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OT: Foreign owners in EPL oppose relegation system

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:39 AM
  #101
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by heutZe View Post
Now let's compare that to the Champions league, which is a better comparison to the NHL vs. the EPL.
I disagree. I compared EPL and NHL regular season. Top 4 finishes in the Champions League are play-off finishes though.
And in the NHL, the same teams take part every year (except for expansion teams), while composition of the Champions League changes every year. And even the size of the Champions League has changed significantly.

1992-93: 8 teams in the Champions League.
1994-95: 16 teams.
1997-98: 24 teams. Vice-champions from the top nations allowed in.
1999-00: 32 teams. 3rd and 4th team from each top nation allowed in.

Not a good comparison IMO.

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10-19-2011, 10:55 AM
  #102
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People are changing the original discussion from relagation/ promotion to parity in the league. Even if the EPL didn't have relagation how would that promote parity? You would still have rich teams and poor teams and equal disparity.

Without relagation you would have teams consistently finishing at the bottom of the table with fans having zero to cheeer for.

With relagation you have teams at the bottom with fans cheering to the very last game wanting enough points to stay up. If demoted they have everything to cheer for in the championship for the chance to be promoted.

Eliminating relagation won't promote parity and certainly won't give supporters of poor teams more to cheeer for.

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10-19-2011, 11:15 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
People are changing the original discussion from relagation/ promotion to parity in the league.
The two issues are connected.

European fans say that promotion and relegation is important because it gives teams at the bottom of the standings something to be excited about (avoiding relegation).

Parity serves the same purpose in the North American leagues. The fact that even the worst teams can draft high and rebuild into a contender within a few seasons gives fans of those bad teams something to be excited about.

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10-19-2011, 11:24 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by heutZe View Post
Now let's compare that to the Champions league, which is a better comparison to the NHL vs. the EPL.

92-93: Marseille, Milan, Rangers, IFK Göteborg.
93-94: Milan, Barcelona, Monaco, Porto.
94-95: Ajax, Milan, Paris Saint-Germain, Bayern Munich.
95-96: Juventus, Ajax, Panathinaikos, Nantes.
96-97: Borussia Dortmund, Juventus, Ajax, Manchester U.
97-98: Real Madrid, Juventus, Borussia Dortmund, Monaco.
98-99: Manchester U, Bayern Munich, Dynamo Kiev, Juventus.
99-00: Real Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona, Bayern Munich.
00-01: Bayern Munich, Valencia, Real Madrid, Leeds United.
01-02: Real Madrid, Bayer Leverkusen, Manchester U, Barcelona.
02-03: Milan, Juventus, Internazionale, Real Madrid.
03-04: Porto, Monaco, Chelsea, Deportivo La Coruna.
04-05: Liverpool, Milan, Chelsea, PSV Eindhoven.
05-06: Barcelona, Arsenal, Milan, Villareal.
06-07: Milan, Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchester U.
07-08: Manchester U, Chelsea, Barcelona, Liverpool.
08-09: Barcelona, Manchester U, Arsenal, Chelsea.
09-10: Internazionale, Bayern Munich, Lyon, Barcelona.
10-11: Barcelona, Manchester U, Real Madrid, Schalke 04.

29 Different teams in 19 years:

8x: Barcelona
7x: Milan, Manchester United
6x: Real Madrid
5x: Bayern Munich, Juventus, Chelsea
3x: Monaco, Ajax, Liverpool
2x: Porto, Borussia Dortmund, Valencia, Internazionale, Arsenal
1x: Marseille, Rangers, IFK Göteborg, Paris Saint-Germain, Panathinaikos, Nantes, Dynamo Kiev, Leeds United, Bayer Leverkusen, Deportivo La Coruna, PSV Eindhoven, Villareal, Lyon, Schalke 04.

Doesn't prove anything. But it was fun to check out. the Champions league had a lot more parity then I thought.
But the Champions League is not really a league in terms of format. As I'm sure you know, it is mostly a knockout tournament.

So it isn't very useful or accurate to compare it's top 4 to the NHL's the way one might compare leagues such as the EPL to the NHL. Champions League would be closer to an FA Cup, which presumably has even more variability in its final 4's because it is an even "purer" (no group stage in middle) knockout tournament.

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10-19-2011, 11:36 AM
  #105
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I agree that you have to compare the NHL to the Champions League, not the EPL. In hockey, the NHL is the top league and the top players play in it. But in soccer there are many top leagues (England, Spain, Italy, Germany, etc) and they have to fight for the top players. Look at what happened when the WHA became a threat, everything soon changed in the NHL from salaries to the number of teams.

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10-19-2011, 11:40 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
People are changing the original discussion from relagation/ promotion to parity in the league. Even if the EPL didn't have relagation how would that promote parity? You would still have rich teams and poor teams and equal disparity.

Without relagation you would have teams consistently finishing at the bottom of the table with fans having zero to cheeer for.

With relagation you have teams at the bottom with fans cheering to the very last game wanting enough points to stay up. If demoted they have everything to cheer for in the championship for the chance to be promoted.

Eliminating relagation won't promote parity and certainly won't give supporters of poor teams more to cheeer for.
If there was no relegation, then it would be feasible to have an entry draft (with of course lowest teams picking first, top teams picking last). With relegation, I can't see how an entry level draft would work.

Personally, I like both the relegation system in Europe and the entry draft in NA leagues; I just can't see how both could co-exist in the same league.

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10-19-2011, 11:47 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by heutZe View Post
Winning the Premier League/La Liga/Serie A/Bundesliga is priority number one for the big teams, not winning the Champions League.

It's sad that you look at it that way. I support Norwich City, which will most likely never win the Premiership or qualify for the Champions League, but I still find a lot of reasons to cheer for them. This year, I will celebrate every win as a championship and if we are able to suvive, I will be thrilled. I don't need my team to contend for the Premier League to support them.
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Yeah.... I'm not so sure about that.
This can really vary. Ask a Manchester City fan what's more important the Premiership or the Champions League and they'd go for the former in a heartbeat. Why? Because they haven't won the domestic league since about the 60s. Liverpool too - they haven't won the title for over 20 years. Now a Chelsea or United fan may lean towards the Champions League title but it would probably vary from person to person. My own view is that first and foremost you want to be champions of your own country; and I believe this will be shared by most "proper" fans i.e. those that actually go along to the stadiums and watch games.



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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
The one mistake your making is no mention of the playoff/division system. Your comparing the two countries' parities is ridiculous. The Champions' league is the only thing in Europe that resembles North American championship structures. NCAA football shows you that without playoffs, a single table style of games produces the same champs every year.
A balanced league structure used to work perfectly. Pre-1980s English football was tremendously competitive and no-hopers could be transformed into league winners. Money has destroyed this as the vast sums generated by the sport have flowed to a handful of elite clubs. Also America is a huge country and regional divisions are logical. Therefore play-offs become necessary to determine who the champion should be. A balanced fixture list negates the use of play-offs and their use would make the regular season utterly meaningless.

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10-19-2011, 12:26 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by RandR View Post
If there was no relegation, then it would be feasible to have an entry draft (with of course lowest teams picking first, top teams picking last). With relegation, I can't see how an entry level draft would work.

Personally, I like both the relegation system in Europe and the entry draft in NA leagues; I just can't see how both could co-exist in the same league.
No it wouldn't, because a top "prospect" in England can simply leave to play in Spain or Italy if they want.

The fact that European soccer contains 3 absolutely elite professional leagues (plus several others at a high level such as Germany, France, etc.) prevents anything like an entry draft from being feasible.

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10-19-2011, 01:07 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
No it wouldn't, because a top "prospect" in England can simply leave to play in Spain or Italy if they want.

The fact that European soccer contains 3 absolutely elite professional leagues (plus several others at a high level such as Germany, France, etc.) prevents anything like an entry draft from being feasible.
The presence of alternative leagues of similar quality in other jurisdictions does not and would not prevent leagues from holding entry drafts. For example, the NHL entry draft is not at any risk if the prominence of the KHL continues to rise.

Nor did the NHL abandon their entry draft when the WHA was in existence competing for young players (and signing Wayne Gretzky amongst others).

And in football, the vast majority of the top English-born or raised players still play in the Premier League. How many have opted to start their careers on the continent?

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10-19-2011, 01:13 PM
  #110
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An Entry Draft wouldn't even be legal in the European Union: Freedom of movement for workers!

I wouldn't like the abolition of promotion and relegation either. The one North American institution that would be very healthy for European football is the Salary Cap.

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10-19-2011, 01:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
An Entry Draft wouldn't even be legal in the European Union: Freedom of movement for workers!
Entry drafts only apply to the league doing the drafting, and do not affect the freedom of players to go play in other leagues.

Players drafted by the NHL are perfectly free to go play in the KHL or SEL instead.

MLB draftees can play in Japan or Korea. NFL draftees can go play in the CFL if they wish.

Now, whether they would want to do so is a different question, but they are free to do that if they want.

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10-19-2011, 01:31 PM
  #112
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An entry draft system woudl never work in English football. Players go up through an academy system and that's how they develop. There is no junior league or highschool / university system from which to draft players from .

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10-19-2011, 01:57 PM
  #113
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Entry drafts only apply to the league doing the drafting, and do not affect the freedom of players to go play in other leagues.
Players drafted by the NHL are perfectly free to go play in the KHL or SEL instead.
The Premier League has a monopoly in England and that's enough to make a Premier League Entry Draft illegal in the eyes of the European Court of Justice.

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10-19-2011, 02:10 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by RandR View Post
The presence of alternative leagues of similar quality in other jurisdictions does not and would not prevent leagues from holding entry drafts. For example, the NHL entry draft is not at any risk if the prominence of the KHL continues to rise.

Nor did the NHL abandon their entry draft when the WHA was in existence competing for young players (and signing Wayne Gretzky amongst others).

And in football, the vast majority of the top English-born or raised players still play in the Premier League. How many have opted to start their careers on the continent?
It wouldn't prevent it, it would simply neuter it's effectiveness. The NHL/KHL situation is quite a bit different because one has demonstrated much more stability and ability to maintain high wages, both at the top end and across the salary distribution. The EPL/La Liga/Serie A are much closer in pretty much all respects (geographic, cultural, financial, prestige, etc.) than the NHL and KHL, or any other hockey comparison (or comparison with another pro sport where the top league is in North America). I you are the most talented young British footballer, and your choice to play at a bottom table EPL club or at Barcelona, what is your likely decision?

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10-19-2011, 02:26 PM
  #115
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A draft is as implausible as no relegation. The Premiership is not a closed shop - it's simply the top tier in a massive pyramid that goes all the way down to grass-roots soccer. If the top 20 teams get to select the best up and coming talent in a draft where does that leave everyone else? It simply perpetuates the dominance of the bigger teams. A lot of small clubs survive by scouting and developing good young players and selling them on. The North American system is great but it's at total odds with European football. Chalk and cheese.

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10-19-2011, 02:54 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
Entry drafts only apply to the league doing the drafting, and do not affect the freedom of players to go play in other leagues.

Players drafted by the NHL are perfectly free to go play in the KHL or SEL instead.

MLB draftees can play in Japan or Korea. NFL draftees can go play in the CFL if they wish.

Now, whether they would want to do so is a different question, but they are free to do that if they want.
What the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB can do has absolutely no relevance to what is legal in the European Union. If a EU-player decides he wants to play in North America, that is up to him, the EU isn't responsible for what laws apply outside of the EU. As long as he wants to work within the EU he has all the rights of a normal worker and as such anything that restricts his movement, be it a draft or something like restricted free agency, is strictly prohibited.

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10-19-2011, 03:05 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
What the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB can do has absolutely no relevance to what is legal in the European Union. If a EU-player decides he wants to play in North America, that is up to him, the EU isn't responsible for what laws apply outside of the EU. As long as he wants to work within the EU he has all the rights of a normal worker and as such anything that restricts his movement, be it a draft or something like restricted free agency, is strictly prohibited.
The thing that I think you don't understand is that, in North America, the league is a single entity in a way that it isn't in Europe. A league draft only affects a player's interactions with that entity, and doesn't affect a player's freedom to play for any other league.

When the WHA was around, NHL draftees were still perfectly free to sign with WHA teams, and they often did. Even Gretzky did. When the USFL was around, many NFL draftees (including future Hall of Famers like Jim Kelly) chose to play for the USFL instead of going to the NFL.

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10-19-2011, 03:06 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
What the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB can do has absolutely no relevance to what is legal in the European Union. If a EU-player decides he wants to play in North America, that is up to him, the EU isn't responsible for what laws apply outside of the EU. As long as he wants to work within the EU he has all the rights of a normal worker and as such anything that restricts his movement, be it a draft or something like restricted free agency, is strictly prohibited.
Sounds like a good and progressive system to me.

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10-19-2011, 03:15 PM
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Let me start by saying that I love the pro/rel system. I hope one day that MLS and American soccer as a whole can grow to the point where this system can be implemented. Secondly, just addressing a few things mentioned in this thread:

Quote:
As I understand it, the EPL title is only contended by the same four teams every year. In Spain, only two teams have a chance. In Italy, three.
As far as the EPL, it's gotten much more competitive over the past two years. Tottenham and Manchester City have both cracked into the top four, and this year there's currently 5 teams within 5 points of 4th place, although it's still early in the season.

As for the "lack of underdogs"...you need not look any further than Birmingham City in the Carling Cup last year.

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10-19-2011, 03:30 PM
  #120
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As far as the EPL, it's gotten much more competitive over the past two years. Tottenham and Manchester City have both cracked into the top four, and this year there's currently 5 teams within 5 points of 4th place, although it's still early in the season.

As for the "lack of underdogs"...you need not look any further than Birmingham City in the Carling Cup last year.
There's a big big difference to scrapping in to the top 4 and winning a title. And is that really a worthy goal - to get 4th place in a league? Yes, it brings you Champions League football but there's surely more to sports than being 4th! I don't see how it's of much interest to a neutral fan. City have now become a genuine contender but it's only at the whim of a foreign owner spending obscene money that's got them there. They've had to go down the same route Chelsea did.

This season the Premier league title is between 3 teams: United, Chelsea and City. No one else can or will win it. You can make that claim with almost 100% certainty. The next three will be Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs. In what order I'm not sure but once again it's almost 100% that these teams will fill 4th-6th spots. Is that really an exciting competitive sporting event?

As for the Carling Cup - it's thought of very poorly by virtually all fans and not just those of the big clubs. No one cares until their team maybe gets to the semi-final. Managers use it as a chance to rest their good players and play reserves.

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10-19-2011, 03:53 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by LuxDux View Post
This season the Premier league title is between 3 teams: United, Chelsea and City. No one else can or will win it. You can make that claim with almost 100% certainty. The next three will be Arsenal, Liverpool and Spurs. In what order I'm not sure but once again it's almost 100% that these teams will fill 4th-6th spots. Is that really an exciting competitive sporting event?
If it's exciting to you is a question you have to answer for yourself, but why are you bothered by what's exciting to the untold millions across the world who follow it?

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10-19-2011, 04:20 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by MayDay View Post
The two issues are connected.

European fans say that promotion and relegation is important because it gives teams at the bottom of the standings something to be excited about (avoiding relegation).

Parity serves the same purpose in the North American leagues. The fact that even the worst teams can draft high and rebuild into a contender within a few seasons gives fans of those bad teams something to be excited about.
but the lack of parity has nothing to do with P/R

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10-19-2011, 04:29 PM
  #123
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The thing that I think you don't understand is that, in North America, the league is a single entity in a way that it isn't in Europe. A league draft only affects a player's interactions with that entity, and doesn't affect a player's freedom to play for any other league.
The difference is that the WHA or USFL or the ABA were all unstable leagues trying to compete in a market already dominated by older leagues. Serie A is almost equal to the EPL in every respect. A draft would simply mean all the top young English talent not going to the top clubs would leave the country.

That's not even dealing with the legality of restricting a right to work in the EU or with how this would effect non-domestic players or with how players would be developed in a country where the idea of school sponsored sports is considered an oddity.

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10-19-2011, 05:51 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
but the lack of parity has nothing to do with P/R
I brought up the Champions League and competition from other leagues as a reason to keep P/R and not have salary caps and all the useless crap people proposed. The Premiereship would be at a disadvantage if they abolished P/R...

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10-19-2011, 06:27 PM
  #125
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If it's exciting to you is a question you have to answer for yourself, but why are you bothered by what's exciting to the untold millions across the world who follow it?
I can only offer my own opinion - no one elses. And I except I am swimming against the tide.

As you rightly point out, millions now follow the Premiership from across the globe and really it is no longer merely an "English" league. However the vast majority of people simply choose to follow the top division and most of them will root for the top teams - whoever the flavour of the moment is. It's no coincidence that 10 years ago you would never have seen a non-Brit wearing Chelsea or Manchester City replica shirts. But these people care little about the wider game in England - a lot of people in England don't so why on earth would the overseas fans?! As long as their favourite team is near the top of the league why would they care about Plymouth going bust in Division 2 or the Sheffield derby in Division 1 or why Steve Coppell quit Bristol City so suddenly in the Championship? It's simply human nature to jump on the bandwagen of success.

However I don't see how anyone can objectively say that currently it's a competitive league, that it's healthy a club can simply buy titles and that it's good for a handful of teams to dominate year in year out - and isn't that what a lot of American/Canadian posters have been saying on this thread? One of the reasons I've really been drawn in to the NHL in recent years is that not only is ice hockey a brilliant game but that the NHL is run with a level of parity that has simply disappeared from football. In short, brilliant sport, brilliant league. Personally I find it sad the way money has corrupted football in my own country.


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