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The "Fire Arniel" Thread

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Old
10-22-2011, 10:15 PM
  #151
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Not that I'm advocating him, but anyone think it's possible Hitch has had any kind of revelation regarding his coaching strategy in the "new nhl" during his hiatus? He's had to have done some thinking when seeing all these coaching positions go to other guys.

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10-22-2011, 10:16 PM
  #152
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I can't see them firing him before Wiz has a few games and we get some players back...

We don't seem the reactionary type.

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10-22-2011, 10:17 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I hope not. We played without 3 defensmen from our roster, first center and we can be angry on Mason but he plays the eight game and was in the net yesterday. I would wait after Wiz return against Detroit.
Not having some players does not change the fact that anytime this team as a lead late in the 3rd Arneil goes into prevent mode and loses the game.

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10-22-2011, 10:20 PM
  #154
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Not having some players does not change the fact that anytime this team as a lead late in the 3rd Arneil goes into prevent mode and loses the game.
Yes? IMO not. Ou defense was not good and who can for defense? only a coach? who played... two young d-men and one d-man who will play in AHL or willbe the seventh d-man.

Or some players do not play good and I would trade some players before firing coach or GM.

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10-22-2011, 11:11 PM
  #155
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Arniel is not to blame for the turnovers and roster full of kids.

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10-22-2011, 11:31 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by JACKETfan View Post
Arniel is not to blame for the turnovers and roster full of kids.
True

But he coud have played a backup GT in game three or four before they where all injured... Arniel is not out of the woods yet.

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10-23-2011, 09:07 AM
  #157
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True

But he coud have played a backup GT in game three or four before they where all injured... Arniel is not out of the woods yet.
Yes. The "Mason gives us the best chance to win" argument holds no water when your team is 0-7-1 or whatever the hell our record is. Its not like it can get much worse if you threw York in there.

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10-23-2011, 10:16 AM
  #158
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As I've mentioned in other threads, my dad has lived in Winnipeg for the last few years and so was a Moose fan. I kept tabs on the Moose and I was very impressed with Arniel's work. Although I was intrigued with Boucher, I was very happy with Arniel's hire and looked forward to what his 'up-tempo' system would do.

I just don't know what to think anymore. Is it the injuries? No doubt that is contributing, but I can't get past the sickening feeling that Arniel's original system got broken by the other NHL teams and now he's just scrambling to try and compensate.

The system worked great early last year, and it generated lots of scoring opportunities during the first 20 games. But from my naive eye, I felt that other teams would learn that they could hang back until the one Jacket would D would jump into the play (a hallmark of Arniel's desired system, IMHO) and then they'd have a couple of forwards spring forward on a quick turn-around that would lead to a 2-on-1. The key was to pick your moments when the the Jackets D are vulnerable. I feel once the 'book' on Arniel's system was written, everyone had a pretty good idea of how to counter it.

There's no stats on this, but I feel we give up an inordinate amount of 2-on-1's and those are going to make you pay eventually. I'll make it clear that I am only guessing, but it seemed to me last night that both the players and the coaches are so fragile with no confidence in the system that when they got the lead, they just reverted to flipping the puck down the ice, trying to avoid icing. For the last 6 minutes of the game, the team didn't even seem to try to establish puck possession in the Senators zone. They'd just flip the puck down the ice and keep 4 guys back, praying that the minutes would run out. The 'pray that time runs out' system isn't going to get you too far in the NHL.

I thought I'd be the last person calling for Arniel's firing, but I don't know if his coaching regime is recoverable. I like that guy and wish that it was, but evidence is not in his favor. I guess I'm OK with him getting a few more games with Wiz back to see if the system works better with an experienced offense-oriented defenseman back there. But, at this stage of the game, I can't really come up with a compelling argument to counter those that want him fired today.

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Old
10-23-2011, 10:19 AM
  #159
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Yes. The "Mason gives us the best chance to win" argument holds no water when your team is 0-7-1 or whatever the hell our record is. Its not like it can get much worse if you threw York in there.
He had to compare Mason and Sanford or Mason and Corbeil because Mason is ot our support... or he wanted to increase Masons selfconfidence.

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10-23-2011, 10:38 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
He had to compare Mason and Sanford or Mason and Corbeil because Mason is ot our support... or he wanted to increase Masons selfconfidence.
Or maybe Mason gives us the the best chance to win. You guys that think changing a goalie is instantly going to lead to winning games kills me. The 4th game is the game we got outshot 16-1 in the third. I'm sure Sanford or whoever else not named Mason could do it better. The Wild game, the D let the Wild's forwards skate right buy them. The last three games the D has just been sitting there. The other teams forwards have all day to shoot. There is not a goalie in the nhl that can play with that kind of D in front of him.

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10-23-2011, 10:39 AM
  #161
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I don't know why I'm the only one who's seeing it, or just the only one mentioning it. But Arniel has no concept of defense, or how to teach the team to play defense.

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10-23-2011, 10:47 AM
  #162
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I don't know why I'm the only one who's seeing it, or just the only one mentioning it. But Arniel has no concept of defense, or how to teach the team to play defense.
Wouldn't me commenting on players being left unchecked 3 feet in front of the net qualify? The comments about the structural problems and letting teams into our zone with too much speed are also along those lines.

I think people are saying it, just not as direct as you just did.

The question is, is he teaching it and they aren't executing or are they playing what he's teaching?

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10-23-2011, 10:58 AM
  #163
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One of the things that frustrates me is that Arniel was quoted in the Dispatch saying that he thought we played a great game last night. I hope that is just as comment made by lower expectations from the lineup.

We played a very aggressive high risk game and got lucky we were still in it going into the third. Play that against the Wings or the Caps and we're dead.

I don't see how you can play that way and expect not to be in the top 5 in goals allowed at the end of the year. We can only hope that we just run some of the "lesser" teams out of the arena in the first 10 minutes and just overwhelm them. Teams will adjust to that quickly, we aren't THAT skilled. Mason is just going to be facing numerous odd man rushes a night.

On a positive note, Nash did read the defensemen pinching in pretty well on numerous occasions and protected their *****. AJ was way too aggressive to the point of basically being a forward for long stretches.

That was something nice to throw out against teams not ready for it, but tape will surface on that quickly.

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:26 AM
  #164
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Funny, there were times I thought we were actually playing AJ as a forward, and had to double check the lines.

Damn if I can remember, but didn't we play him as a forward, at one point in the past? I vaguely remember something of that sort, but maybe I'm thinking of Grand Pierre?

If the game plan's risking odd-man rushes at a goalie that looks to be skating laterally through quicksand, well.....

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:31 AM
  #165
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Yes we did try aj at forward his first go around here.

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:39 AM
  #166
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There were quite few teaching moments that struck me in the closing minutes meltdown. 1)Russell has played enough hockey; 2) We aren't making the opposition pay the price for standing front of our goalie; 3) should have used his timeout later in the game; 4) need better face off options, I don't recall who lost this last two draws that ultimately cost us the game; but we've got to have better options in key situations. I won't high jack this thread but these items flow back to letting guys like Malhotra walk. We continually overpay so why not overpay for guys who seem to care and produce aka Malhotra, Torres and Garon. How son has not distinguished himself as a good judge of talent.


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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Wouldn't me commenting on players being left unchecked 3 feet in front of the net qualify? The comments about the structural problems and letting teams into our zone with too much speed are also along those lines.

I think people are saying it, just not as direct as you just did.

The question is, is he teaching it and they aren't executing or are they playing what he's teaching?

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Old
10-23-2011, 11:46 AM
  #167
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I'm not sure you can really hold the faceoff thing against the team when carter is out injured. Carter has been fantastic this season in winning draws and Vermette generally does his job in the faceoff circle very well. The other guys aren't as consistent, but you can't have Vermette out there for every single faceoff. Guarantee that if Carter were playing, at the end of the game it would only have been him or Vermette out there taking the draws.

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10-23-2011, 11:55 AM
  #168
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I've seen Mase be very vulnerable to shots from the point. Coach IMHO needs to intervene here call timeout and make sure the puck does not get back to the blue line for that long snapshot. Granted you can't win every face off but you can slow the game down and try to make sure the team is aware. BTW, Vermette slipping and falling at the blue line is totally inexcusable for a professional. I only watched the third and what I saw was a comedy, oh wait tragedy might be a better word. Funny thing about this circus is I'm to the point that I'memotionally detached from this circus. I couldn't say that 10 years ago when I bought season tickets. Needless to say this is my last year.

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10-23-2011, 12:09 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by CBJfan4evr View Post
I've seen Mase be very vulnerable to shots from the point. Coach IMHO needs to intervene here call timeout and make sure the puck does not get back to the blue line for that long snapshot. Granted you can't win every face off but you can slow the game down and try to make sure the team is aware. BTW, Vermette slipping and falling at the blue line is totally inexcusable for a professional. I only watched the third and what I saw was a comedy, oh wait tragedy might be a better word. Funny thing about this circus is I'm to the point that I'memotionally detached from this circus. I couldn't say that 10 years ago when I bought season tickets. Needless to say this is my last year.
So we're blaming our players for the condition of the ice?

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10-23-2011, 12:15 PM
  #170
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I'm sure they've seen worse. They're paid professionals. They evaluate and adjust. Quit being a homer. Vermette and Russell screwed up at key points in the game which led to this loss. They need to step up acknowledge that and move on. The culture of accepting this has got to change.

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10-23-2011, 12:17 PM
  #171
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I'm sure they've seen worse. They're paid professionals. They evaluate and adjust. Quit being a homer. Vermette and Russell screwed up at key points in the game which led to this loss. They need to step up acknowledge that and move on. The culture of accepting this has got to change.
Agreed. I don't want to hear this excuse anymore:

"When you're losing games, things like this tend to happen"

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10-23-2011, 12:24 PM
  #172
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So we're blaming our players for the condition of the ice?
Vermette seemed to be falling down a lot that last game. I was wondering if he was having issues with his skates as other guys didn't seem nearly as effected. Could've been the ice though.

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10-23-2011, 12:26 PM
  #173
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Vermette seemed to be falling down a lot that last game. I was wondering if he was having issues with his skates as other guys didn't seem nearly as effected. Could've been the ice though.
The skates were more likely the issue. Russell has had issues with his too. You would think they could change out during breaks but then again, I'm assuming Howson bought them all more than one pair of skates. LOL

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10-23-2011, 12:39 PM
  #174
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The skates were more likely the issue. Russell has had issues with his too. You would think they could change out during breaks but then again, I'm assuming Howson bought them all more than one pair of skates. LOL
Sometimes things happen in the middle of periods. I don't recall Vermette falling down a lot until the third period. I know once when I was playing in my beer league I was hopping on the ice as another guy was coming off and we clinked skate blades as we made our transition. I immediately had no edge on one of my skates and all I could do was push off the other one and hope no one noticed I could only make quick moves in one direction. Luckily it was the end of the game and my last shift.

If something happened in the beginning or middle of the third period it would take too long to fix for it to be worthwhile unless it's a MAJOR issue [like if your skate blade comes out of the holder]. Sharpening skates takes a good 5-10 minutes [maybe shorter if the guys are real pros], and untaping and unlacing skates just to switch over to another pair, retaping and relacing probably would take 10 minutes as well. It's possible that he was told or that he decided to just work through it because otherwise the team would've essentially been down a man for most of the last period.

Just speculating, of course.

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10-23-2011, 12:41 PM
  #175
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As I've mentioned in other threads, my dad has lived in Winnipeg for the last few years and so was a Moose fan. I kept tabs on the Moose and I was very impressed with Arniel's work. Although I was intrigued with Boucher, I was very happy with Arniel's hire and looked forward to what his 'up-tempo' system would do.

I just don't know what to think anymore. Is it the injuries? No doubt that is contributing, but I can't get past the sickening feeling that Arniel's original system got broken by the other NHL teams and now he's just scrambling to try and compensate.

One thing to keep in mind about Arniel's success in Manitoba is that the Moose were one of two teams-Hershey being the other-in the AHL which operated with essentially open checkbooks.

The Moose had numerous free agent veterans who were six figure earners (or thereabouts). Arniel had a very substantial advantage in that he had a roster loaded with ex-NHLers (Keane, Oulette, Krog) and many veteran AHLers who were no longer prospects and would have likely been playing in Europe had they not been signed by a team which drew 8,000/game with pricey tickets.

I don't presume to know much about Arniel, but I am very aware of the unique situation which Manitoba had as an AHL franchise. Just as in the NHL, not all AHL coaching situations are the same and Arniel certainly had one of the plum jobs in the AHL.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 10-23-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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