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Old
12-20-2011, 08:28 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Would Patrick Roy fit that team? He has an offensive system.

However, the only way the Blue Jackets may have a chance to get Roy in the offseason, because of the likely heavy competition that the Habs and the Avs will pose, is if the Blue Jackets promised Roy both the GM and the head coach positions.
I'm betting your Habs hire Boucher in summer, and I hope the Blue Jackets stay as far away from Roy as possible.

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Would you like Randy Carlyle or Jacques Martin instead? Maybe either coach can be had for less money than Roy would.

And how Roy would have that kind of success in the Q when he is GM and head coach of the Remparts at the same time? Granted, he has been uneven as a GM in major junior hockey, but he can't be worse than Howson.
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12-20-2011, 09:19 PM
  #727
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Nikki 6, beyond his numbers, has shown excellent hand/eye, poise under duress and hockey IQ. If the numbers trail off, I still like the player long term.

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12-20-2011, 09:27 PM
  #728
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It is difficult for me to adequately express just how much that statement depressed me.

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12-20-2011, 09:44 PM
  #729
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Translation: The answer is in the room....gee, we've never heard that before

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12-20-2011, 10:01 PM
  #730
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Translation: The answer is in the room....gee, we've never heard that before
If coaching is not the problem and the players just have to play better, I ask "who picked the players in the room?"

The way I read his statements, Howson (perhaps unintentionally) just took full responsibility for the worst club in the NHL.

Of course, I strongly disagree with his assessment of the coaching, but he picked that too.

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12-21-2011, 01:58 AM
  #731
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You have a hard time parsing words, apparently. If you want to define being on a pace to give up 18 goals more than last year's pathetic defense as anything "significant" be my guest. The fact of the matter is that I think he kept the 3 most promising parts of last year's defense.
You must have a different definition of 'significant' than anyone else. Significant change in and of itself has nothing to do with results. Arguing that significant changes weren't made to a defense where only 3 (and you admit the most promising 3) players were kept by November is an example of significant change to me.

Clearly Howson made some poor choices on new guys, and hedged his bets on players improving or becoming NHL ready and the result is quite poor, but to say he made no significant changes is just you being argumentative.

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12-21-2011, 03:57 AM
  #732
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Originally Posted by LBC Vapo View Post
I know it sounds like an exaggeration, but honestly, since the club was formed, what have they done RIGHT?

It's comical and sad to see the Blue Jackets constantly get high draft picks only to throw them away by mismanaging them. Steve Mason was absolutely rushed into the NHL and now he's paying for it, now Ryan Johansen was rushed into the NHL and he's paying for it. The majority of your first round picks are either gone or about to be gone, except for Rick Nash.

And as much as CBJ is currently spending on players, it's absurd to look at that roster and imagine those players getting paid that much. RJ Umberger is not worth that money, Rick Nash has not been worth that money, The Wiz is absolutely not worth that money, Steve Mason isn't worth that money, Tyutin is not worth that money, Methot is not worth that money. The majority of the players currently on the team would be depth signings to most of the other teams on the NHL, but they're "top guys" in Columbus. (Recent examples: Letestu was about to be put on waivers before he was traded, Nikitin was a healthy scratch / AHLer, now he's a top pairing defenseman somehow barely keeping his head above water for the time being.) That is ABSURD to think about when you compare CBJ's spending to the spending of other teams.

Which brings me to Rick Nash. Everyone in the league knows the talent is there, but when you watch him play, can anyone honestly say they're happy with him being on this team? He averages about 20 minutes of ice time a night and he probably puts forth effort for about 1:30-2:00 of that. He's considered a power forward and very rarely uses his size to do much of anything, and defensively he's worthless (-18 as of right now.) He's just lazy. And this is entirely my opinion, but think about it, if you had any competitive drive at all, any desire to one day succeed, would you, in your supposed prime, sign a contract, with a no move clause, that takes you into your mid-30s, with the Columbus Blue Jackets?
I guess to add to your post -- which may be brutal to some to read, but is really encompassing of our team and has a lot of very solid, respectable viewpoints in it...

Let's revisit pre-Arniel hiring. Who was on our radar? Guy Boucher. Then he suddenly goes to Tampa. But let us take our CBJ glasses off for a moment. You can't blame the guy for doing that. Anyone smart in his mind would go to Tampa, too. Would you rather have Nash, Umberger and hope for Steve Mason to regain form, or go to the mix of Vinny and Marty with Stammer and Hedman?

And then I add in the fact that how many times have I seen in a GDT where Rick Nash is attacked in some way, for being fat, lazy, slow, not a leader, blah blah blah... Heck we even had a thread on Rick Nash being all of these things at one time.

Our team has issues. The fact we have a fire Howson, fire Arniel AND a fire everyone thread all at the same time shows something has to change. This isn't the Indianapolis Colts losing Peyton Manning and going to hell in a handbasket. This is a complete and utter mess.

My question that I've posed privately to others: To continue a NFL analogy, are we the San Francisco 49ers of this year, with all the pieces in place but just needing a Jim Harbaugh to replace Mike Singletary? Or are we the Cleveland Browns ver. 2.0, with one fluke playoff year and lots of rebuilding since? I hope for the former, but I fear we are the latter.

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12-21-2011, 07:48 AM
  #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBC Vapo View Post
...if you had any competitive drive at all, any desire to one day succeed, would you, in your supposed prime, sign a contract, with a no move clause, that takes you into your mid-30s, with the Columbus Blue Jackets?
Yes, if I thought I was good enough to lead the team to success and that I would get the support needed to win.

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Old
12-21-2011, 08:13 AM
  #734
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Originally Posted by Moo View Post
My question that I've posed privately to others: To continue a NFL analogy, are we the San Francisco 49ers of this year, with all the pieces in place but just needing a Jim Harbaugh to replace Mike Singletary? Or are we the Cleveland Browns ver. 2.0, with one fluke playoff year and lots of rebuilding since? I hope for the former, but I fear we are the latter.
We're the Browns/Indians/Cavs. In fact there are many that refer to Columbus as "Cleveland South".

It's more than just the GM, coach or players - it's about a total team culture that accepts losing too easily. Teams know that if they can rachet up the intensity just a little the Jackets won't match it (usually in the 3rd period). Arniel must go because he does not know how to get the most out of these players. But that won't happen until we get a new GM. We won't get a new GM until we get a new President. We won't get a new President until...

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12-21-2011, 08:37 AM
  #735
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Originally Posted by pete goegan View Post
Yes, if I thought I was good enough to lead the team to success and that I would get the support needed to win.
Right on, Pete. If I was in Nash's shoes, I would have done the same thing. Here's the script Nash was likely thinking of when he re-signed:

Be top draft pick, thereby going to crappy team; become Captain at a young age (because it's a crappy team and no one else around to take it); gradually get surrounded by better players; start winning; win a couple of Cups or so; retire a hero to the city of the team; jersey retirement, hall of fame, statue outside arena all possible.

Players who have followed this script? Yzerman, Sakic, Lemieux.

An alternative script is to try to bypass the 'gradually' step above and go to a better team (force trade or jump in free agency) with the goal of winning championships more quickly. See Lindros, Eric and James, Lebron (OK, not hockey). These players don't (didn't) get the love from fans their talent would suggest.

The question is whether the reason Nash seems to be going off-script is because: 1) he can't make players around him better; 2) the GM can't surround him with right players; 3) the coach can't get the job done and doesn't use the players appropriately.

My concern is that the problem is a combination of all 3 factors above. However, bringing this thread back on topic, I still wonder if #3 isn't the biggest one.

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Old
12-21-2011, 08:48 AM
  #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
Right on, Pete. If I was in Nash's shoes, I would have done the same thing. Here's the script Nash was likely thinking of when he re-signed:

Be top draft pick, thereby going to crappy team; become Captain at a young age (because it's a crappy team and no one else around to take it); gradually get surrounded by better players; start winning; win a couple of Cups or so; retire a hero to the city of the team; jersey retirement, hall of fame, statue outside arena all possible.

Players who have followed this script? Yzerman, Sakic, Lemieux.

An alternative script is to try to bypass the 'gradually' step above and go to a better team (force trade or jump in free agency) with the goal of winning championships more quickly. See Lindros, Eric and James, Lebron (OK, not hockey). These players don't (didn't) get the love from fans their talent would suggest.

The question is whether the reason Nash seems to be going off-script is because: 1) he can't make players around him better; 2) the GM can't surround him with right players; 3) the coach can't get the job done and doesn't use the players appropriately.

My concern is that the problem is a combination of all 3 factors above. However, bringing this thread back on topic, I still wonder if #3 isn't the biggest one.
Good post.

To your last point, I believe it is a combination. I'm hoping Patrick can start modeling some of that from the just-below-the-top down.

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Old
12-21-2011, 08:57 AM
  #737
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Originally Posted by Nanabijou View Post
Right on, Pete. If I was in Nash's shoes, I would have done the same thing. Here's the script Nash was likely thinking of when he re-signed:

Be top draft pick, thereby going to crappy team; become Captain at a young age (because it's a crappy team and no one else around to take it); gradually get surrounded by better players; start winning; win a couple of Cups or so; retire a hero to the city of the team; jersey retirement, hall of fame, statue outside arena all possible.

Players who have followed this script? Yzerman, Sakic, Lemieux.

An alternative script is to try to bypass the 'gradually' step above and go to a better team (force trade or jump in free agency) with the goal of winning championships more quickly. See Lindros, Eric and James, Lebron (OK, not hockey). These players don't (didn't) get the love from fans their talent would suggest.

The question is whether the reason Nash seems to be going off-script is because: 1) he can't make players around him better; 2) the GM can't surround him with right players; 3) the coach can't get the job done and doesn't use the players appropriately.

My concern is that the problem is a combination of all 3 factors above. However, bringing this thread back on topic, I still wonder if #3 isn't the biggest one.
I think its a combination of all three Nana. We can talk all we want about how great Nash is for Team Canada at the Olympics and the WC's, but the question I have is why NOBODY, ever to play in this organization, can seem to gell with Nash to form this great duo that seems so obvious to be easy to complete. Everyone this organization has ever plugged in has been, at best, competent, with Nash... No players seemingly play any better with him.

We've never really delved into whether he makes other players better, he should, he has the tools necessary to free up other players and the skill to capitalize on rebounds, loose pucks, etc. When have we seen Nash at his best? When he's surrounded by other elite talent, except, so far, this season in Columbus with Carter.

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Old
12-21-2011, 08:58 AM
  #738
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Good post.

To your last point, I believe it is a combination. I'm hoping Patrick can start modeling some of that from the just-below-the-top down.
I agree, Nana articulated my feelings re:Nash very well. And I, too, am placing a lot of faith in Patrick. I certainly hope it's not misplaced.

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Old
12-21-2011, 09:03 AM
  #739
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And I, too, am placing a lot of faith in Patrick. I certainly hope it's not misplaced.
He's really the last hope for any sort of positive steps forward for this franchise right now.... I hope the braintrust that is doesn't tune him out....

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12-21-2011, 09:26 AM
  #740
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I would like to reminisce for a minute....

There was once a President of a crappy hockey team. He put all his faith in a youngling GM with bountiful experience as an assistant GM. When faced with an under performing team, he boldly claimed that the GM was his man and we needed a change not long after stating Hitch hockey was Blue Jackets hockey.

With the addition of a new HC, one that was supposed to energize the team with up tempo offensive hockey, we were off to a good start. That didn't last long and before years end we entered a slump as deep as the one the previous year. That slump continued on to the next year and actually worsened, despite adding, what, 10M in payroll?

We exited the slump a bit with a change to a system more focused on play in your own end. That didn't last long and we have now entered a slump again.

The new, shiny, head coach has had the Blue Jackets at the bottom of the league in 5 on 5 and specialty team play for the better part of a season and a half now with no sign of improvement. The GM has continued to allow the status quo to remain mostly unchanged.

Now on the the point.....

In the immortal words of Mike Priest, this scrapping man of a President, said a month or two ago......

The losing can't continue.

I guess if you are Mike Priest or Scott Howson, it can.

Thank you Mike Priest for rarely being true to your word, you are an inspiration to us all. And thank you Scott Howson, for being as confusing of a GM that has existed. At least you aren't Garth Snow I guess.

Merry Christmas to the GM front office and coaching staff. May this be the last time I wish you Merry Christmas as members of the CBJ family.

And yes, I would take Hitch hockey over what we are seeing any day of the week.

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12-21-2011, 09:44 AM
  #741
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And yes, I would take Hitch hockey over what we are seeing any day of the week.
Nice story. Almost like I was there.

But for someone who takes issue with folks bringing up the previous HC, calling for them to "move on," you're awfully stuck in the past.

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12-21-2011, 09:48 AM
  #742
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Nice story. Almost like I was there.

But for someone who takes issue with folks bringing up the previous HC, calling for them to "move on," you're awfully stuck in the past.
You don't have to have Hitch to play Hitch hockey... Should have been more clear I suppose, but you do have a valid point. It was more about the time, the style of hockey, and an actual plan then the man himself. It was about having a feeling of progress, about a sustainable direction. That is a million miles from where we are now.

However, it was a distraction from the main point.

The losing can't continue and, yet, it does.


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12-21-2011, 10:11 AM
  #743
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You don't have to have Hitch to play Hitch hockey... Should have been more clear I suppose, but you do have a valid point. It was more about the time, the style of hockey, and an actual plan then the man himself. It was about having a feeling of progress, about a sustainable direction. That is a million miles from where we are now.

However, it was a distraction from the main point.

The losing can't continue and, yet, it does.
Right with you, of course.

Not going to get into my disagreements with your above contentions about progress and direction. I was no more confident then than I am now. And despite whatever discussions I've had on the subject here, I don't know what needs done to fix it.

Problem is, there are people whose job it is to know, and I don't think they have any more idea than I do.

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12-21-2011, 10:17 AM
  #744
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I was no more confident then than I am now. And despite whatever discussions I've had on the subject here, I don't know what needs done to fix it.
I did until the FA period of 09.

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Problem is, there are people whose job it is to know, and I don't think they have any more idea than I do.
Very true. I do think our senior adviser will have some ideas, the question is how much will we listen?

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12-21-2011, 04:35 PM
  #745
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I'm betting your Habs hire Boucher in summer, and I hope the Blue Jackets stay as far away from Roy as possible.
I would take even Patrick Roy over Arniel or Howson any day of the week, despite the high cost of getting Roy signed. And why would you want the Blue Jackets to stay as far away from Roy? That guy is a high-risk, high-reward guy.

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I'm really impressed that Bob Sauve' is selling his client on HfBoards!
Why? Who would be Sauve's client, JM or Carlyle?

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12-21-2011, 04:43 PM
  #746
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And why would you want the Blue Jackets to stay as far away from Roy? That guy is a high-risk, high-reward guy.
**** high-risk anything. Every time we've tried that path we've gotten hideously burned for it, even times when it wasn't obvious that was the path we're taking.

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12-21-2011, 04:46 PM
  #747
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The next coach needs to be a Torterelli type. A physically demanding task master that doesn't put up with any crap, makes the players practice at a pace befitting a NHL team, and is not afraid to scratch the team captain or any other underperforming veteran player.

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12-21-2011, 04:53 PM
  #748
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The next coach needs to be a Torterelli type. A physically demanding task master that doesn't put up with any crap, makes the players practice at a pace befitting a NHL team, and is not afraid to scratch the team captain or any other underperforming veteran player.
Patrick Roy fits that description, but since so many of you says that he's not worth the risk he seemingly carries...

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12-21-2011, 06:12 PM
  #749
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I would take even Patrick Roy over Arniel or Howson any day of the week, despite the high cost of getting Roy signed. And why would you want the Blue Jackets to stay as far away from Roy? That guy is a high-risk, high-reward guy.
Columbus needs an experienced coach and no way should they bow down to kiss Roy's ass. Please hire him in Montreal. If they can't hire an experienced coach, I'd rather have Cunneyworth here, and he won't have to learn a new language either.



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Why? Who would be Sauve's client, JM or Carlyle?
None other than Patrick Roy. He is Sauve's client.

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12-21-2011, 07:03 PM
  #750
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Patrick Roy fits that description, but since so many of you says that he's not worth the risk he seemingly carries...
There's not many coaches that have jumped straight from juniors to the NHL. Hunter in Washington right now is one such case, but he also spent more years as a coach in juniors than Roy has.

It could work, it could fail spectacularly. Without any NHL or AHL coaching experience either as an assistant or head coach, it would have to be a roll-the-dice move that would scare me off at this stage, but that's just me.

I'm probably jaded on Roy because, off the top of my head, I can't really name any all-star players that were successful coaches. I'm sure there had to be, but I can't think of too many. Larry Robinson, I guess, didn't do too badly. Gretz, Bryan Trottier, Bill Barber, Dennis Savard all come to mind as all-stars who didn't have particularly successful coaching careers.

It seems it's more the grinder character players that become successful coaches. I'm not sure Roy could relate to the bulk of players under his charge.

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