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OT: Foreign owners in EPL oppose relegation system

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Old
10-17-2011, 06:12 PM
  #26
Canuckommunist
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Originally Posted by committedindian86 View Post
<snip>
You kiddin' me? Sorry who's in the World Series right now again- Cardinals and Rangers was it? Heh.

Now, let's not pimp the American way either too much.. the NBA is a great example of essentially a two/three-team league as well, with the vast majority of championships being won by two teams and in recent memory, three (though I think this has changed for the better every year since the '00s).

But I prefer the American way infinitely to promotion and relegation. I recognize though that the same probably goes for people used to promotion and relegation. I like stability, the draft and knowing teams year-in and year-out. It's tragic when teams get relocated.. I can't imagine having to deal with teams that just sell off their players like mad every year, acting as virtual farms for higher teams.

But that's just me.

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Old
10-17-2011, 06:26 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
So based on your comments, the desires of the rich owners, and the replies of some posters in this thread telling me that the Champions league is the main thing...

Would you say it is possible that the Champions League evolves into a sort of European super-league with a fixed membership (i.e. franchises) consisting of the top teams from across Europe?

I'm just genuinely curious.
It's a possibility, I'd say for a substantial number of people it's the ultimate goal. But who knows if it ever happens. You'll be hard-pressed to find a majority for it in UEFA, which recently has actually taken steps away from that sort of consolidation in the way the Champions League is organized. And it would take something major to get the big clubs take the risk of breaking away from UEFA and in fact in some countries there would probably be political action to stop it.

I think the Champions League being "the main thing" is sort of a new phenomenon anyway and really only applies to the % of fans who are fans of the sort of super club that wins national titles with such regularity it's not special anymore (e.g. Man U) and newer fans from outside Europe who find the national leagues rather inaccessible.

What makes the European system work on a fan basis is what I would call "tiered expectations". This system has been going on for so long now that fan bases have a keen sense of their club's ceiling and the bottom of what is acceptable. A fan of Plymouth Argyle or Bristol City knows they probably won't ever win the English league title or even make the Champions League with even promotion to the Premier League a decidedly long-shot ambition, but they have their own set of parameters of what constitutes success and failure and it's celebrated and mourned along those lines.

That sort of moderated sense of joy is not for everyone, hence why the majority of fans have always supported the big clubs that do have a chance to win the top honors. What makes recent developments problematic for this system and is maybe hinting at the ultimate establishment of an American style system is the fact that the number of teams capable of challenging for top honors has shrunk dramatically, particularly in England, whereas it has always been a very short list in places like Spain, Italy or Portugal. Germany is probably the country where this system is most sustainable with its Bayern vs. the field dynamic with a different member of the field seemingly stepping up every year or so to challenge Bayern.

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Old
10-17-2011, 06:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
So based on your comments, the desires of the rich owners, and the replies of some posters in this thread telling me that the Champions league is the main thing...

Would you say it is possible that the Champions League evolves into a sort of European super-league with a fixed membership (i.e. franchises) consisting of the top teams from across Europe?

I'm just genuinely curious.

Edit: You can still have relegation/promotion in the national leagues to satisfy the traditionalists. It seems to me that the clubs that would form a permanent-membership Champions League are clubs that are never in any danger of relegation anyway.
The Champions league is the ultimate prize. you are correct.

However, what you suggest would have one of 2 effects on the game.

It would either destroy all the other national leagues, or it would ruin the teams in the 'super league'.

There is a reason football hasn't been franchised off, and it's because it is far too big a risk.

The AFC Wimbledon example shows that, their teams was taken, they created a new one and went from the lowest local league into the professional football league and soon they will be in the same league as the original team which was taken.

There is already a similar version of this happening with FC United of Manchester, who are currently 3 tiers off of the professional leagues after forming in 2005.

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10-17-2011, 07:49 PM
  #29
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That's the American mentality - if you're not first, you're last. European fans of the lower tier teams enjoy the little things in the same way NA fans enjoy only their titles. Playing Champions League (or Europa League, etc.)? For many fans it's their dream. Not winning it, just playing it. Beating or losing respectably to giants like Barcelona or Real Madrid which you may play against once or twice in your lifetime? Wow.

Also Europe is 2x as big as NA, there is probably more than 700 teams in top leagues. If I lost my team to this "idea" (not exactly aimed at the EPL idea but similar ideas concerning Europe as a whole) I'd certainly not be happy. What I'm supposed to do then? Choose another team from a remote city that plays in this parity league? Barcelona? Well, in the current system I can still cheer for Barcelona in the same way and still have my home city team that may one day respectably lose to Barcelona in Champions League.


Sparta Prague fan.

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Old
10-17-2011, 07:55 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by nada View Post
IMO the whole european league system is very flawed anyway. I don't get why there isn't more of a fan-outcry when - in a league with 20 teams - only a handful of them will decide the championship among themselves year in year out, and all the other teams are just participating in the Olympic spirit, with no shot of winning anything, ever...

If they ever want to move towards a system with more parity though, abandoning the relegation system will be one of the necessary steps.
The biggest difference between the European football leagues and American sports leagues is that the teams play a balanced schedule with no playoffs. Short playoff series being a luck element to the game, while imbalanced divisions sometimes distort the notions of who is actually better.

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10-17-2011, 08:08 PM
  #31
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For many fans it's their dream. Not winning it, just playing it. Beating or losing respectably to giants like Barcelona or Real Madrid which you may play against once or twice in your lifetime? Wow.
Wait...there are fans whose biggest dreams and aspirations are simply to compete and "lose respectably" to good teams?

Wow, I'm sorry, but that is just incredibly lame. And sad. Talk about setting the bar low.

I just can't relate to that mindset at all. Every fan should dream of their team winning a championship.

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Old
10-17-2011, 08:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
Wait...there are fans whose biggest dreams and aspirations are simply to compete and "lose respectably" to good teams?

Wow, I'm sorry, but that is just incredibly lame. And sad. Talk about setting the bar low.

I just can't relate to that mindset at all. Every fan should dream of their team winning a championship.
Then be a FC Barcelona fan. What's the problem? People in Europe cheer for their home team + big team like Barcelona, Madrid, Arsenal, Manchester, etc. In your system my team wouldn't exist and wouldn't have a chance to compete and surprise. How am I any richer?

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10-17-2011, 08:25 PM
  #33
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Terrible idea. I might just give up on English soccer if that happened, and I'm an Arsenal fan (92 years up and counting!!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
Wait...there are fans whose biggest dreams and aspirations are simply to compete and "lose respectably" to good teams?

Wow, I'm sorry, but that is just incredibly lame. And sad. Talk about setting the bar low.

I just can't relate to that mindset at all. Every fan should dream of their team winning a championship.
You think that because that's what you've grown up with here.

Remember, they don't have "minor leagues" that are just farm teams like us. Someone who lives in an AHL city and roots for that team but is mainly a fan of an NHL team somewhere close would just be a diehard of that AHL team and hope to someday see them make it to the NHL.

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Old
10-17-2011, 08:27 PM
  #34
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Also this reminds me of an American travelling to a third world country and telling people: "Wow, how can you live like that and be happy." Well, I wasn't born in America and I'm not going to shoot my brains out because of that.

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Old
10-17-2011, 08:29 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
Wait...there are fans whose biggest dreams and aspirations are simply to compete and "lose respectably" to good teams?

Wow, I'm sorry, but that is just incredibly lame. And sad. Talk about setting the bar low.

I just can't relate to that mindset at all
. Every fan should dream of their team winning a championship.
Of course you can't, you don't have true underdogs in American sport.

Take the English FA cup as a prime example.

Bournemouth(4th league) 2 Manchester United(top league) 0 - FA Cup third round, 1984
Wrexham(3rd league) 2 Arsenal(top league) 1 - FA Cup third round, 1992
Manchester United(top league) 0 Exeter City(non-league) 0 - FA Cup third round, 2005
Liverpool(top league) 1 Barnsley(2nd league) 2 - FA Cup fifth round, 2008
Barnsley(2nd league) 1 Chelsea(top league) 0 - FA Cup quarter-final, 2008
Sutton(non league) 2 Coventry(top league) 1 - FA Cup third round, 1989

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10-17-2011, 08:50 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
MLB has had nine different World Series champions in the last ten years. Nine: Diamondbacks, Angels, Marlins, Red Sox, White Sox, Cardinals, Phillies, Yankees, and Giants. And with the Rangers in the WS now, that could be a 10th different team in 11 years.
And if the MLB were a single table like the EPL, how many champions would there have been? Your answer would be 6 in 11 years . Now, imagine we cut the 10 weakest teams out over the past decade out of the league... I can promise you the number would get a lot smaller.

Parity has nothing to do with pro/rel and everything to do with a playoff. Playoffs make buying titles much, much harder. The parity issues in European soccer are entirely related to spending... prior to the huge boom in revenues that came with the founding of the EPL, the English championship was much more up for grabs (though only 4 teams won it in the 80's, due to an extended period of dominance by a Liverpool team that rivaled only the Yankees and Montreal Canadiens in their primes)

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10-17-2011, 08:50 PM
  #37
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It is much more exciting to anticipate a high draft pick and a potential franchise player (that's not "rooting for your team to tank"), because that is part of the process of rebuilding your team into a contender.

It may be exciting in a way to root for your team to avoid relegation, but in the big picture, what has been gained? So you've managed to stay in a top-level competition, where you have no hope of ever contending for a championship, and probably the best you can hope for is to play well enough to fend off relegation from year to year.
That isn't close to being true. Imagine if the Sabres (using the team in your avatar) were in danger of being relegated to the AHL after a poor season. I am sure that would send shudders down the spine of every Sabres fan.

And why? The obvious reason is that, for at least one year and possibly many more, if you still want to attend Sabre games and watch them on TV, then you are no longer watching the Pittsburgh Penguins with Crosby and Malkin come to town with Marc-Andre Fleury in net, you instead have to get used to Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins with leading scorers Brain Lerg and Eric Tangradi, and goaltender Brad Thiessen.

I'd say a heck of a lot is being gained by being able to stay up in the NHL. And so it's the same thing for supporters of EPL teams. Who wouldn't want to watch each of the English game's top stars and clubs come to town for another year over the best that "the Championship" (current name of the 2nd level league) has to offer?

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10-17-2011, 08:56 PM
  #38
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I missed this comment the first time around. You meant it sarcastically, but I agree with the statement whole-heartedly.

It is much more exciting to anticipate a high draft pick and a potential franchise player (that's not "rooting for your team to tank"), because that is part of the process of rebuilding your team into a contender.

It may be exciting in a way to root for your team to avoid relegation, but in the big picture, what has been gained? So you've managed to stay in a top-level competition, where you have no hope of ever contending for a championship, and probably the best you can hope for is to play well enough to fend off relegation from year to year.
Money, you've gained a lot of money. Some teams who are relegated find themselves unable to pay their wages, sell off half the team and then collapse. In other words, there are real stakes.

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Old
10-17-2011, 09:00 PM
  #39
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That isn't close to being true. Imagine if the Sabres (using the team in your avatar) were in danger of being relegated to the AHL after a poor season. I am sure that would send shudders down the spine of every Sabres fan.
Of course the prospect of your team not being in the NHL is a scary prospect. It sent shudders down my spine when their were relocation rumors after the Rigases drove the team into bankruptcy. And again when it came out that Balsillie had inquired about buying the team.

I've experienced that fear. Trust me, the relief from not losing your team is not remotely the same thing as the excitement of contending for a championship.

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Old
10-17-2011, 09:01 PM
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Would never happen since football (English even more so) is hugely traditional. Sure some English teams have dabbled in being owned by foreign people with no footy tradition but this will never happen. The FA is the FA is the FA is the FA, change is the biggest no-no word in their vocabulary.

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10-17-2011, 09:05 PM
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Some teams who are relegated find themselves unable to pay their wages, sell off half the team and then collapse. In other words, there are real stakes.
And you wonder why foreign owners might be skeptical about spending hundreds of millions of dollars to buy into a system where such a thing happens?

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10-17-2011, 09:16 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
And you wonder why foreign owners might be skeptical about spending hundreds of millions of dollars to buy into a system where such a thing happens?
Well that'rs their own fault for not doing their research then. Why should we care if some rich sob was that stupid?

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10-17-2011, 09:16 PM
  #43
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relocation is permanent, relegation not. Also when a team goes down, another one (one actually winning) goes up. If the relegated team has a one bad year, they'll be back the next one.

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10-17-2011, 09:16 PM
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Isn't Foreign owners a bit redundant?

Also, it seems to me, it wouldn't be the top teams that would need to push for this. Its the middle buffer teams, the ones that are really to good for the championship but are never gonna win the title (the way the league currently sits). Those would be the Villas, the Newcastles (tell me Ashley's wallet didn't feel it 2 years ago), the Sunderlands, the Evertons.

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10-17-2011, 09:21 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
Wait...there are fans whose biggest dreams and aspirations are simply to compete and "lose respectably" to good teams?

Wow, I'm sorry, but that is just incredibly lame. And sad. Talk about setting the bar low.

I just can't relate to that mindset at all. Every fan should dream of their team winning a championship.

We're talking about radically different cultural experiences here, though, so of course you can't relate.

For one thing, you can't possibly relate because the league structures are so incomparable. You've got no concept of what it's like to cheer for a team in a European second division because there is nothing that even remotely approaches it in North America. For another, the mere idea of people from Plymouth cheering for a team other than Argyle just because Argyle might never win a title is sacrilege... there's no concept of cheering for a club that's 100 miles away because they're the closest big league team. So you have to set your ambitions realistically based on what's achievable. For some, that means hoping to play in Europe and for others it means hoping your team exists for the next season.


Last edited by Brodie: 10-17-2011 at 09:30 PM.
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10-17-2011, 09:25 PM
  #46
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And you wonder why foreign owners might be skeptical about spending hundreds of millions of dollars to buy into a system where such a thing happens?
The mistake you (and these foreign owners) are making is assuming that people in Europe (especially in England, where they invented both the sport and the league system) accept that soccer is a business just like you and I accept that the NHL is a business. They don't. The idea that things should change from the way they've worked for 150 years to appease some billionaires is absurd to them. You must understand that in the minds of most Europeans, soccer teams are community property and owners are simply meant to be caretakers. The concept of North American style ownership of teams is relatively new to them. 25 years ago most fans (even of big teams like Man U or Liverpool) couldn't even tell you who owned their clubs.


Last edited by Brodie: 10-17-2011 at 09:33 PM.
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10-17-2011, 10:03 PM
  #47
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The mistake you (and these foreign owners) are making is assuming that people in Europe (especially in England, where they invented both the sport and the league system) accept that soccer is a business just like you and I accept that the NHL is a business. They don't. The idea that things should change from the way they've worked for 150 years to appease some billionaires is absurd to them. You must understand that in the minds of most Europeans, soccer teams are community property and owners are simply meant to be caretakers. The concept of North American style ownership of teams is relatively new to them. 25 years ago most fans (even of big teams like Man U or Liverpool) couldn't even tell you who owned their clubs.
Exactly this, which is why this si so absurd John Hnery is complaining about his purchase. If you didn't grow up in the culture, why bother buying a team when you don't understand the community?

I would also say the only thing that comes close to the tiered expectation experience is NCAA football. Some teams like Ole Miss or Tennessee know they are not winning the SEC but if they can knock off Bama or LSU, it was a good season.

Simply put, some owners are proud to be local citizens supporting the local team.

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10-17-2011, 10:07 PM
  #48
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The closest thing we have to a community pro team here are the Green Bay Packers and the Seattle sounders.

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10-17-2011, 10:52 PM
  #49
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The question is, will their fans follow these clubs if they try to break away from the FA structure and create a closed league, or will they form their own club like disenfranchised ManU or Wimbledon supporters?

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10-17-2011, 11:08 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHUK View Post
Of course you can't, you don't have true underdogs in American sport.

Take the English FA cup as a prime example.

Bournemouth(4th league) 2 Manchester United(top league) 0 - FA Cup third round, 1984
Wrexham(3rd league) 2 Arsenal(top league) 1 - FA Cup third round, 1992
Manchester United(top league) 0 Exeter City(non-league) 0 - FA Cup third round, 2005
Liverpool(top league) 1 Barnsley(2nd league) 2 - FA Cup fifth round, 2008
Barnsley(2nd league) 1 Chelsea(top league) 0 - FA Cup quarter-final, 2008
Sutton(non league) 2 Coventry(top league) 1 - FA Cup third round, 1989
George Mason, Virginia Commonwealth, Butler, these schools all beg to differ.

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