, we need to be a little bit more careful with the boarding/hitting from behind.

All three of Wilson(twice), Quincey, and Galiardi blatantly hit guys from behind into the boards last night. Wilson and Quincey were caught, but TJ got away and Wilson's on Brassard got away as well.

I like the physicality as much as the next guy, but we need to be mindful of these things. With increased visibility on these hits by league offices, we could start facing fines/suspensions soon.

Mind you, it also doesn't help that SOB (fitting initials) cross checks guys mercilessly in front of the net.
Wilson sitting out a game or 2 cant be the worse thig can it? Oh wait Hunwick...Yah Wilson needs to be more careful although one of those hits wasnt his fault the guy turned into it.

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10-13-2011, 11:24 AM
  #112
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By the way, we need to be a little bit more careful with the boarding/hitting from behind.

All three of Wilson(twice), Quincey, and Galiardi blatantly hit guys from behind into the boards last night. Wilson and Quincey were caught, but TJ got away and Wilson's on Brassard got away as well.

I like the physicality as much as the next guy, but we need to be mindful of these things. With increased visibility on these hits by league offices, we could start facing fines/suspensions soon.

Mind you, it also doesn't help that SOB (fitting initials) cross checks guys mercilessly in front of the net.
I wasn't a big fan of the call on Quincey, and i'm split on the call on Wilson. RJ sold the **** out of the Wilson call, and I'm not sure how worthy of a penalty it was regardless.

Let's also not forget our king of hitting from behind, Cody McLoed. Once he's coming he's not stopping.

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10-13-2011, 11:26 AM
  #113
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Once he's coming he's not stopping.
Thats what she said.

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10-13-2011, 11:28 AM
  #114
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I wasn't a big fan of the call on Quincey, and i'm split on the call on Wilson. RJ sold the **** out of the Wilson call, and I'm not sure how worthy of a penalty it was regardless.

Let's also not forget our king of hitting from behind, Cody McLoed. Once he's coming he's not stopping.
Wilson left his feet to nail a guy into the glass from behind who was already turned.

Whether RJ embelished or not isn't up for debate(I agree with you that he sold it), but that's a 100% clear penalty.

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10-13-2011, 11:44 AM
  #115
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The guy is an NHL gm. His job is to acquire assets at the best possible price. Everyone knew varly was an rfa this year. I guarantee you that he explored that option. Regardless of what kin of job you think he's doing, he isn't incompetent.

Edit: how I'm guessing it went down: we floated the idea of an offer sheet by McPhee. He said he'd match any offer sheet so he could get fair value in a trade in the future. Then we "made them an offer they couldnt refuse." as McPhee said, they were offered, in this past off season, what they were hoping to get next year. Whether you agree with the amount we paid is a different story.
Sherm the worm always overpays to get what he wants and I believe that he is incompetent. McPhee publicly laughed at what we gave them for a guy that was the odd man out and 1 foot out the door in wash.

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10-13-2011, 12:04 PM
  #116
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Sherm the worm always overpays to get what he wants and I believe that he is incompetent. McPhee publicly laughed at what we gave them for a guy that was the odd man out and 1 foot out the door in wash.
GM GM has also basically said that had he not gotten an offer that was at least close to what we gave up he would've just let Varly go to the KHL and develop for a couple more years getting a lot of PT while he gets to see what he's got in Neuvirth and Holtby with Varly improving in the KHL as an ace up his sleeve.

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10-13-2011, 12:15 PM
  #117
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Sherm the worm always overpays to get what he wants and I believe that he is incompetent. McPhee publicly laughed at what we gave them for a guy that was the odd man out and 1 foot out the door in wash.
Our definitions of incompetent must vary. Sherman didn't just forget that varly was an rfa. Washington was going to match and let varly head to the khl. Did we pay a hight price for varly? Yes. Was it an overpayment? Too early to tell. I can tell you this, without varly we aren't 2-1. If he keeps this play up, well be the easy winners of this trade.

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10-13-2011, 12:19 PM
  #118
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Sherm the worm always overpays to get what he wants and I believe that he is incompetent. McPhee publicly laughed at what we gave them for a guy that was the odd man out and 1 foot out the door in wash.
I'm sorry, but I'm not recalling when GMGM publically laughed at the trade? As I recall, he said that he was surprised he got what he wanted at this time. There was an article stating he was going to be trading him at either this year's trade deadline or next year's trade deadline. The same article stated that GMGM was looking for similar compensation for Varlamov should he have traded him at this year's Trade Deadline or next year's trade deadline.

And let's not forget, that should Varlamov have bolted for the KHL, there was a possibility he could have been on the Lokomotiv plane.

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10-13-2011, 12:29 PM
  #119
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I'm sorry, but I'm not recalling when GMGM publically laughed at the trade? As I recall, he said that he was surprised he got what he wanted at this time. There was an article stating he was going to be trading him at either this year's trade deadline or next year's trade deadline. The same article stated that GMGM was looking for similar compensation for Varlamov should he have traded him at this year's Trade Deadline or next year's trade deadline.

And let's not forget, that should Varlamov have bolted for the KHL, there was a possibility he could have been on the Lokomotiv plane.
So not only did Sherm the worm save Varlamovs career in the NHL he also saved his life. Sherm the Worm now owns Varlamovs soul.

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10-13-2011, 12:37 PM
  #120
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So not only did Sherm the worm save Varlamovs career in the NHL he also saved his life. Sherm the Worm now owns Varlamovs soul.
I wasn't trying to imply that, but I do remember Lokomotiv being one of 2 teams that he would have played for, the other being CSKA Moscow. If I recall correctly, Lokomotiv was saying that they'd still have his KHL rights, and I believe it was looking likely that Lokomotiv was going to win any griveance that would have been filed.

So yeah, I believe that if Varlamov would've went to the KHL, that it was 90% likely that Lokomotiv would've been the team that he played for.

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10-13-2011, 12:40 PM
  #121
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I wasn't trying to imply that, but I do remember Lokomotiv being one of 2 teams that he would have played for, the other being CSKA Moscow. If I recall correctly, Lokomotiv was saying that they'd still have his KHL rights, and I believe it was looking likely that Lokomotiv was going to win any griveance that would have been filed.

So yeah, I believe that if Varlamov would've went to the KHL, that it was 90% likely that Lokomotiv would've been the team that he played for.
I heard the same thing. I wasnt being sarcastic...

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10-13-2011, 12:47 PM
  #122
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I am not being critical of the ability of Varly, I liked the move in terms of what the Avs were getting.... but it is yet another trade that this management has made where what they sent out seemed like it was just a bit off based on the value of what they got back.... starting with the Wolski and Foote trades really, the Avs have been panned in almost every deal they have made as giving up more than they get back. O'Bryne, Liles, Anderson, Johnson, Varly, these moves did not bring in bad players, and they all fit a proven need...but they are not exactly getting good deals in the trades.
Really? You don't think we got maximum value for Wolski? The Foote trade was made under a very different management team.

The only move I really disagree with that Sherman has made is the trade for Hunwick. Trading Anderson was a necessity and we couldn't have gotten anything for him anyway, Liles is worth about a 2nd rounder and with all the puck movers in our line-up it was a good time to move him and the Blues wouldn't have traded Johnson unless they were getting something good in return.

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10-13-2011, 01:05 PM
  #123
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I heard the same thing. I wasnt being sarcastic...
I got ya...couldn't tell

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10-13-2011, 02:35 PM
  #124
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Really? You don't think we got maximum value for Wolski? The Foote trade was made under a very different management team.

The only move I really disagree with that Sherman has made is the trade for Hunwick. Trading Anderson was a necessity and we couldn't have gotten anything for him anyway, Liles is worth about a 2nd rounder and with all the puck movers in our line-up it was a good time to move him and the Blues wouldn't have traded Johnson unless they were getting something good in return.
Looking back, they probably did, but I remember the media at the time, which is what I was refering too, saying the Avs lost out on the move at the time it was made.

Again, I am not saying that what the Avs got back in return was not valuable and did not address the needs of the club. I like the way the team has been built, both via the draft, trades, and the few UFA signings... its just seems as though the trade aspect of the whole thing has been done kinda like throwing darts at a board and without taking into effect what other options are out there in terms of addressing the teams need. It feels as though Sherman does not start negotiations from right end of the spectrum and that he puts his best offer out there right away.

Even looking at the Johnson trade, which I am a big fan of getting Johnson, if the Blues had not had a run of injuries themselves, that pick could have been 20 or later or even worse this year. That trade, on paper, was salvaged somewhat by the pick being the absoloute highest it could have been. Make that pick 10-12 later in the draft, and it gets much harder to argue that it was an even deal. Yeah, I know the whole long term argument, and I do buy it somewhat, but there is a point where you have to say enough is enough with the GM getting beat in trades.

I am not calling him an incompetent GM, far from it. He is slowly building the team a new identity and adjusting the roster as needed to compete in the long run. However, he needs another voice in the room when it comes to negotiating trades, as he is too quick on the trigger IMO and does not take the time/effort/thought process to maximize the teams return.

And I will again suggest to people that even if the caps were to have matched a max offer in the 3 mill range to keep it at a 2nd for Varly and then were willing to pay him to play in the KHL on loan or in the AHL or whatever, the Avs STILL could have made the offer that could not be refused of the 1st and 2nd. Granted, there would have been a small chance that the Caps would have then said no out of spite, but I doubt it. If word got out that the Caps had declined such a deal, there would have been hell to pay from the fans.

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10-13-2011, 03:15 PM
  #125
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And I will again suggest to people that even if the caps were to have matched a max offer in the 3 mill range to keep it at a 2nd for Varly and then were willing to pay him to play in the KHL on loan or in the AHL or whatever, the Avs STILL could have made the offer that could not be refused of the 1st and 2nd. Granted, there would have been a small chance that the Caps would have then said no out of spite, but I doubt it. If word got out that the Caps had declined such a deal, there would have been hell to pay from the fans.
Before you start spouting off that Sherman needs someone to hold his hand in negotiations you should know that if an RFA is sent an offer sheet by team A (Colorado) and team B (Washington) matches the offer, team B cannot trade the player in question, for a year I believe.


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Can a team trade a Restricted Free Agent who has signed an Offer Sheet?

No. Once an offer sheet has been signed, the original team has only to options: match the offer or let the player go.

Can a team match an Offer Sheet and then trade the player?

No. If the original team chooses to accept, or “match” the offer sheet, the player cannot be traded for one year.
So, Sherman, Varlamov and GMGM have only a few ways to make such a deal work. Which I am going to outline right now.

1. GMGM Offer's Varlamov what he can in a cap world, with no promise of being #1 or enough money. When Varlamov has said he wanted that assurance. Varlamov declines and either the parties go to arbitration or Varlamov holds out and does not start training camp, basically being handcuffed into sticking around against his own wishes.
2. The only other options for Varlamov at this point are playing in Russia, his home country or hoping for a trade. He's on a team he isn't needed on, and team team who his agent spoke out about concerning their medical staff. He'll make more money there no way around it.
3. Last option is hope for a trade. Knowing that the team in question cannot just throw out an offer sheet at an asset willy-nilly (It seems like a great way to severe relations between two GMs). Even then, an offer sheet is no sure fire way to get your guy as outlined above.

Let's face it, what other young superstar potential goalies are readily available to the Avalanche? Bernier... maybe, but it's possible that LA keeps him and Quick until they have to make a choice. With a market that is bound to have more buyers than sellers prices are going to be high. The main difference between Varlamov and these other goalies is that he has playoff ass kicking experience.

That's why this deal made perfect sense to me. /essay

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