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Old
10-19-2011, 11:21 AM
  #101
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah, you're right, they're not nearly as effective as the group that got completely blown out by the Bruin's in 4 straight.

Yeah, all this group of forwards did was take out two of the best teams in the East two years ago before finally running out of gas and then last year, all they did was take the eventual Cup champs further than anyone else. Without one of our top forwards in Max Pac and without our best D-man Markov.
We had absolutely no business getting out of the first round. Our 2nd string goalie had a career year and turned into Ken Dryden. Without his ridiculous play we're out of the playoffs in the first round.

Add to that, we shouldn't have even made the playoffs in the first place. We were an 88 point team.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Crazy how memory works. Some just remember what they want to eh. Forget that the previous group of forwards all but gave up and everyone, and I mean EVERYONE was calling for big changes.

Those big changes happened and now 2 1/2 years later, you wanna ***** about those big changes.
Yeah... all of a sudden after 2 1/2 years we realize that we got ***** in this trade...

Have you not looked at those old threads man? Do you not realize that most of us realized it was happening at the time. All we could do is bite down on something soft while it was happening and hang on to the bed post for dear life. It was the saddest experience we have had since we were doubled over on the Roy fiasco.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Changes that gave us a better team and more importantly a highly competitive one come April.
Highly competitive? Right... Last year we were the worst offensive team to make the postseason and our last two years we've needed Godlike goaltending to even get us in. We would've had this goaltending without those guys anyway and would've been far better off just coming back with what we had from before. We'd have more flexibility and better production from Koivu than we've had from Gomez. Or we could've you know... rebuild. But we won't even go there because even though we (inexplicably) decided to avoid this, we still could've just come back with what we had.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Forget that Cammy is among the top producers in the entire league in the playoffs over the last 2 years with 29 points in just 26 games or Gio tallying 20 points in 26 games or yes, even Gomez with 18 points in 26 games.
Oh...look at that, those are our team leaders over the last two years. Plek's has 16 points in 26 games btw.
Cammy is actually a legit first liner. Gomez has 2 goals in 26 games dude and completely sucked last year.

And the fact that you are sitting here talking about 'selective memory' is absolutely classic.

We'll see how well your memory works ten years from now when McD is a first pairing blueliner and Gomez is sitting in his retirement home in Florida counting his milliions. The trade was bad... now we have the unpleasant task of watching how bad this trade turns out for us over the next decade or two as McD shows us what he's capable of. He's already leading in the scoring race between him and Gomez this year and is averaging 25 minutes a night with the Rangers.

Yeah... good thing we got rid of him. But hey, we have an 88 point season and a Semi Conference finish to show for it so I'm sure the next decade of McD won't equal this right?

Please, pull your head out of the sand and face reality.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post

***** all you want, whine all you want but come April, there's not a single ***damned team that wants any part of us.
And these 3 "terrible as a core" players are a big part of that.
No. Those three aren't a big part of that. Our goaltending is what scares other clubs. Nobody in the league fears our forwards. Hell, we shouldn't have even been in the playoffs to begin with two years ago. Do you seriously think over in the other dressing room the guys are fretting over Scott Gomez? Really? Are you that crazy? Yeah, I"m sure they're worried that this could be the game where he pots his one goal over the course of a playoff run.

And the really sad thing is that we've had Stanley Cup calibre goaltending for a long time now but we don't have the kinds of players to support our netminders in getting us anywhere. If we were to somehow be able to support that goaltending with a good team we'd actually have a legit shot at the cup. Unfortunately, our goal was to fight for 8th place. So rather than actually try to ice a winner we replaced our mediocre core with... more mediocrity.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:24 AM
  #102
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The only positive from this deal now is "Thank God we didn't deal Subban"

Though, people around here probably want Subban gone.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:44 AM
  #103
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Saw McDonagh and NYR played last night against the Canucks. McDonagh looked solid and I believe he contributed 2 to 3 points. He definitely logged 20 plus minutes of ice time. Nothing fancy about his plays, but steady... On a side note, Higging has found a home in Vancouver...

Can we still reverse this Gomez trade???

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10-19-2011, 01:52 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We had absolutely no business getting out of the first round. Our 2nd string goalie had a career year and turned into Ken Dryden. Without his ridiculous play we're out of the playoffs in the first round.
Can I ask you a question, how good was Ken Dryden? Why isn't he more revered in this city? I was too young to really understand. However since a very young age, I've never been fond of him because I felt like he quit on his team and put being a lawyer ahead of being a team player. But I can admit, I'm biased.

But how good was he, was he really that good or did the awesome team and awesome defence that we had all those years boost his reputation somewhat?

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10-19-2011, 02:15 PM
  #105
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Can I ask you a question, how good was Ken Dryden? Why isn't he more revered in this city? I was too young to really understand. However since a very young age, I've never been fond of him because I felt like he quit on his team and put being a lawyer ahead of being a team player. But I can admit, I'm biased.

But how good was he, was he really that good or did the awesome team and awesome defence that we had all those years boost his reputation somewhat?
He was darn good... But even Bunny Larocque was having good stats with Robinson-Savard and Lapointe in front of him.

Dryden was awful in International games against the Russians.

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Old
10-19-2011, 02:25 PM
  #106
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Page 9 is hilarious when everyone finds out that Mcdonagh was included

Page 9? 50 posts per page brah, you're a mod ffs

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10-19-2011, 02:34 PM
  #107
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Page 9? 50 posts per page brah, you're a mod ffs
Yeah I'm always surprised when I notice people don't set it to 50 heh

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10-19-2011, 02:46 PM
  #108
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Yeah I'm always surprised when I notice people don't set it to 50 heh
Well.. how? lol

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10-19-2011, 02:52 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by KadrüH View Post
Well.. how? lol
http://hfboards.com/profile.php?do=editoptions

click that

or you can go to the top left of your screen, and click "user CP", then on the left, click "edit options"

but that link should work, and you can set the posts per page to 50, some other neat settings you can customize there

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Old
10-19-2011, 02:55 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
http://hfboards.com/profile.php?do=editoptions

click that

or you can go to the top left of your screen, and click "user CP", then on the left, click "edit options"

but that link should work, and you can set the posts per page to 50, some other neat settings you can customize there
Thank you good sir.

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Old
10-19-2011, 03:09 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
The only positive from this deal now is "Thank God we didn't deal Subban"

Though, people around here probably want Subban gone.
If we had, you can be sure that people would be here saying we had 'no choice' but to do it.

Heck, who knows... McD might turn out to be the better blueliner.
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Can I ask you a question, how good was Ken Dryden? Why isn't he more revered in this city? I was too young to really understand. However since a very young age, I've never been fond of him because I felt like he quit on his team and put being a lawyer ahead of being a team player. But I can admit, I'm biased.

But how good was he, was he really that good or did the awesome team and awesome defence that we had all those years boost his reputation somewhat?
I'm not old enough to truly appreciate Dryden. But I agree, he should be more revered. I've always wanted to see the '71 games where he single handedly won us the cup over powerhouse clubs but I can't find them anywhere.

I think the reason he doesn't get enough credit is that he backstopped powerhouse teams later on in the 70s. People just assume that we could've had an open net and won those games... but his statistics are absolutely sick. He has almost as many career shutouts as losses.

I think it's also telling that when he took his hiatus we didn't win the cup. And the core that we had in the 70s suddenly wasn't good enough to win without him in the 80s.

Another reason he gets some flack is that he was not great against the Russians in '72. People forget though that their style of play was completely foreign to our players and he was left out to dry on multiple occasions. Unfortunately, he had a bad series (probably his only one ever) and people point to his problems against the Russians as a cut against him.

I agree, he deserves more credit and I think you could make a legitimate argument that he is the greatest goalie of all-time. Unfortunately though, I didn't really get to see enough of him because I was too young.

I remember Steve Penny though...


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-19-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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Old
10-19-2011, 05:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We had absolutely no business getting out of the first round. Our 2nd string goalie had a career year and turned into Ken Dryden. Without his ridiculous play we're out of the playoffs in the first round.

Add to that, we shouldn't have even made the playoffs in the first place. We were an 88 point team.

Yeah... all of a sudden after 2 1/2 years we realize that we got ***** in this trade...

Have you not looked at those old threads man? Do you not realize that most of us realized it was happening at the time. All we could do is bite down on something soft while it was happening and hang on to the bed post for dear life. It was the saddest experience we have had since we were doubled over on the Roy fiasco.

Highly competitive? Right... Last year we were the worst offensive team to make the postseason and our last two years we've needed Godlike goaltending to even get us in. We would've had this goaltending without those guys anyway and would've been far better off just coming back with what we had from before. We'd have more flexibility and better production from Koivu than we've had from Gomez. Or we could've you know... rebuild. But we won't even go there because even though we (inexplicably) decided to avoid this, we still could've just come back with what we had.

Cammy is actually a legit first liner. Gomez has 2 goals in 26 games dude and completely sucked last year.

And the fact that you are sitting here talking about 'selective memory' is absolutely classic.

We'll see how well your memory works ten years from now when McD is a first pairing blueliner and Gomez is sitting in his retirement home in Florida counting his milliions. The trade was bad... now we have the unpleasant task of watching how bad this trade turns out for us over the next decade or two as McD shows us what he's capable of. He's already leading in the scoring race between him and Gomez this year and is averaging 25 minutes a night with the Rangers.

Yeah... good thing we got rid of him. But hey, we have an 88 point season and a Semi Conference finish to show for it so I'm sure the next decade of McD won't equal this right?

Please, pull your head out of the sand and face reality.

No. Those three aren't a big part of that. Our goaltending is what scares other clubs. Nobody in the league fears our forwards. Hell, we shouldn't have even been in the playoffs to begin with two years ago. Do you seriously think over in the other dressing room the guys are fretting over Scott Gomez? Really? Are you that crazy? Yeah, I"m sure they're worried that this could be the game where he pots his one goal over the course of a playoff run.

And the really sad thing is that we've had Stanley Cup calibre goaltending for a long time now but we don't have the kinds of players to support our netminders in getting us anywhere. If we were to somehow be able to support that goaltending with a good team we'd actually have a legit shot at the cup. Unfortunately, our goal was to fight for 8th place. So rather than actually try to ice a winner we replaced our mediocre core with... more mediocrity.
Again, all I read is *****ing and whining.
First off, no one has shown anything credible in dismissing THE FACT that Cammy SAID the Gomez trade was a BIG FACTOR in his signing.
So the reality is if we didn't trade for Gomez, there's more than a slight chance we wouldn't have Cammy and you already said you don't like Gio sooooo...aside from the keeping of Koivu for another year or two, what option is or was out there that would be better in your mind.

By all means Mr. All-star GM, tell us. Show me what our team would look like and if we would of even been in the playoff's the last two years heh.
Should of just held on to Kovalev, Lang and Tanguay I guess

Like I said, ***** all you want but I would like to know how we end up with a better team.

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10-19-2011, 05:35 PM
  #113
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Im amazed by some people who cant see how awful that trade was and how far they go to make it look better. I mean, anybody with a brain knew the trade sucked back in the day, I thought with time, the "optimist" would fall back on earth... Guess not..surprising how far some people go to defend the habs brass and blind themselves to their ****** moves.Making it sound like gomez was the only option...lol. When you see players like chris stewart traded away for bluechip dman just a few years later, you gotta wonder...

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10-19-2011, 07:13 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by HF-Addict View Post
Im amazed by some people who cant see how awful that trade was and how far they go to make it look better. I mean, anybody with a brain knew the trade sucked back in the day, I thought with time, the "optimist" would fall back on earth... Guess not..surprising how far some people go to defend the habs brass and blind themselves to their ****** moves.Making it sound like gomez was the only option...lol. When you see players like chris stewart traded away for bluechip dman just a few years later, you gotta wonder...
I think you're misconstruing what's being said.
The trade on its own is not being defended.
The move itself, at the time it was made and the domino's it started is what's being argued.

Lets go through this again.

It's April 2009 and the Habs have just been absolutely destroyed 17-6 in a 4 game sweep by the Boston Bruins.
The same team that rocketed out to a 27-13-6 start and then completely collapsed after the All-star break going 14-17-5 barely making the playoff's.

People were calling for change. Not some people either, EVERYONE was calling for it.

Change is what we got and if someone wants to BS around that they weren't calling for or agreeing that we didn't need a major shakeup I will have to go ahead and ask for a link to a post of theirs at the time to prove it.

Hey, I agree with the people that say we should of stuck with Koivu and just cleaned out the rest but there were issues there as well and I guarantee one thing....
If Koivu had gotten what he wanted, 3+ years in the 5 mill range, the exact same people that are whining about Gomez would be whining about Koivu and his deal instead.

I've been following this team since I was 6 years old, almost 35 years now and know how most Habs fans do things and by far the biggest is to b*tch and are the absolute kings of hindsight.

Don't get me wrong either, I would rather be part of a fan base that does b*tch and doesn't take whatever BS its shoveled like a certain White and Blue coloured fan base does but still....sometimes, it goes a little far.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-19-2011 at 07:21 PM.
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Old
10-19-2011, 08:20 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Again, all I read is *****ing and whining.
That's because your monitor is set at 'Funhouse Mirror Status' instead of 'Reality Status.' You need to make some adjustments to it. Once you do, you'll see that this isn't whining and that this was a terrible move for us.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
First off, no one has shown anything credible in dismissing THE FACT that Cammy SAID the Gomez trade was a BIG FACTOR in his signing.
Who cares if he did?

And other people have asked you for a link that you seem unable or unwiling to provide.
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So the reality is if we didn't trade for Gomez, there's more than a slight chance we wouldn't have Cammy and you already said you don't like Gio sooooo...aside from the keeping of Koivu for another year or two, what option is or was out there that would be better in your mind.
So we had no choice the but to go and trade for him? Okay... I guess if Sather had asked for McD and Subban we had no choice too right? Heck, if he'd asked for McD, Subban and Price then we'd have had no choice there either?

Good thing Sather was gullible enough to only ask for one of our top prospects. He should've asked for three in return for his overpaid, soft, under performing center that he couldn't wait to get rid of.

Whew... what a relief.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
By all means Mr. All-star GM, tell us. Show me what our team would look like and if we would of even been in the playoff's the last two years heh.
Should of just held on to Kovalev, Lang and Tanguay I guess
Sure. Why not? They're mediocre too and making about half the cash. We still probably could've cobbled together another 88 point season with them and Koivu has actually been better than Gomez has so why not?

Or we could've told Sather that we'd take his overpriced, soft, underperforming center for a 5th round pick and kept McD. We still would've got him... but whatever.
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Like I said, ***** all you want but I would like to know how we end up with a better team.
Well, keeping McD would've been a good start... Lord knows we'd be better of with him now than we are with Gomez.
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Originally Posted by HF-Addict View Post
Im amazed by some people who cant see how awful that trade was and how far they go to make it look better. I mean, anybody with a brain knew the trade sucked back in the day, I thought with time, the "optimist" would fall back on earth... Guess not..surprising how far some people go to defend the habs brass and blind themselves to their ****** moves.Making it sound like gomez was the only option...lol. When you see players like chris stewart traded away for bluechip dman just a few years later, you gotta wonder...
People just see what they want to see. We can't have made a mistake here because... well, we just can't.

It's Funhouse Mirror Syndrome.

I remember after the Roy trade people made the same kinds of arguments that Rhiessan71 has made. We had no choice etc...

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10-19-2011, 09:07 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I remember Steve Penny though...
Yea he was my first favourite goalie. Talk about one hit wonder.

I remember being a big Pelle Lindburg fan as well, I remember watching him in the playoffs that year, then hearing about him crashing his porche. That was probably the first time I learnt about drunk driving. I was sad.

Didn't he make a save batting the puck with his stick on his blocker side or was that another goalie? It was a pretty big save and I remember I actually copied in when I was a teenager, it took a long time to find the right opportunity for a shot on the blocker side.

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10-19-2011, 09:41 PM
  #117
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Yea he was my first favourite goalie. Talk about one hit wonder.

I remember being a big Pelle Lindburg fan as well, I remember watching him in the playoffs that year, then hearing about him crashing his porche. That was probably the first time I learnt about drunk driving. I was sad.

Didn't he make a save batting the puck with his stick on his blocker side or was that another goalie? It was a pretty big save and I remember I actually copied in when I was a teenager, it took a long time to find the right opportunity for a shot on the blocker side.
Man Pelle Lindburgh... I forgot all about him. Talk about 'what if'.

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10-19-2011, 10:23 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
That's because your monitor is set at 'Funhouse Mirror Status' instead of 'Reality Status.' You need to make some adjustments to it. Once you do, you'll see that this isn't whining and that this was a terrible move for us.
Obviously I'm not the one with reality issues. You just simply hate Gomez and are unwilling to see the trees for the leaves.


Quote:
Who cares if he did?

And other people have asked you for a link that you seem unable or unwiling to provide.
Wait what??? I provided the link a couple of pages back and even quoted from it in HUGE bolded letters...not sure how you missed that.
Oh wait...I guess it's not just a case of selective memory, seems selective vision is also an issue for you.
Remember AND see only what you want to eh


Quote:
So we had no choice the but to go and trade for him? Okay... I guess if Sather had asked for McD and Subban we had no choice too right? Heck, if he'd asked for McD, Subban and Price then we'd have had no choice there either?

Good thing Sather was gullible enough to only ask for one of our top prospects. He should've asked for three in return for his overpaid, soft, under performing center that he couldn't wait to get rid of.

Whew... what a relief.
Ahh the ole, it could of happened argument. Good one, just provide some evidence that Sather could of asked for more or that Gainey would of been willing to give up more


Quote:
Sure. Why not? They're mediocre too and making about half the cash. We still probably could've cobbled together another 88 point season with them and Koivu has actually been better than Gomez has so why not?

Or we could've told Sather that we'd take his overpriced, soft, underperforming center for a 5th round pick and kept McD. We still would've got him... but whatever.
Yeah for sure and know that Sather would of accepted this how exactly heh
...and are you seriously trying to say that Kovalev and Tanguay are better or even close to being on par with Cammy and Gio...

Quote:
Well, keeping McD would've been a good start... Lord knows we'd be better of with him now than we are with Gomez.
Whatever dude, I answered this in the part of my post you chose not to quote and respond to and I know one thing right now, YOU would definitely be one of the folks b*tching about Koivu's contract right now. Foooor suuure!

Quote:
People just see what they want to see. We can't have made a mistake here because... well, we just can't.

It's Funhouse Mirror Syndrome.
I think you have already proven who's the person with the blinders on in this very post heh. (See underlined part of this post)
Look, it's not the first mistake and won't be the last and like I said (again in the part you chose not to quote) I don't think anyone disagrees that getting Gomez on his own was a mistake but the domino's started with his trade definitely brings the severity of that mistake down.
Either way, keeping Koivu maybe doesn't get us Cammy and Gio, so we go with Kovalev and Tanguay, possibly even Lnag for another year or two.
I can't possibly see how we are a better team going that route, even with McD still in the fold.


Quote:
I remember after the Roy trade people made the same kinds of arguments that Rhiessan71 has made. We had no choice etc...
Again, I think you're confusing the had no choice in that case. Most people were not very happy with what we got for Roy and Keane.
What we all agreed on was that WE HAD NO CHOICE in trading him.
Not that we had to trade him the AV's for crap.

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10-19-2011, 11:33 PM
  #119
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Obviously I'm not the one with reality issues. You just simply hate Gomez and are unwilling to see the trees for the leaves.
I don't hate Gomez at all.

I hated the trade though. That tends to happen when your club does something stupid like trade away a great prospect to a guy who could've been had for a bag of marbles.

It would be nice if Gomez could play a little better though and score maybe 50+ points for us. That would make things a little easier to take.
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Wait what??? I provided the link a couple of pages back and even quoted from it in HUGE bolded letters...not sure how you missed that.
Oh wait...I guess it's not just a case of selective memory, seems selective vision is also an issue for you.
Remember AND see only what you want to eh
Okay, thanks just read it... Where is the part where he says he turned down more money elsewhere? Was there another link that you posted? If I missed it let me know, I didn't bother looking for more than the one you posted on page 2.

In that article I see him BSing the writer about how Gomez made his interest perk up but nowhere do I see him talk about turning down bigger cash somewhere else. Does he actually say this somewhere? If so, then at least you can cling to this. If not, then you've shown us nothing. Either way though, it doesn't matter.
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Ahh the ole, it could of happened argument. Good one, just provide some evidence that Sather could of asked for more or that Gainey would of been willing to give up more
Did you really not get the joke there and miss the point? Go re-read it man. I'm not asking you to prove he could've asked for more. I'm saying it's a ridiculous position to say that we had no choice.

As for Sather taking less for Gomez... I guess common sense doesn't qualify? And even if he would've taken less it doesn't matter, we shouldn't have gone after him at all.

I will ask you again.. would we still have had no choice but to say yes if they asked for McD and Subban? To what limit does your ridiculous notion of 'having to make this trade' apply?
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Yeah for sure and know that Sather would of accepted this how exactly heh
I'm saying I don't care if he would've accepted it or not. I'm saying we should've told him to go jump in the lake. We shouldn't have gone after Gomez in the first place but if we were going to be stupid enough to take on his contract we should've told him that it was a 5th rounder or we walk. And if he said no... we should've walked. Heck, we should've walked if he said yes. We shouldn't have taken him to begin with much less traded away McD and Higgins for him.
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...and are you seriously trying to say that Kovalev and Tanguay are better or even close to being on par with Cammy and Gio...
Not at all. I'm saying it doesn't matter. I'm saying those guys probably would've been good enough for an 8th place finish anyway. Cammy was hurt most of the year anyway and it's not like other of the other two lit up the scoreboard.

We set the bar extremely low by going after who we did. I'm saying that we were outplayed almost every night when we got our 88 point season and had to rely on Godlike goaltending to get us anywhere. I'm saying that we would've been better off not tying ourselves to a core that hasn't and will not win us a cup. I'm saying we could've re-signed the guys we had and actually traded them away to at least get a return on them instead of letting them bolt for absolutely no return.

Oh, and I'm also saying that the Gomez trade was just about the dumbest move that has happened in the NHL since the lockout.
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Whatever dude, I answered this in the part of my post you chose not to quote and respond to and I know one thing right now, YOU would definitely be one of the folks b*tching about Koivu's contract right now. Foooor suuure!
Sure. I think signing Koivu and continuing with him for another two years would be stupid too. But it's a lot less stupid than what we went out and did. And the fact that Koivu has actually outproduced Gomez with double the goals and almost identical point totals just reinforces this belief.

You asked me for alternatives and I gave you many that were better. Keeping Koivu was the most obvious as he was already with us and it completely undermines what you're saying about us HAVING to deal for Gomez. That doesn't mean I would've kept Koivu for two years and hoped for a cup. It's just the lesser of two evils.

What we should've done is traded those guys away for younger players and prospects so that we could win something down the road. Instead, we let them leave for nothing and tied ourselves to guys who can't win and have no hope of leading us anywhere. We let mediocre guys go only to bring in more mediocre guys who can't win.

I know you're thrilled with our semi-conference final finish and first round knockout to the Bruins, but I'd rather we'd have taken a different route.

Even if we just kept that old core though, at least we'd still have McD to build around for the future. So yeah, if I was forced to choose I'd have preferred that we'd stayed with that old core. In the long run we'd be better off.
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I think you have already proven who's the person with the blinders on in this very post heh.
What' up with the hehs? If you've got a sore throat, get a coughdrop.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Look, it's not the first mistake and won't be the last and like I said (again in the part you chose not to quote) I don't think anyone disagrees that getting Gomez on his own was a mistake but the domino's started with his trade definitely brings the severity of that mistake down.
So by your reasoning one terrible trade led to two other great free agent signings? And you think we had no choice but to do this? And you think this was a good thing?

Dude... really?

Your pathetic attempt to link the signings of two other guys to this disaster in order to minimize the damage its done to us is laughable.
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Either way, keeping Koivu maybe doesn't get us Cammy and Gio, so we go with Kovalev and Tanguay, possibly even Lnag for another year or two.
I can't possibly see how we are a better team going that route, even with McD still in the fold.
Why are you only looking at the present? Why are you unable to consider how this hurts us long term? Maybe we wouldn't have been as good in the present but who cares? In either case we aren't good enough to win a cup now anyway. The marginal improvements (if any) that we've gotten from this doesn't come close to matching our long term loss. Moreover, these moves cemented us with a mediocre core of forwards who won't win anything and we now have to wait for their contracts to expire or be moved in order to actually try to win something.

McD would have helped down the road when we might actually have a chance at being good enough. We've likely missed out on more than decade of hockey from one of the best prospects in our system. This guy would've been amazing with Subban, Price and Maxpac in a few years. Do you really not understand this?
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Again, I think you're confusing the had no choice in that case. Most people were not very happy with what we got for Roy and Keane.
What we all agreed on was that WE HAD NO CHOICE in trading him.
Not that we had to trade him the AV's for crap.
In the Roy case we ACTUALLY didn't have a choice but to trade him. But we sure as heck didn't need to trade him for a deck of cards. Still, people like you justified it by saying we HAD to make that trade. We didn't.

Again, why in the world did we HAVE to go trade for Gomez? Why did we HAVE to give away McD to get him? We didn't. But the apologists feel the need to somehow justify this. So they point to 8th place finishes and try to tie the trade to other signings in order to make themselves feel better about being ripped off.

That's what you're doing here. Trying to come up with reasons for an awful deal and I'm sorry but it's not working. And this will likely become more apparent over time when our 8th place finishes are long gone and McD develops into a good defenseman.

It was a bad deal to begin with. Now we've got the next decade or so to find out just how bad it was.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 10-19-2011 at 11:41 PM.
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10-20-2011, 12:08 AM
  #120
MasterDecoy
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Im amazed by some people who cant see how awful that trade was and how far they go to make it look better. I mean, anybody with a brain knew the trade sucked back in the day, I thought with time, the "optimist" would fall back on earth... Guess not..surprising how far some people go to defend the habs brass and blind themselves to their ****** moves. Making it sound like gomez was the only option...lol. When you see players like chris stewart traded away for bluechip dman just a few years later, you gotta wonder...
so, ignoring facts, selective memory AND the "i don't know how to use a clock" syndrome all in one sentence

- "Making it sound like gomez was the only option..."
he was. instead of parroting what everybody says, prove Rhiessan71 wrong. he WAS the only available option. keeping koivu was NOT an option.

-"When you see players like chris stewart traded away for bluechip dman just a few years later, you gotta wonder..."
so you want us to trade our only blue-chip dman, subban? or you want to trade our only blue-chip forward maybe, our version of stewart in pacioretty? no? then why are you *****ing? and i fail to see how a trade that happened not six months ago has any relevance to a trade done 3 years ago.

and in the middle of all that you conveniently omit that at the time the team had a surplus of d prospects and no ****ing centers anywhere in sight.

yeah gomez sucks and it wasn't a good trade and im not gonna defend that but fact is he WAS our only viable option and i could reasonably put forward the argument that if we didn't have mister 7 million we wouldn't have made the playoff the last two years - certainly not when with a better gomez we barely squeaked by at 7 seed in 09-10.

instead of parroting the same talking points, why don't you tell us instead who we could have acquired for our first line center. not NOW, three years ago.

you guys are like fox news anchors...

edit: oh and gomez wasn't hired to score goals so when you use the tired "he hasn't scored since bla bla bla" argument, it's like saying "this apple is bad, it doesn't taste like an orange!!"


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10-20-2011, 02:05 AM
  #121
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so, ignoring facts, selective memory AND the "i don't know how to use a clock" syndrome all in one sentence

- "Making it sound like gomez was the only option..."
he was. instead of parroting what everybody says, prove Rhiessan71 wrong. he WAS the only available option. keeping koivu was NOT an option.

-"When you see players like chris stewart traded away for bluechip dman just a few years later, you gotta wonder..."
so you want us to trade our only blue-chip dman, subban? or you want to trade our only blue-chip forward maybe, our version of stewart in pacioretty? no? then why are you *****ing? and i fail to see how a trade that happened not six months ago has any relevance to a trade done 3 years ago.

and in the middle of all that you conveniently omit that at the time the team had a surplus of d prospects and no ****ing centers anywhere in sight.

yeah gomez sucks and it wasn't a good trade and im not gonna defend that but fact is he WAS our only viable option and i could reasonably put forward the argument that if we didn't have mister 7 million we wouldn't have made the playoff the last two years - certainly not when with a better gomez we barely squeaked by at 7 seed in 09-10.

instead of parroting the same talking points, why don't you tell us instead who we could have acquired for our first line center. not NOW, three years ago.

you guys are like fox news anchors...

edit: oh and gomez wasn't hired to score goals so when you use the tired "he hasn't scored since bla bla bla" argument, it's like saying "this apple is bad, it doesn't taste like an orange!!"
wow... fox news anchor reference... sad thing is that your spinning of facts is the closest thing to bush league journalism i've seen in this thread, complete with the "shouting" (or BOLDING) to make up for lack of substance.

Koivu was not an option? Funny, he made it very clear in interviews later on that the team made no attempt to re-sign him and that he never really thought about leaving montreal until he realized Gainey wasn't interested, at which point he accepted that it was time to move on (which in his case meant putting up better ppg, goals, +/-. and playoff ppg than Gomez, whom we presumably needed for lack of "better" option... except Koivu, who we had, who wanted to stay, who wouldn't have cost us any assets to keep, who would have cost 1/2 of the cap hit... it's almost funny how stupid the argument is that we "didn't have another option", almost...)

making stuff up to reinforce an otherwise non-sensical point... check.

Mcdo was a blue chip prospect 3 years ago, was still a blue chip prospect last year, and is this year playing like a young dman well on his way to being a top pairing dman... if you can't see the relevance to the comments about the Stewart trade, your either purposely pretending to be dense, or are so blinded by your own infallible judgment as to be beyond sensible discussion.

mistaking subjective opinion for objective fact.... check

yup, you'd make a good addition to Fox news, or Sun media...


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10-20-2011, 02:16 AM
  #122
Rhiessan71
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wow... fox news anchor reference... sad thing is that your spinning of facts is the closest thing to bush league journalism i've seen in this thread, complete with the "shouting" (or BOLDING) to make up for lack of substance.

Koivu was not an option? Funny, he made it very clear in interviews later on that the team made no attempt to re-sign him and that he thought he never really thought about leaving montreal.
Ohhhhhh, I see how it is. When Koivu is talking publicly about the team signing or not signing him, he's definitely telling the honest to goodness truth but when Cammy does it, he's just making **** up. Gotcha


I don't know what else to say really. I'm not even saying the Gomez trade was a good one, all I'm saying is that all things considered, it's not nearly as bad as some "hindsighters" are making it out to be.
I mean seriously, there are some people trying to put this trade on the same level as the Roy debacle and it's truly, not even close.
Chicken Little, eat your heart out!

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10-20-2011, 02:30 AM
  #123
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Ohhhhhh, I see how it is. When Koivu is talking publicly about the team signing or not signing him, he's definitely telling the honest to goodness truth but when Cammy does it, he's just making **** up. Gotcha


I don't know what else to say really. I'm not even saying the Gomez trade was a good one, all I'm saying is that all things considered, it's not nearly as bad as some "hindsighters" are making it out to be.
I mean seriously, there are some people trying to put this trade on the same level as the Roy debacle and it's truly, not even close.
Chicken Little, eat your heart out!
i guess it's nice to see you backtracking and trying to find some way to not seem completely out to lunch...
kudos to you for the effort.

Gomez trade was the worst by this franchise since the Roy trade, and while that one still takes the cake, at least Houle does get a small degree of understanding since he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Unlike Gomez, there was reasonable hope that Thibault/Rucinsky/Kovalenko would emmerge into good players for us, and frankly, had the organization been spending as much as the other top spenders in the league at that time, instead of cutting salary, I think it's fair to postulate that the Roy trade wouldn't look nearly as bad as it ended up looking. Thibault would have had a much better experience with us if we weren't trading away talent to save money for the duration of his tenure in mOntreal... Rucinsky would have looked much better as a 2nd/3rd liner than he did thrust into a 1st line winger role, and kovalenko... well he still would have been fat.

the major difference is that Gainey's decision was made entirely on his own, with absolutely no pressure to do so. in fact, he had the unique opportunity of being able to spend a boatload of money to re-build his roster, given the 11 roster spots he had open. The gomez trade, in that light, was very much a worse decision than the Roy trade.

that's where hindsight is useful... if we look at both situations, why they happened and what circumstances the GM was operating under, I think it's actually quite clear that gainey's decision was much worse than Houle's, even though the negative impact of that decision was ultimately less.


how can anyone really try to argue that the GOmez trade "wasn't that bad in hindsight" at this point anyhow? with each passing day, and each passing moment where Gomez flutters in mediocrity while Higgins re-asserts himself as a valuable top-9 fwd and Mcdo establishes himself as a bright young defensive stud, the trade gets worse, and worse and worse as far as hindsight is concerned.

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10-20-2011, 02:35 AM
  #124
MasterDecoy
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wow... fox news anchor reference... sad thing is that your spinning of facts is the closest thing to bush league journalism i've seen in this thread, complete with the "shouting" (or BOLDING) to make up for lack of substance.

Koivu was not an option? Funny, he made it very clear in interviews later on that the team made no attempt to re-sign him and that he never really thought about leaving montreal until he realized Gainey wasn't interested, at which point he accepted that it was time to move on (which in his case meant putting up better ppg, goals, +/-. and playoff ppg than Gomez, whom we presumably needed for lack of "better" option... except Koivu, who we had, who wanted to stay, who wouldn't have cost us any assets to keep, who would have cost 1/2 of the cap hit... it's almost funny how stupid the argument is that we "didn't have another option", almost...)

making stuff up to reinforce an otherwise non-sensical point... check.

Mcdo was a blue chip prospect 3 years ago, was still a blue chip prospect last year, and is this year playing like a young dman well on his way to being a top pairing dman... if you can't see the relevance to the comments about the Stewart trade, your either purposely pretending to be dense, or are so blinded by your own infallible judgment as to be beyond sensible discussion.

mistaking subjective opinion for objective fact.... check

yup, you'd make a good addition to Fox news, or Sun media...

i said koivu wasn't an option because he was part of the problem. you don't change an entire roster but keep the captain. he 'had' to go. the mistake was not trading him. not, not keeping him. that's not 'making stuff up'. if gainey was serious about changing the atmosphere, i had to be let go.

for the second part, if your saying we could have gotten better return for mcdo then that's exactly what i said: selective memory. the trade stewart trade happened this year, the gomez trade didn't. you assume gainey didn't ask anybody else, i assume he asked other teams. i logically assume he did since all we got was gomez and you use your crystal to say he didn't. because what? i guess because he must be the most incompetent GM in NHL history, pft, asking only one team for a trade... what a

this is so ****ing retarded i don't even know where to begin. the players involved in the stewart trade are, now miles ahead of where mcdo was THREE YEARS AGO! this isn't ****ing hard to understand is it? three years ago he was in the WCHA. he was a WCHA player with a possible future in the NHL. the players involved in the stewart trade a proven NHL players. you're saying we should have gotten johnson type of return? good god man.....

both trade are not comparable. at all

or maybe im dense i dunno, explain it

edit: nobody said it's "not that bad in hindsight", its ESPECIALLY bad in hindsight, the point is, we and gainey did not have the knowledge we have now, then.

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10-20-2011, 03:07 AM
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i said koivu wasn't an option because he was part of the problem. you don't change an entire roster but keep the captain. he 'had' to go. the mistake was not trading him. not, not keeping him. that's not 'making stuff up'. if gainey was serious about changing the atmosphere, i had to be let go..
right, so Koivu "had" to go because Gainey wanted him gone...

by that reasoning, one could say that Gainey "had" to trade Mcdo, because he wanted Gomez and that was the asking price...

both feature the same problem, a GM who made a very bad judgement call, one that was visible at the time, and that hindsight has actually made worse.



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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
for the second part, if your saying we could have gotten better return for mcdo then that's exactly what i said: selective memory. the trade stewart trade happened this year, the gomez trade didn't. you assume gainey didn't ask anybody else, i assume he asked other teams. i logically assume he did since all we got was gomez and you use your crystal to say he didn't. because what? i guess because he must be the most incompetent GM in NHL history, pft, asking only one team for a trade... what a
? keep in mind that i responded to a specific post... i haven't taken the time, nor would i bother to, read all of your posts in this thread.

I don't know what other teams would have offered for Mcdo at the time, what I do know is that I would not have traded our #1 D prospect for anything short of an overpayment, and certainly not for a player regarded league-wide as having one of the worst contracts in the league.

if you have a 10K car and want to sell it, and the best offer you get is 500$, you keep the damn car.

the Gomez trade was one of the most incompetent trades in recent league history, I don't think it right to call the man incompetent, but his decision absolutely was, and were he not the respected figure that he is, the reception to the move in public league circles, as negative as it was, would have been far worse.

I do happen to know 2 esteemed hockey people, who have worked in NHL management, and both considered that move to be one of the dumbest they had ever seen...


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this is so ****ing retarded i don't even know where to begin. the players involved in the stewart trade are, now miles ahead of where mcdo was THREE YEARS AGO! this isn't ****ing hard to understand is it? three years ago he was in the WCHA. he was a WCHA player with a possible future in the NHL. the players involved in the stewart trade a proven NHL players. you're saying we should have gotten johnson type of return? good god man.....

both trade are not comparable. at all

or maybe im dense i dunno, explain it
well, as i read it, the post you were replying to was implying that the foolishness of trading away a blue chip d prospect for such a terrible return was made all the more incomprehensible in hindsight when another blue chip d prospect/player was able to land a player of Chris Stewart's caliber.

personally, i think it's clear that Mcdo didn't have, and wouldn't have had 2 years later, the value of an EJ... fair enough, but considering the return EJ, and other quality young blueliners have fetched (especially when they are without an imposing contract), the Gomez deal does look that much worse.

either way, the comparison that was attempted was not that hard to understand, and not that unreasonable. the way you tried to convolute it by focusing on the temporal issue, was silly. HF-Addict clearly wasn't implying that McDo should have been traded for Stewart, simply that as far as expected return, the later deal indicats that we could have made out with a far greater asset than Gomez had Gainey not made that blunder.

hope that makes it easier for you to understand.


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edit: nobody said it's "not that bad in hindsight", its ESPECIALLY bad in hindsight, the point is, we and gainey did not have the knowledge we have now, then.
that's a faulty point.

at the time of the trade, many fans, media pundits and hockey people were quite clear in questioning the rational behind the deal, and many went as far as labelling it as a terrible deal right on the spot.

around here, it doesn't take much digging to find a huge history of posts from people who, in the days/weeks following the trade, spelled out countless reasons why they thought the trade was awful from day one.

it's really kind of sad that we were as "right" at the time as we are now in hindsight. As much as I hated the deal, even as I posted about it a part of me hoped dearly that I would be proven wrong, that gainey would prove to be smarter than everyone else...

didn't work out that way. no use in trying to pretend any different now.

it was a bad decision, a terrible decision, and it hurt the franchise immensly, instead of recovering from a disapointing 2008-09 season (which, don't forget, came on the heels of an EC regular season championship season), we've basically treaded water at the same level in the 2 seasons since, and don't appear destined for much better than yet another bubble playoff team season this year.

instead of taking advantage of a unique roster opportunity to reinforce the quality young assets we had and steadily build the team into a top contender with some staying power, he tried a quick "fix" that turned into an expensive experiment with the status quo... mediocrity for a franchise whose history should push it to demand so much more.

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