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How long does Gauthier have to win the Cup?

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Old
10-18-2011, 04:33 PM
  #101
Agnostic
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Originally Posted by LyleOdelein View Post
I'm not trying to trap you or anything, I'm just highly intrigued by how vastly your perspective differs from mine. Would you mind answering a couple questions just to clarify your stance on things?

Do you think the Blue Jackets have been just as successful over the last 10 years as the Flyers, Capitals, Sharks and Canucks?

Are the Wings an unsuccessful team now that they've lost two years in a row in the 2nd round?

Does making the Stanley Cup Final and losing count for anything?

Are the Hawks, Pens, Canes and Lightning still considered successful teams? Or more simply, at what point does a team's success stemming from a Cup win expire?

Does the best team in the league win the Stanley Cup every year, or do you believe that there are some varying factors (like player inconsistency, injuries, etc.) that contribute to a championship run?
I separate success and entertainment value. To me success is an outcome, a goal obtained. The Blue Jackets have not been entertaining to their fans as much as the other teams listed they have been equally unsuccessful.

Making the Stanley Cup Final accounts for something if the team is well managed and has a chance to leverage that in achieving success, but there are not relative grades of failure.

The Wings have achieved success and are well positioned to achieve more success. They have systems and decision makers that have a good track record.

I don't think success expires, the Habs have 24 cups that can't be taken away but the outlook for future is bleak.

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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
You didn't answer my question.

If the cup is the only measure of success, then did 29 teams and GMs last year including Holland and the Red Wings fail?

Or are you now conceding that other factors are used to determine a team success, thus contradicting your previous claim.

Also just an interesting note, of those three categories the habs were also at the top in defense and goaltending.
29 teams failed last year to win the Cup, which is the measure of success in hockey.

The Bruins were #1 in the league in goaltending, #2 in goals allowed, and #5 in goals scored, ahead of the habs in all categories so I am not sure what needs to be noted or what comparison you are making.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 10-18-2011 at 04:42 PM. Reason: merged
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Old
10-18-2011, 06:36 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
You didn't answer my question.

If the cup is the only measure of success, then did 29 teams and GMs last year including Holland and the Red Wings fail?

Or are you now conceding that other factors are used to determine a team success, thus contradicting your previous claim.

Also just an interesting note, of those three categories the habs were also at the top in defense and goaltending.
Yes. Montreal had a good season last year. Detroit had a good season last year. So did Vancouver. You can feel confident that a group of friends will sit around and talk about the good season that these teams had.

And if your goal is to have a good season, then everything is great (and it appears that a lot of the "Have not seen a Canadiens team win a Stanley Cup live or on TV" crowd are simply happy with that...having an average good season.

Only Boston had a successful season last year. That is reality.

Once the season ended, it was up to each individual GM to make changes to their team to move them from good to great and hopefully........Successful.

Ignorance of beer manufacturers notwithstanding, I ask again. Did Gauthier do enough to have the Canadiens in position to win a Cup?

I feel that he was woefully short in accomplishing that goal as we look at our D on the ice (Markov is gone, I know) and our still undersized forwards and pretty much insignificant 4th line.

Convince me that Cole is the Savior (already disputed by Martin). Convince me that Emelin will lead us to the Cup this year. Or Diaz. Or even Budaj. I want to hear convincing arguments that this team that Gauthier assembled is Cup ready.

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Old
10-18-2011, 06:47 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post

29 teams failed last year to win the Cup, which is the measure of success in hockey.
So if the cup is the measure of success to a team, then 29 teams/Gms failed. Should those GMs be fired? Should they be accused of not putting "winning" as the goal of their organization like you accuse the Canadiens? So Holland was as much of a failure as Gauthier was last year right? Should he be fired and issued the same accusations you are firing towards Gauthier? If not please explain why it is not in the case of other teams, but is so for Gauthier.

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The Bruins were #1 in the league in goaltending, #2 in goals allowed, and #5 in goals scored, ahead of the habs in all categories so I am not sure what needs to be noted or what comparison you are making.
I'm not making any comparison. You said success was only measured by winning a cup. However, then you brought up these three categories. I asked you what they meant(of course you didn't answer)...do these other factors(the three you mentioned, goaltending, offense and defense) measure how successful a team is? If so, does that not mean that you contradicting your earlier claim that success is measured only by cup status?

Moreover, if you do claim that these other factors are a measure of how successful a team is, then would you not say that the habs are rather successful in the grand scheme of things since they finished near the top(better than an overwhelming majority of the league) in two of those categories?

Now, again, if you say cup = success as the only measure, and you have said this many times, then you must concede that 29 teams failed last year. Gauthier failed just as much as Holland, Holmgren etc. Moreover what it means is that any whining about the current team is pre-mature since success is only measured by cup status, which we only find out in june. So until then, shouldn't you keep quite in your accusations until you find out what team is successful?

Your very narrow definition has some pretty big implications.

On a side note: Southern Hab, I have you on my ignore list for a reason. Please stop replying to my posts.


Last edited by Andy: 10-18-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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Old
10-18-2011, 06:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Once the season ended, it was up to each individual GM to make changes to their team to move them from good to great and hopefully........Successful.


I want to hear convincing arguments that this team that Gauthier assembled is Cup ready.
1. Do you think its possible to take last year's team and turn them into a succesful team in one off season given the talent is available?


2. Why do you want to hear lies? I don't think its possible to make that big of a transformation in one season. I think you have completely unrealistic expectations.

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10-18-2011, 07:29 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
1. Do you think its possible to take last year's team and turn them into a succesful team in one off season given the talent is available?


2. Why do you want to hear lies? I don't think its possible to make that big of a transformation in one season. I think you have completely unrealistic expectations.
Sure. That is the job of the GM, is it not? Lots of missing pieces preventing success were bypassed. And all we got was Cole.

And to your second point, would this team had been better if we kept Wiz? What about signing the UFA O'Brien to shore up our weak D?

This team did not need a complete overhaul. We did need more than what we got in the offseason.

PG has it made. He can convince Molson that we cannot win a Cup this year.........and still not go out and bring in new players or make trades.........and still keep his job without worry.

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Old
10-18-2011, 07:30 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I separate success and entertainment value. To me success is an outcome, a goal obtained. The Blue Jackets have not been entertaining to their fans as much as the other teams listed they have been equally unsuccessful.

Making the Stanley Cup Final accounts for something if the team is well managed and has a chance to leverage that in achieving success, but there are not relative grades of failure.

The Wings have achieved success and are well positioned to achieve more success. They have systems and decision makers that have a good track record.

I don't think success expires, the Habs have 24 cups that can't be taken away but the outlook for future is bleak.
Thanks for humoring me and taking the time to reply to those. I appreciate you expanding a bit on your reasoning.

I'm definitely much more of a relativist when I gauge a team's (or GM's) successes or failures. I certainly don't agree with all your arguments here, but I'm not going to debate that stuff right now, as you're entitled to your opinion.

One thing I will say is that I find the definition/understanding/expectation of "success" or "excellence" to be an interesting topic for us Habs fans. The team's history (both the good and the bad) has led to wildly differing perspectives that impact a wider range of issues than I may have initially thought.

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10-18-2011, 09:34 PM
  #107
Melvin Udall
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How long does Gauthier have to win the CUP?

Gauthier will never win a Cup - in Montreal or anywhere else....at least not a Stanley Cup (but...maybe a cup of Tim Horton's coffee).

Looking at his track record as a NHL GM, I have no idea why any one thinks Gauthier is capable of building a true contender!



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10-18-2011, 10:32 PM
  #108
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Good effort tonight but bad luck. We should win soon if this keeps up. Question is what are we really cabable of?

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10-18-2011, 10:35 PM
  #109
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Gauthier has set his own goal : Keep the Habs among the top third teams of the league (or among the best 10 teams) every year. Basically, he wants the Habs to be in the same category than Detroit, San Jose, Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Vancouver, etc.

The Habs are definitely not at this level yet. I say if they aren't there in 2-3 more years and if they're still a middle of the pack team, Gauthier will be in trouble.

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10-18-2011, 10:36 PM
  #110
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Can we panic yet or is it still too soon?

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10-18-2011, 10:44 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Yes. Montreal had a good season last year. Detroit had a good season last year. So did Vancouver. You can feel confident that a group of friends will sit around and talk about the good season that these teams had.

And if your goal is to have a good season, then everything is great (and it appears that a lot of the "Have not seen a Canadiens team win a Stanley Cup live or on TV" crowd are simply happy with that...having an average good season.

Only Boston had a successful season last year. That is reality.

Once the season ended, it was up to each individual GM to make changes to their team to move them from good to great and hopefully........Successful.

Ignorance of beer manufacturers notwithstanding, I ask again. Did Gauthier do enough to have the Canadiens in position to win a Cup?

I feel that he was woefully short in accomplishing that goal as we look at our D on the ice (Markov is gone, I know) and our still undersized forwards and pretty much insignificant 4th line.

Convince me that Cole is the Savior (already disputed by Martin). Convince me that Emelin will lead us to the Cup this year. Or Diaz. Or even Budaj. I want to hear convincing arguments that this team that Gauthier assembled is Cup ready.
No and no, but only in your children's books does a magician or a fairy godmother come along and turn the Habs into a champion overnight. It's impossible to reason with you if you maintain that cranky attitude. Stow it.

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10-18-2011, 10:46 PM
  #112
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Can we panic yet or is it still too soon?
Only if you think it is reasonable to jump off ship after 5 games.

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10-18-2011, 11:02 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by number72 View Post
Can we panic yet or is it still too soon?
We can do whatever we want. Thats whats great about being a fan. But the question here is how long does Pierre Gauthier have to win? Obviously there are many facets to this evaluation. How much we are winning now and will win in the near future, medium future and distant future, our current personnel, our prospects, our system or philosophy our coaching etc., all of which and more Pierre Gauthier signs off on. Ultimately whatever it is, he has only so many years to win a Cup. I'm just curious what people think and why because I'm not sure what to make of the current direction of our club.

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10-18-2011, 11:03 PM
  #114
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His time was up when we didn't win the pre-season cup. Fire this loser.

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10-18-2011, 11:23 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Gauthier has set his own goal : Keep the Habs among the top third teams of the league (or among the best 10 teams) every year. Basically, he wants the Habs to be in the same category than Detroit, San Jose, Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Vancouver, etc.

The Habs are definitely not at this level yet. I say if they aren't there in 2-3 more years and if they're still a middle of the pack team, Gauthier will be in trouble.
Very reasoned post, and I concur.

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10-18-2011, 11:33 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
No and no, but only in your children's books does a magician or a fairy godmother come along and turn the Habs into a champion overnight. It's impossible to reason with you if you maintain that cranky attitude. Stow it.
Look at what Chiarelli did in Boston last year before the trade deadline. Traded for Chris Kelly, Rich Peverly and Tomas Kaberle.

In the playoffs, Kelly had 13 points, Peverly had 12 points and Kaberle had 11 points.

Those players gave much needed offense to the Bruins and probably helped them win the Cup. And they did not blow up the team to do it.

The Habs are missing four key pieces. Two are big and tough DMen (instead of holding on to the past of Spacek and Gill and praying for a Markov healing miracle) and one is a gritty forward for the 3rd line and a big tough player who can fight and play (Rupp, Eager etc and so on) to fill out the 4th line.

None of those were addressed and Gauthier was sitting on a pile of cash even as the season was approaching.

But it is nice to see the loyalists rally around Captain Pierre as the ship takes on water.

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Old
10-18-2011, 11:34 PM
  #117
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Gauthier better win a cup next game or he is fired!

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10-18-2011, 11:36 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Look at what Chiarelli did in Boston last year before the trade deadline. Traded for Chris Kelly, Rich Peverly and Tomas Kaberle.

In the playoffs, Kelly had 13 points, Peverly had 12 points and Kaberle had 11 points.

Those players gave much needed offense to the Bruins and probably helped them win the Cup. And they did not blow up the team to do it.

The Habs are missing four key pieces. Two are big and tough DMen (instead of holding on to the past of Spacek and Gill and praying for a Markov healing miracle) and one is a gritty forward for the 3rd line and a big tough player who can fight and play (Rupp, Eager etc and so on) to fill out the 4th line.

None of those were addressed and Gauthier was sitting on a pile of cash even as the season was approaching.

But it is nice to see the loyalists rally around Captain Pierre as the ship takes on water.
If thae Habs did that you'd be the first to complain taht they are trading away picks and have no direction.

Trading a 2nd for Wisniewski last year was the best trade of the year.

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10-18-2011, 11:42 PM
  #119
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If thae Habs did that you'd be the first to complain taht they are trading away picks and have no direction.

Trading a 2nd for Wisniewski last year was the best trade of the year.
Trading is a risk/reward proposition. If you trade for Paul Mara, yeah, you are pretty much grasping for straws.

If a GM can keep two of the three that he traded for before the deadline, I would say that GM is pretty effective at what he is doing.

Losing Wisniewski is shaping up to be one of the worst transactions of this year.

But I argue for nothing. As another poster said previously, Gauthier will be here for at least 3 more years and probably get an extension. We have a lot of great hockey to look forward to in Montreal for sure.

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Old
10-18-2011, 11:45 PM
  #120
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If thae Habs did that you'd be the first to complain taht they are trading away picks and have no direction.

Trading a 2nd for Wisniewski last year was the best trade of the year.
Well the direction was the Cup so that's not that bad. Kelly was traded for a 2nd round pick, which ended up to be a 60th. And Kelly is STILL a Boston Bruins, not like the Moore traded. Then, Perverly was acquired for who again? Wheeler and Stuart? That trade wasn't good? And Peverley is still a key player for them, 2nd scorer for Boston so far. Only bad trade they did was Kaberle. Giving was they did was a really bad trade in itself. Still, they could try to convince them, and they wouldn't be THAT wrong, that they still won the Cup with him even if he didn't play a big part. And even if Colborne and Co ends up being great for Toronto. If the Habs would have done it, I would have criticized the Kaberle move....but I know I would have had the "Well, who cares....we won the Cup bro...".

Wiz helped us last year. Was a good trade for what it has given up. Was really good 'cause he got the jackpot thanks to the year he had with us....yet, it didn't mean going far in the playoffs and we couldn't keep him. In hindsight, we will say it was a good trade....but again, not able to benefit from it that much and for a long period of time.

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Old
10-18-2011, 11:51 PM
  #121
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Gauthier better win a cup next game or he is fired!


To add to fire gauthier thread number 1000, he probably has at least two more years after this one to be a real contender, meaning at least a conference final(s).

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10-19-2011, 01:34 AM
  #122
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Montreal has been a middle of the pack team for 17 years now save for one. The way things are going, seems like another 17

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10-19-2011, 03:46 PM
  #123
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I would say that giving Gauthier two years out of the playoffs and two more to make the new Dynasty appear on our horizon.The pieces are missing to become "Elite"two highend draft choices and a couple of years to mature with the core the Habs have.Pierre Gauthier can prove to be the best GM the Habs have had in three decades. Go Habs Go!

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10-19-2011, 04:25 PM
  #124
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As long as he can produce 8th place or better finishes, he's probably safe.

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10-19-2011, 07:29 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Lemons View Post
Montreal has been a middle of the pack team for 17 years now save for one. The way things are going, seems like another 17
This team was a bottom feeder in the earlt 2000.

I'm pretty sure Gauthier would like to make a trade but no one is dumb enough to take on Gomez and the Molsons won't bury his contract in the AHL because they love money and spending to the cap is already pissing them off.

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