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IF Martin gets fired or no contract renewal, who takes his place?

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Old
10-17-2011, 08:13 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I'm curious, how do you explain his continued success strategizing & developing winning teams and NHL playerscontinually in the QJMHL? Jr hockey is typically very cyclical but he's had repeated success.

Or is he just the luckiest instinctual athlete that has had extreme luck the past 4 years or whatever?
I like Roy. I don't doubt that as a coach he is good technically and great at motivation. He`s only coached at the JR level, so obviously he is going to get better with experience. My one worry about him would be his inability to control his emotions, especially in the media spotlight. Montreal is a strange beast in the sense that these factors have to be taken into account when selecting a coach because these issues can easily become detrimental to the team and its players... I understand he has had experience with the Montreal media first hand, but I still think that as a coach the pressures are different and the media might get the better of him. Also I'm assuming behind closed doors that Roy is an intense coach, hence his ability to motivate players, but sometimes this approach can wear off. Don't get me wrong, I bet he'll make a good coach, but these would be my concerns. I would definately be more interested if he has gotten NHL expience (even as an assistant) under his belt.

Personally I don't think Martin is going anywhere, but I would hope for a more experienced coach who has a decent track record. Unfortunately the prerequisite of being bilingual shortens the list considerably.


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10-17-2011, 08:22 PM
  #127
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How does being wrong not make your point less valid? The reality is he is having success as a coach and GM. That is a fact. It proves your point wrong basically doesn't it?
Gretzky greates player ever, worst coach ever! i win!

how am i wrong? didnt i specifically say, that i am talking in generalities, and my only point was to analyze what requires to be a coach and what requires to be an athlete, and once thats done, it was to point out, that being a great athlete does not correlate in being a good coach. Im wrong, because your logic is flawed, and youve entered the world of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

whats your argument about the correlation between being a successful NHL player and being a successful NHL coach? except obviously, more examples of players becoming coaches.


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10-17-2011, 08:32 PM
  #128
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Is Don Cherry avaliable??

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10-17-2011, 08:32 PM
  #129
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I think Roy has done a great job as GM of the Remparts exploiting unique situations and rules in the QMJHL and CHL to find a way to always ice really strong team, just look at how he stole Grigorenko out from under the Knights noses.

I don't know what that says about his coaching though.

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10-17-2011, 09:50 PM
  #130
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Okay great... what was Babcock's winning percentage before Detroit hired him, Burns before the cup in Jersey, Bowman before joining Montreal, ect.....
That's exactly what I was gonna say, my point was comparing theses guys career, before they won the cup with Martin so it would be interesting to have Southernhab stats before their success to really compare them with Martin.

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10-17-2011, 10:35 PM
  #131
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Is Don Cherry avaliable??
This

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10-17-2011, 10:42 PM
  #132
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Gretzky greates player ever, worst coach ever! i win!

how am i wrong? didnt i specifically say, that i am talking in generalities, and my only point was to analyze what requires to be a coach and what requires to be an athlete, and once thats done, it was to point out, that being a great athlete does not correlate in being a good coach. Im wrong, because your logic is flawed, and youve entered the world of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correla...mply_causation

Except you fail, I already addressed this 2 days ago

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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I love the "star players" don't make good coaches because Gretzky with NO EXPERIENCE failed. You know why Gretzky failed, it wasn't because he was a star player, it was because he lacked experience.

He thought too highly of himself to learn the trade properly.


Roy will succeed in the NHL, I don't doubt it for a minute, the guy wins at everything in life. He might be a hot head but he's freakin smart. He actually thinks about what he does.

He's passionate about hockey, he cares about the game. How many people do you know with $100 million in the bank, that will ride around on the busses travelling the JR circuit? Not many, Carbonneau won't even do it. But that's why he's not coaching.

Just because Roy broke a door or two, doesn't proclude him from having success.
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
whats your argument about the correlation between being a successful NHL player and being a successful NHL coach? except obviously, more examples of players becoming coaches.
I never said a great player makes a great coach. I don't think great players make great coaches, I think they generally make horrible coaches.

But Patrick Roy wasn't a great player, he was an amazing goalie. There is a huge difference between what players see on the ice and what goalies see on the ice.

But I'm glad you counted your chickens before they hatched.


I don't think Roy's success as a coach / GM has anything to do with his ability as a player. I think its all about his mental desire to win. He will do anything to win, he will travel on ****** ass bus rides when he doesn't have to, he studies the game.

Thanks for pawning me though, I really enjoyed the entertainment. Glad you've been actually reading the thread lol.

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10-17-2011, 10:45 PM
  #133
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I like Roy. I don't doubt that as a coach he is good technically and great at motivation. He`s only coached at the JR level, so obviously he is going to get better with experience. My one worry about him would be his inability to control his emotions, especially in the media spotlight. Montreal is a strange beast in the sense that these factors have to be taken into account when selecting a coach because these issues can easily become detrimental to the team and its players... I understand he has had experience with the Montreal media first hand, but I still think that as a coach the pressures are different and the media might get the better of him. Also I'm assuming behind closed doors that Roy is an intense coach, hence his ability to motivate players, but sometimes this approach can wear off. Don't get me wrong, I bet he'll make a good coach, but these would be my concerns. I would definately be more interested if he has gotten NHL expience (even as an assistant) under his belt.

Personally I don't think Martin is going anywhere, but I would hope for a more experienced coach who has a decent track record. Unfortunately the prerequisite of being bilingual shortens the list considerably.
I don't think Martin is going anywhere either. I never once said itt that he'd make a good coach for the Habs. My comments towards him have been in the NHL in general because I don't think its in the cards given all of the factors.

I just like refuting people who make non factual arguements and bring up irrelevant and wrong stuff regarding Roy.

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10-17-2011, 11:00 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Players (as a whole) are motivated by winning, getting closer to the given goal.
Any given sunday speach is short term motivation, if that's the quality your looking that martin might be lacking.

Players feel respected, by being respected. Sometimes, people feel disrespected, because they have no respect themselves.

Those are trivial, and easy achievable goals. What's harder is to come with game plan, using numerous personal, analyzing tapes and tapes of hockey players/teams and coming to fruitful strategy, day in day out. Once you have that, and the right players, and your team is winning, motivation is there.
Regarding respect. It is earned. Respect is not given out. When you hold different players to different standards, you lose respect. That is simple common sense that applies to hockey and everyday life. Think about your interactions with your friends/co-workers/family etc. and you will understand what I just said.

Hockey players are no different from us in that they have a brain and are human beings. (Yes, they have a skill level that we will never have.) And as such, hockey players live with emotions. The ability or inability of a coach to motivate (get them to play at a high level throughout the game and throughout the season) highly paid professionals is the difference between a Cup and an average year.

Reality is that some coaches have the gift.....others do not.

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10-17-2011, 11:15 PM
  #135
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Where in this category does Claude Julien fit? How far in the past do you consider "past records" when it comes to playoff coaching? The only thing I hate more than misinformation, is stats that are tailor picked to support the argument.

"Statistics are like a drunk with a lamppost: used more for support than illumination." -Winston Churchill
I agree with you that statistics, like shots on goal, TOI, scoring chances etc sometimes do not tell the true story regarding performance.

Not much grey area in wins and losses though.

Is Julien an anomaly? A one hit wonder? Time will tell.

Is Julien a better coach than Martin? Absolutely. He believes in the concept of team toughness and showed last season that he is willing and able to change his "systems" in the playoffs. Martin would have never done what Julien did to go to a more pressing and more aggressive defense that led them to the Cup.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Okay great... what was Babcock's winning percentage before Detroit hired him, Burns before the cup in Jersey, Bowman before joining Montreal, ect.....
Normally, I dont suffer fools gladly, but I think that the following response is better than a deleted facepalm.

Babcock was 15-6 with a Cup win before going to Detroit. Bowman was 24-24 with 3 Cup Finals appearances.

All better than your beloved Martin (never made it to the Cup Finals, yet, eh?). Jacques thanks you for your undying support of his mediocrity.


Last edited by SouthernHab: 10-17-2011 at 11:30 PM.
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10-17-2011, 11:39 PM
  #136
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Is Julien an anomaly? A one hit wonder? Time will tell.

Is Julien a better coach than Martin? Absolutely. He believes in the concept of team toughness and showed last season that he is willing and able to change his "systems" in the playoffs. Martin would have never done what Julien did to go to a more pressing and more aggressive defense that led them to the Cup.
You mean that same aggressive defense that allowed the 2nd most shots in the regular season last year?? The same one that changed their defensive style in the POs to the point where they were allowing 2 more shots per game than in the regular season?..
The same defense that needed their goalie to have a Vezina season and Conn Smythe POs in order to win it all? The same defense that couldn't make Rask have a .500 record despite him having .918Sv%?

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about Julien and how superior he is, what did he change in the POs, as opposed to the regular season?..I am eagerly waiting for this response that you will surely not avoid to answer, right?

Not that I think Martin is better than Julien. I actually don't think Julien is that good of a coach. But hey, if you win a cup, I guess that makes you good (i.e Jean Perron).
I do not share the same philosophy as Martin, I find his style obviously boring, and some of his decisions are worthy of a few hair pulling, but to suggest that he's bad is a bit much. You don't coach more than 1300 NHL games if you're bad. I'm sorry, but you don't, it makes no sense. Meanwhile, you got coaches with a lot less experience, and a SC ring, but they can't find a job??? Doesn't make much sense, maybe Martin isn't that bad after all.

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10-17-2011, 11:50 PM
  #137
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Except you fail, I already addressed this 2 days ago





I never said a great player makes a great coach. I don't think great players make great coaches, I think they generally make horrible coaches.

But Patrick Roy wasn't a great player, he was an amazing goalie. There is a huge difference between what players see on the ice and what goalies see on the ice.

But I'm glad you counted your chickens before they hatched.


I don't think Roy's success as a coach / GM has anything to do with his ability as a player. I think its all about his mental desire to win. He will do anything to win, he will travel on ****** ass bus rides when he doesn't have to, he studies the game.

Thanks for pawning me though, I really enjoyed the entertainment. Glad you've been actually reading the thread lol.
diferent view. i like it. though, nowadays, with video replay, i dont think it matters much of how the coach viewed hockey 10 years ago from the net.

Likes to win, Alot. Great quality, im sure at that level of coaching, that quality is shared by most.

Sure he might make it, who knows, i dont. But those are not the main reasons he'll make it to the NHL.


Last edited by uiCk: 10-18-2011 at 12:07 AM.
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10-17-2011, 11:50 PM
  #138
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You mean that same aggressive defense that allowed the 2nd most shots in the regular season last year?? The same one that changed their defensive style in the POs to the point where they were allowing 2 more shots per game than in the regular season?..
The same defense that needed their goalie to have a Vezina season and Conn Smythe POs in order to win it all? The same defense that couldn't make Rask have a .500 record despite him having .918Sv%?

Tell me, since you seem to know so much about Julien and how superior he is, what did he change in the POs, as opposed to the regular season?..I am eagerly waiting for this response that you will surely not avoid to answer, right?

Not that I think Martin is better than Julien. I actually don't think Julien is that good of a coach. But hey, if you win a cup, I guess that makes you good (i.e Jean Perron).
I do not share the same philosophy as Martin, I find his style obviously boring, and some of his decisions are worthy of a few hair pulling, but to suggest that he's bad is a bit much. You don't coach more than 1300 NHL games if you're bad. I'm sorry, but you don't, it makes no sense. Meanwhile, you got coaches with a lot less experience, and a SC ring, but they can't find a job??? Doesn't make much sense, maybe Martin isn't that bad after all.
Kriss. I just referred to Julien as possibly being an anomaly last year. Meaning a blind hog finally finding an acorn. I never referred to him as "superior".........just "better" than Martin......and that's not saying much.

The B's played a similar system as JM on defense. A passive 1-4 or 1-2-2. In the playoffs, the Bruins started sending in 2 skaters a lot of the time on the forecheck instead of the single skater. And the Bruins became more aggressive and attacked the puck more often.

Simple but effective change by Julien.

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10-17-2011, 11:57 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I agree with you that statistics, like shots on goal, TOI, scoring chances etc sometimes do not tell the true story regarding performance.

Not much grey area in wins and losses though.

Is Julien an anomaly? A one hit wonder? Time will tell.

Is Julien a better coach than Martin? Absolutely. He believes in the concept of team toughness and showed last season that he is willing and able to change his "systems" in the playoffs. Martin would have never done what Julien did to go to a more pressing and more aggressive defense that led them to the Cup.



Normally, I dont suffer fools gladly, but I think that the following response is better than a deleted facepalm.

Babcock was 15-6 with a Cup win before going to Detroit. Bowman was 24-24 with 3 Cup Finals appearances.

All better than your beloved Martin (never made it to the Cup Finals, yet, eh?). Jacques thanks you for your undying support of his mediocrity.
Babcock had a cup win? I think you should re check those stats. Where was babcock the headcoach of a cup champion before detroit. Lets also note that he coached the ducks to a 76 point season the year after going to the finals. His first year in Detroit he lost in the first round to Edmonton. His career was not looking like anything special before winning the cup.


As for Bowman... a record of 24 - 24 is thoroughly mediocre.

What was burns? Oh you left that one out eh? One too many beatings from mike milbury coached boston teams in the early 90s for that stat to be good.

Or how about jacques demers, what was his record pre cup win?

Seems to me you are cherry picking your stats here, and even then you still can't get them right.


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10-18-2011, 12:05 AM
  #140
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Regarding respect. It is earned. Respect is not given out. When you hold different players to different standards, you lose respect. That is simple common sense that applies to hockey and everyday life. Think about your interactions with your friends/co-workers/family etc. and you will understand what I just said.

Hockey players are no different from us in that they have a brain and are human beings. (Yes, they have a skill level that we will never have.) And as such, hockey players live with emotions. The ability or inability of a coach to motivate (get them to play at a high level throughout the game and throughout the season) highly paid professionals is the difference between a Cup and an average year.

Reality is that some coaches have the gift.....others do not.
Respect goes both ways. Personally, i give respect to all, and its their to lose. My interactions are most likely VERY different then your interactions with people.

Yes i agree, that coach needs to motivate players. Are we just going to keep repeating this, and conclude that some people have the "gift" of motivating people, and others don't?

i think the days of general ambiguity are over; were no longer in the "He's from canada, he must have hockey in his genes" days. Modern science and education has resolved alot of questions we once had, and that includes ways to motivate people properly. I belive that has been done long time ago. So if your not familiar with motivation techniques, and your answer to everything is "He got it or he don't", then i would probably stop posting for a bit, and let people who know what they are talking about (lol not me, but im open to learn and discuss) and open enough to explore ways of how certain "unknowns" can actually be manipulated. Theres a reason why Boucher has a great understanding of his players, and its not because "he's got it", but because he has a degree in a field that studies behaviors given certain situation; and im sure he has learned much about how to motivate players and how to earn players respect.


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10-18-2011, 10:12 AM
  #141
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Babcock had a cup win? I think you should re check those stats. Where was babcock the headcoach of a cup champion before detroit. Lets also note that he coached the ducks to a 76 point season the year after going to the finals. His first year in Detroit he lost in the first round to Edmonton. His career was not looking like anything special before winning the cup.


As for Bowman... a record of 24 - 24 is thoroughly mediocre.

What was burns? Oh you left that one out eh? One too many beatings from mike milbury coached boston teams in the early 90s for that stat to be good.

Or how about jacques demers, what was his record pre cup win?

Seems to me you are cherry picking your stats here, and even then you still can't get them right.
My mistake regarding Babcock. He went to the Finals and lost in 2003.

How many Finals did Martin go to? Exactly. Enjoy the Martin homerism.

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10-18-2011, 10:15 AM
  #142
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My mistake regarding Babcock. He went to the Finals and lost in 2003.

How many Finals did Martin go to? Exactly. Enjoy the Martin homerism.
To steal a line from a movie

"You don't score, until you score"

or in this case "you don't win until you win"

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10-18-2011, 10:20 AM
  #143
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nowadays, with video replay, i dont think it matters much of how the coach viewed hockey 10 years ago from the net.
Video replay has nothing to do with the difference between how a player views a game and how a goalie views the game. 20+ years of watching the game from a distance will give a goalie an entirely different perspective of how things unfold compared to a player who is in the thick of the play and has to react constantly.

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Likes to win, Alot. Great quality, im sure at that level of coaching, that quality is shared by most.
There's a huge difference between liking to win and being determined to win. If you can't see the difference in dedication that some people make, then I'm probably wasting my time with you.

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Hockey players are no different from us in that they have a brain and are human beings. (Yes, they have a skill level that we will never have.) And as such, hockey players live with emotions. The ability or inability of a coach to motivate (get them to play at a high level throughout the game and throughout the season) highly paid professionals is the difference between a Cup and an average year.
I agree with you. I've seen it first hand. It wasn't until my final year of organized hockey in midget that I had a coach that made me realize the importance of the mental aspect of the game. It wasn't until the final week of the season but he found a way to motivate me and get me focussed 100% on the game.

Ever since then, I realized how much better you can play if you can put yourself "in the zone". Its not something easy to do.

But that being said, I think Martin is the best coach we've had probably since Demers. Yea Julien might be better now but he wasn't when he was here. Coaches grow as well. For the longest time, Burns was a great regular season coach but couldn't get it done in the playoffs.

You keep bashing Martin but you don't offer any solutions. Who would you prefer to be here that is actually available? imo Martin is the best available coach. Unfortunately, we've tried too many rookie coaches over the past 15 years to keep going down that road.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 10-18-2011 at 03:05 PM. Reason: merged
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10-18-2011, 11:03 AM
  #144
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Video replay has nothing to do with the difference between how a player views a game and how a goalie views the game. 20+ years of watching the game from a distance will give a goalie an entirely different perspective of how things unfold compared to a player who is in the thick of the play and has to react constantly.



There's a huge difference between liking to win and being determined to win. If you can't see the difference in dedication that some people make, then I'm probably wasting my time with you.
thats why i added ALOT to liking to win, in my sentence, to 'diferentiate' it from liking to win.. thats just semantics, so ill use 'determination' to win, so we don't go there anymore.
but question remains, when your a NHL coaching candidate, i would belive that most candidates share that determination, which was my point. no? (how can you not when your being considered a future NHL coach. Your not going to be a coach if you havent done some kind of winning up the ladder)
again, what made boucher exceptional for being a coach is not his 'determination' to win, nor his 'perspective' to win, it was actual quantified qualities, like his educational background and 'revolutionary' strategy he brings to the game. Those are real qualities nowadays. Passion doesn't cut it any more. Same with Julien, he's there, because he's great strategist, and applies rigorous work in analysing game by game, applying a set system etc.


Last edited by uiCk: 10-18-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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10-18-2011, 11:17 AM
  #145
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
thats why i added ALOT to liking to win, in my sentence, to 'diferentiate' it from liking to win.. thats just semantics, so ill use 'determination' to win, so we don't go there anymore.
but question remains, when your a NHL coaching candidate, i would belive that all candidates share that determination, which was my point. no? (how can you not when your being considered a future NHL coach. Your not going to be a coach if you havent done some kind of winning up the ladder)
I completely disagree. I don't think Gretzky was determined to win as a coach. What kind of work did he put in to do so? What kind of training did he get before he wanted to be an NHL coach?

I don't think all coaches are equal in their determination and dedication. Far from it.

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again, what made boucher exceptional for being a coach is not his 'determination' to win, nor his 'perspective' to win, it was actual quantified qualities, like his educational background and 'revolutionary' strategy he brings to the game. Those are real qualities nowadays. Passion doesn't cut it any more. Same with Julien, he's there, because he's great strategist, and applies rigorous work in analysing game by game, applying a set system etc.
I disagree, I think he showed far more dedication than most coaches, so much so that he actually went out and got his Masters to help him become a better coach, I call that dedication and passion to hockey. I'm sorry if you can't see that.

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10-18-2011, 11:28 AM
  #146
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I completely disagree. I don't think Gretzky was determined to win as a coach. What kind of work did he put in to do so? What kind of training did he get before he wanted to be an NHL coach?

I don't think all coaches are equal in their determination and dedication. Far from it.
i can see that, though im sure Gretzky has a "win" character trait, i don't think he was interested enough, or determined enough to become a 'real' coach,probably because he took the coaching job more or less to promote the Yotes, IMO

Change that line from "All candidates share that determination" to "Most candidates share that determination"
My bad.


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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I completely disagree. I don't think Gretzky was determined to win as a coach. What kind of work did he put in to do so? What kind of training did he get before he wanted to be an NHL coach?

I don't think all coaches are equal in their determination and dedication. Far from it.



I disagree, I think he showed far more dedication than most coaches, so much so that he actually went out and got his Masters to help him become a better coach, I call that dedication and passion to hockey. I'm sorry if you can't see that.
i'm not saying they dont have passion, im saying they have more then passion, tools, actual quantitative tools (education, strategic minds etc.) on top of their passion/determination. Thats what im saying is that at that level, determination is a given. and stop saying i can't see that, you can barely read my posts properly, your disagreeing on something you agree on.


Last edited by uiCk: 10-18-2011 at 11:44 AM.
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10-18-2011, 02:24 PM
  #147
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
I agree with you. I've seen it first hand. It wasn't until my final year of organized hockey in midget that I had a coach that made me realize the importance of the mental aspect of the game. It wasn't until the final week of the season but he found a way to motivate me and get me focussed 100% on the game.

Ever since then, I realized how much better you can play if you can put yourself "in the zone". Its not something easy to do.

But that being said, I think Martin is the best coach we've had probably since Demers. Yea Julien might be better now but he wasn't when he was here. Coaches grow as well. For the longest time, Burns was a great regular season coach but couldn't get it done in the playoffs.

You keep bashing Martin but you don't offer any solutions. Who would you prefer to be here that is actually available? imo Martin is the best available coach. Unfortunately, we've tried too many rookie coaches over the past 15 years to keep going down that road.
Hey macavoy. I posted earlier in this thread that I would love to see Arno del Curto brought to Montreal from Davos Switzerland. He is a proven winner with lots of experience coaching elite level players.

But, I am but a poster on a message board and will never see that because he is not French-Canadian.....which is sad and frustrating for this organization.

Keeping Martin here is simply settling for playoff exits. And that is unacceptable.

Do not give up on rookie coaches. Bylsma is an example of someone who can win and be a success. The problem here in Montreal is that we have chosen the wrong rookie coach.

I would love to see Patrick Roy behind the bench as well. His passion is something that has been sorely missing in Montreal for too long. Roy believes that its OK to fight for something that you desire.

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10-18-2011, 02:55 PM
  #148
donghabs98
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Hey macavoy. I posted earlier in this thread that I would love to see Arno del Curto brought to Montreal from Davos Switzerland. He is a proven winner with lots of experience coaching elite level players.

But, I am but a poster on a message board and will never see that because he is not French-Canadian.....which is sad and frustrating for this organization.

Keeping Martin here is simply settling for playoff exits. And that is unacceptable.

Do not give up on rookie coaches. Bylsma is an example of someone who can win and be a success. The problem here in Montreal is that we have chosen the wrong rookie coach.

I would love to see Patrick Roy behind the bench as well. His passion is something that has been sorely missing in Montreal for too long. Roy believes that its OK to fight for something that you desire.
can't agree with you more
many examples of that in the last 20 years

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10-19-2011, 08:31 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Keeping Martin here is simply settling for playoff exits. And that is unacceptable.

Do not give up on rookie coaches. Bylsma is an example of someone who can win and be a success. The problem here in Montreal is that we have chosen the wrong rookie coach.
Agreed as well. I'd like to add that we also lacked patience with some of those coaches, who are doing quite well in the NHL I must add.

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10-19-2011, 08:34 AM
  #150
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Agreed as well. I'd like to add that we also lacked patience with some of those coaches, who are doing quite well in the NHL I must add.
You should listen to your own words.

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