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Subban - Signs of a sophomore slump

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Old
10-17-2011, 12:21 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I think what the poster is trying to say is the JM benching of PK last year has been heralded around here like some super great strategy that helped PK get back on track when reality is it killed his confidence and he didn't play well again until the lineup was decimated with injuries and he knew his job was safe, I tend to agree with him.

So, saying it helped last year as if it were absolute fact even though it is not the case. The time line in my memory is a lot closer to the other posters memory, he still struggled immediately upon return for a few games until his spot became secure. Benching him now as our number 1 dman wouldn't help us and certainly wouldn't help him.
well that's the thing, although there's other factors as well, I have a hard time believing injuries (that pretty much guaranteed him of a spot at the time) were a factor in him playing better...

I mean, as far as being guaranteed a spot for the time being, he's pretty much in the same boat this season, all we have is 6 healthy bodies on D... and yet, he isnt playing well...

Now, if you're telling me the players we have arent the same, there's no Hamrlik to take #1 spot and all... I'd agree, but that has nothing to do with injuries.

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10-17-2011, 12:25 PM
  #77
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A similar thing happened in Buffalo with Tyler Myers in Buffalo last year during his sophomore season. He started trying to do too much, making plays more complicated than what they needed to be instead of taking the simpler easier route, and generally playing quite poorly. However, soon after he calmed down and dominated as he did in his rookie season.

Even Schenn in Toronto had his 2nd season begin poorly before picking it up.

As a non-Montreal fan, I can tell you that Subban will be fine.

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10-17-2011, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well that's the thing, although there's other factors as well, I have a hard time believing injuries (that pretty much guaranteed him of a spot at the time) were a factor in him playing better...

I mean, as far as being guaranteed a spot for the time being, he's pretty much in the same boat this season, all we have is 6 healthy bodies on D... and yet, he isnt playing well...

Now, if you're telling me the players we have arent the same, there's no Hamrlik to take #1 spot and all... I'd agree, but that has nothing to do with injuries.
Sure, but it's 4 games, I don't consider this much of anything, I was just pointing out the other posters belief from last year, PK confidence was down because he outperformed others and still was benched.

As far as neofury goes, he's been on ignore forever and I don't miss anything he has to say

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10-17-2011, 12:28 PM
  #79
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well that's the thing, although there's other factors as well, I have a hard time believing injuries (that pretty much guaranteed him of a spot at the time) were a factor in him playing better...

I mean, as far as being guaranteed a spot for the time being, he's pretty much in the same boat this season, all we have is 6 healthy bodies on D... and yet, he isnt playing well...

Now, if you're telling me the players we have arent the same, there's no Hamrlik to take #1 spot and all... I'd agree, but that has nothing to do with injuries.
Yes it does, because Markov isn't there, Spacek isn't there, Campoli isn't there.

Among the '6 healthy bodies' you mention, 2 are sophomores, while 2 others are rookies in the NHL. Only 2 have experience and not one of the two is a top pairing D, and only one of the two can actually make a case for a 2nd pairing position.

When Subban was trusted into the #1 D position last year, he had Wiz, Hammer, Spacek and Gill for support, he had plenty of time to round his game shape and get settled into the role. Who does he have this year? Out of the 5 Ds who could give him support, only 2 are there. Let's not forget that he also missed a part of the camp with injury.

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10-17-2011, 12:31 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Sure, but it's 4 games, I don't consider this much of anything, I was just pointing out the other posters belief from last year, PK confidence was down because he outperformed others and still was benched.

As far as neofury goes, he's been on ignore forever and I don't miss anything he has to say
meh, PK doesnt strike me as a guy who has confidence issues.

But even then, there's no general rules with players... some needs a pat in the back, others needs to be told things they're doing wrong (vid sessions, more time in practice, etc) and there's some who need to sit for a little while...

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10-17-2011, 12:37 PM
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meh, PK doesnt strike me as a guy who has confidence issues.

But even then, there's no general rules with players... some needs a pat in the back, others needs to be told things they're doing wrong (vid sessions, more time in practice, etc) and there's some who need to sit for a little while...
Anyways, its a matter of perception, one things for sure, last years situation that led to his benching and this years are drastically different. This year we would be benching our number 1 d all whilst having 3 rookies in the lineup and would likely need a call up and a 4th rookie iced, there is no chance in hell he'll be benched under the current climate.

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10-17-2011, 12:39 PM
  #82
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Anyways, its a matter of perception, one things for sure, last years situation that led to his benching and this years are drastically different. This year we would be benching our number 1 d all whilst having 3 rookies in the lineup and would likely need a call up and a 4th rookie iced, there is no chance in hell he'll be benched under the current climate.
haha! God no!! 4 rookies! think some of us would have to developp a sense of humor pretty fast

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10-17-2011, 12:55 PM
  #83
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Subban has sucked. No denying that. All he needs to do to change that is is stop trying to be a 1-man show. Realize he has a team surrounding him. He probably feels pressure to carry the team, but he'll soon realize that he best play smart hockey or the retards will be booing him at the Bell Center.
Subban is getting 23-25 minutes from coach Martin (or D coach).

Subban will be fine I even expect him to be way more than fine, sure he's made some mistakes and his pts total isn't quite there yet (for my hockey pool! ), but...our Habs need Subban like you wouldn't believe it (especially since Markov can rarely be counted on to help our Habs). At worst give Subban 20-21minutes instead of 23 or 25, but no doubt about this one...we need him and badly.

Our most important players are Price and Subban,imo, and...Price has not been stellar but he's an excellent goalie who is allowed to have some average games sometimes. Patrick Roy had some average games and was booed for it (Roy won Cups in '86 and '93 and also brought our Habs to the '89 Cup Finals, and...was still booed! What the ****!).


About him being benched last season:
I was totally against it. There should have been another way of passing the message or whatever that was. He looks like the kind of dman who can play 82 games EVERY Season and coach Marting ruined this streak (the streak starts now...if he can play ALL of 82 games).



Subban>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Markov
(when it comes to knowing who is around him...the one going for the violent bodycheck...Subban knows how to neutralize the big bodycheckers...he brings 'em in to the corners going with them, he doesn't wait for the bodychecker to give him one...hence why I think Subban is way less injury prone vs Markov...Markov could learn about this aspect by watching Subban)


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10-17-2011, 01:18 PM
  #84
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Two additional Subban thoughts:

He had a back injury in camp, as I recall. He didn't have his usual zip in Toronto, Winnipeg or against Calgary. Perhaps this is still bugging him?

Then, against Colorado, he seems to have over compensated and just tried to do way too much. The upside was he had that flair and zip back, the downside was, he was over doing it.

He was at his best last season when he picked his spots. Made the simple plays when that's what he had, then broke out the big plays when he had a chance.

I think he'll be fine, because I think this boils down to a nagging injury and timing he didn't really get back yet. He's been missing checks he'd have made last year, and getting caught when he'd normally get away. His game is a tightrope walk and give him a few weeks to get healthy and his timing down, and he'll stop falling off the wire.

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10-17-2011, 01:32 PM
  #85
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Yes it does, because Markov isn't there, Spacek isn't there, Campoli isn't there.

Among the '6 healthy bodies' you mention, 2 are sophomores, while 2 others are rookies in the NHL. Only 2 have experience and not one of the two is a top pairing D, and only one of the two can actually make a case for a 2nd pairing position.

When Subban was trusted into the #1 D position last year, he had Wiz, Hammer, Spacek and Gill for support, he had plenty of time to round his game shape and get settled into the role. Who does he have this year? Out of the 5 Ds who could give him support, only 2 are there. Let's not forget that he also missed a part of the camp with injury.
I dont remember those two being around much last season either...

and Wiz & Hammer arent sidelined with injuries, they signed elsewhere... so...

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10-17-2011, 01:35 PM
  #86
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I dont remember those two being around much last season either...
True, but Hamrlik, Wiz and (I can't believe I'm saying this) Spacek were.

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10-17-2011, 01:47 PM
  #87
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True, but Hamrlik, Wiz and (I can't believe I'm saying this) Spacek were.
well, Markov was injured most of last season, just like he is now. Campoli wasnt with us last season and isnt playing now either cause of injuries... Wiz and Hammer are elsewhere, they signed new contracts with other teams...

so, really, there's no reason to bring injuries as a reason for PK playing badly...

inexperience, (lack of) leadership, talent ? maybe... but injuries ? come on now...

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10-17-2011, 02:32 PM
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He has played very poorly, that's for sure. Anything more than that, is uncertain.

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10-17-2011, 02:57 PM
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well, Markov was injured most of last season, just like he is now. Campoli wasnt with us last season and isnt playing now either cause of injuries... Wiz and Hammer are elsewhere, they signed new contracts with other teams...

so, really, there's no reason to bring injuries as a reason for PK playing badly...

inexperience, (lack of) leadership, talent ? maybe... but injuries ? come on now...
I am aware of where they went, but the fact is he was insulted within the depth chart last season far more than this season.

Last year he had Hamrlik, Spacek and Wiz playing key minutes in addition to himself.

So, you can delete three names from the top 4 last season and replace them with one new name (Gorges).

Thus, he has moved up the depth chart considerably compared to last year.

People are sometimes taking a narrow view of this. To me Weber is playing great as a 5/6 defender, even though technically you could argue he's replacing Markov or Campoli or whatever. Obviously, when a top 4 D goes out, and a bottom 2 D comes in, they are not actually the replacement. Everyone above them jumps up a slot and the team I do not believe is struggling because the bottom three guys are struggling. The team is struggling because the guys who were supposed to be bottom 4 are playing in the top 2.

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10-17-2011, 03:04 PM
  #90
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I was obviously kidding. I think it as ridiculous to speak about a slump 4games in. People need to know the difference between a slump and a streak. We make fun leafs fans for jumping on the McCarthur bandwagon last year, 82g in 82gp, how many times did we say that? This is no different.
I don't think people are writing him off 4 games in dude but he's making the same kinds of mistakes that he made last season. I don't see this as a slump... A slump is not getting points or being invisible... these are unforced errors that are happening because of inexperience. 4 games or not, those kinds of mistakes are based on bad decision making wouldn't be happening with a veteran blueliner - Those kinds of mistakes can't be chalked up as a 'slump'.

I think the reality is that we're going to see more of those kinds of mistakes this season... and that's okay. He's in his sophomore year and he'll improve as he goes. But I think he's probably not as ready as some of us thought he might be to assume a number one role. He's got it now by default and we're probably asking too much of him because we don't really have anyone else to go to... but it is what it is. The fans just have to stay patient with him though because Rome wasn't built in a day.

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10-17-2011, 03:53 PM
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Yeah.. How do you figure that out? He was working ouy twice a day everyday with his two brothers all summer long.
were you here this summer?

Until July 1st at least Subban was in a promotional event once or twice a week. He went to Haiti for a couple of days as well.

At some point he played basket ball outside for a cause and he had a belly...

Grand prix event...he went to Toronto also for another event...

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10-17-2011, 04:02 PM
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were you here this summer?

Until July 1st at least Subban was in a promotional event once or twice a week. He went to Haiti for a couple of days as well.

At some point he played basket ball outside for a cause and he had a belly...

Grand prix event...he went to Toronto also for another event...
How dare that son of a ***** be a human during the offseason?! How dare he?!!!

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10-17-2011, 04:15 PM
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How dare that son of a ***** be a human during the offseason?! How dare he?!!!
???

His an NHL player now. Its his first contract year, he has the potential to make so much money he could afford to be very human every single day for the rest of his life.

If you want to be the best you have to work for it.

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10-17-2011, 05:20 PM
  #94
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???

His an NHL player now. Its his first contract year, he has the potential to make so much money he could afford to be very human every single day for the rest of his life.

If you want to be the best you have to work for it.
I don't think we have to worry about Subban working out or not...everything we have read and see about Subban is all about working out.

Isn't he a ''gym rat''? (always working out with his trainers and at the gym).
Heck I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised. Subban seems to have lots of pride in wearing the CH.

Subban is the least of worries on our Habs. Markov is the worst of our worries...he better show up soon and play like a 6mil defenceman.

Carey Price and PK Subban haven't played their best...yet. Patience.
There are what? 77-78 games left.

Huge games coming up...Sabres (great, clean team that reminds me a bit of our Habs!), Pens (no Crosby? no Malkin?), and Saturday vs the Leaves (never seen Phaneuf and Kessel so hot as Leaves).
Huge games.

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10-17-2011, 05:31 PM
  #95
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Subban has not played a single good game and is making stupid mistakes. Is this the start of that dreaded slump or its nothing?
If you take into consideration the fact that Subban is playing the role of big brother to rookies Weber , Diaz and Emelin in his sophomore season you must admit that mistakes are bound to happen . Hamrlik will be missed

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10-17-2011, 08:37 PM
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I don't think people are writing him off 4 games in dude but he's making the same kinds of mistakes that he made last season. I don't see this as a slump... A slump is not getting points or being invisible... these are unforced errors that are happening because of inexperience. 4 games or not, those kinds of mistakes are based on bad decision making wouldn't be happening with a veteran blueliner - Those kinds of mistakes can't be chalked up as a 'slump'.

I think the reality is that we're going to see more of those kinds of mistakes this season... and that's okay. He's in his sophomore year and he'll improve as he goes. But I think he's probably not as ready as some of us thought he might be to assume a number one role. He's got it now by default and we're probably asking too much of him because we don't really have anyone else to go to... but it is what it is. The fans just have to stay patient with him though because Rome wasn't built in a day.
I agree. He's young, he will make mistakes, it's only normal. Nothing to worry about and it's not a slump.

As far as him having the #1 role, I never thought he should take on that role. Last year, during the many Gill vs Hammer discussions, the main argument for keeping Hammer was that he could step in to fill a more important role effectively in case of injuries, whereas Gill would only be helpful on the PK. To me, this was our biggest mistake. I have no issues with re-sign Markov instead of Wiz, matter of fact, I'd have done the same, but Gill over Hammer? That was just retarded. I will never understand the logic behind this move. My guess is they felt Spacek could fill in Hammer's shoes, but that didn't work out too good so far.
Hammer would have helped PK a lot.

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10-17-2011, 08:43 PM
  #97
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I agree. He's young, he will make mistakes, it's only normal. Nothing to worry about and it's not a slump.

As far as him having the #1 role, I never thought he should take on that role. Last year, during the many Gill vs Hammer discussions, the main argument for keeping Hammer was that he could step in to fill a more important role effectively in case of injuries, whereas Gill would only be helpful on the PK. To me, this was our biggest mistake. I have no issues with re-sign Markov instead of Wiz, matter of fact, I'd have done the same, but Gill over Hammer? That was just retarded. I will never understand the logic behind this move. My guess is they felt Spacek could fill in Hammer's shoes, but that didn't work out too good so far.
Hammer would have helped PK a lot.
Agreed, we will continue to miss Hammer all year long. Gill has been awful as well, PK isn't alone here. The difference being, that PK makes glaring mistakes from time to time, but he's usually pretty effective when he doesn't make that one stupid play. Gill is useless most of the time.

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10-17-2011, 09:03 PM
  #98
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???

His an NHL player now. Its his first contract year, he has the potential to make so much money he could afford to be very human every single day for the rest of his life.

If you want to be the best you have to work for it.
I saw the Basketball footage. It looks like he has a belly (looks can be deceiving), but if you saw any of his offseason training videos you would know that he is in tremendous shape and is a physical phenom. There is a reason why he can skate like the wind and hit like a truck.

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10-17-2011, 09:40 PM
  #99
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Agreed, we will continue to miss Hammer all year long. Gill has been awful as well, PK isn't alone here. The difference being, that PK makes glaring mistakes from time to time, but he's usually pretty effective when he doesn't make that one stupid play. Gill is useless most of the time.
Not sure why Gill got so much blind love from many fans last year, really, I don't get it. Fans were so desperate for things to pump Gill with that they'd say he has elite poke checking, which really means nothing. They also kept saying that Gill helped PK tremendously, where as the ''detractors'' were saying it's the other way around, that Gill benefited a lot more from playing with PK than without.
I believe this has become a lot more evident now that PK isn't playing as well as he can.
The fact Gill doesn't have Hammer, Sopel, Mara, Spacek around to compare his slow speed with, has made him look 5x slower than he did last year.
Gill has looked completely useless so far this year, absolutely useless.

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10-17-2011, 09:48 PM
  #100
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Two additional Subban thoughts:

He had a back injury in camp, as I recall. He didn't have his usual zip in Toronto, Winnipeg or against Calgary. Perhaps this is still bugging him?

Then, against Colorado, he seems to have over compensated and just tried to do way too much. The upside was he had that flair and zip back, the downside was, he was over doing it.

He was at his best last season when he picked his spots. Made the simple plays when that's what he had, then broke out the big plays when he had a chance.

I think he'll be fine, because I think this boils down to a nagging injury and timing he didn't really get back yet. He's been missing checks he'd have made last year, and getting caught when he'd normally get away. His game is a tightrope walk and give him a few weeks to get healthy and his timing down, and he'll stop falling off the wire.
Except he was playing great against Colorado until he started trying to be a one-man show. He screwed up really bad trying to be Bobby Orr, cost the team a goal, and played poorly for quite awhile after that.

He can do that all he wants when we are up 3-goals in a game or something. Or when he's NOT the last man back. If Gill (or whoever was on the ice with him) had of been behind him when he started that rush, I wouldn't have cared because he was trying to create something. Doing it with no one behind you though is suicide.

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