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Phoenix XL - Rich Man's World

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Old
10-22-2011, 04:56 PM
  #126
Motown Beatdown
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
I think the NHL prefers JR, in a strange way, because he does NOT have any interest in owning an NHL team. He would buy the Coyotes for the community. And, if it didn't work out after 5 years, he would most likely just walk away - not try and relocate the team.

As for QC, I don't believe they would be getting the money they need for the arena without a (behind close doors) promise of a NHL team down the road. My guess, it will be expansion team for a cool $200M with another team for Southern Ontario...

I say Toronto. Killion says "NO!!!"
you mean the same Jerry Reinsdorf who basically held the city of Chicago hostage over the White Sox, threatening to move them to Florida until they paid for a new stadium. Yeah i see them doing whats best for the residents of Arizona and not his pocket book

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10-22-2011, 05:51 PM
  #127
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I find it interesting how some "potential" owners seem/are above lending their name for the sake of the process. Why do people assume to know what Millionaires are willing to do? (Member the whole "TNSE wouldn't lend their names out just for the hell of it thing"...are these "potential" owners above playing the game TNSE did?..No is the answer...)


Moyes: Filthy rich, local
Hulsizer: no, he's legit.
IEH: no, they "have" money.
JR: why would he ever lend his name, he's rich and has a "reputation"...
JJ: no, he's been in the business/sport

TNSE: a rich car salesman and a son of a media empire who played the game, let THEIR names out, played the "no comments" "not happening" and "nothing going on" cards, GLADLY, and also, the only ones now with a team....

What makes JR OR JJ different? Curious is all.

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10-22-2011, 05:58 PM
  #128
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Yeah i see them doing whats best for the residents of Arizona and not his pocket book
Ya. The Legendary Jerry Reinsdorf & his "seat tax", receiving cash from the Guv' for every unsold ducat in the stadium. Tax Attorney extraordinaire. Miserly is too kind a word. Me thinks KevyD should do a little more research on that one before making comments that he'd be buying the Coyotes for "the good of community" and then if it fails..."just walk away". The man is quite capable of demanding that he be given the right to sell the team to the leagues arch enemy Jim Balsillie up in Hamilton for $500M & receive permission to do so if within 5-7yrs he cant make it work in Phoenix. Not that Balsillie has that kind of money anymore but still. This is not some benevolent, munificent & generous old Uncle were talkin about, this is a guy who would scare the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present & Future out of the room or under the bed. Wouldnt even bother with some spaced out trip of redemption.


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10-22-2011, 09:03 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Gretzky being owed $8.5M & Moyes signing personal guarantee's that have been ramped up to (app.) $53.5M for a total claim of $62.5M. Moyes floated close to $700M+ on a stock offering last year & if he's found to be in breach of the personal guarantee's he signed with the league in 2008, along with the franchise agreement itself, it would seem to me that this isnt exactly a case of trying to get "Blood from a Stone" as another poster so aptly put it. Quite the contrary, Im thinking "There Will be Blood". That being said, as CasualFan pointed out, that the District Court basically punted without call for any further requirements pursuant to the last hearing earlier this month, the ball on this ones' breaking records for "hangin" in terms of air-time.



Several things, much of it subtle. As you know, Hulsizer pulled out last May, the league signing a 10yr AMUL with the COG renewable annually without penalty should they decide to relocate the franchise. Separately, for 2011-12, and to be voted on & approved annually thereafter by the COG, a $25M "Arena Management Fee" to be paid to the NHL or if the league sells & assigns the AMUL to Reinsdorf or Jamison. Alternatively, the latter two could deal directly with Glendale pre or post acquisition in working out an AMULA.

It has been confirmed by multiple, reliable sources throughout the summer & fall that yes, Greg Jamison of San Jose leads a group of Investors who reportedly have raised somewhere around $400M. Further, it was confirmed that he was in fact forced out of San Jose' last October, however for various reasons, still sat on the leagues powerful Executive Committee & retained the position as the Sharks designate on the BOG's, a position which recently expired... John Kaites meanwhile appears to have taken a lead role with the Reinsdorfs, Jerry & Michael, along with a rumored 2-3 other minority partners in taking another run at the team, again, confirmed by multiple reputable media sources.

Contemporaneously, Ellmans backers in Westgate pulled the plug pushing the development into foreclosure. iStar Financial, a publicly traded real estate development firm was/is owed $96M & seized Westgate; Credit Suisse a whopping $500M+ (on other Ellman deals in addition to Westgate) and seized vacant land adjacent to the mall & Glendale Arena earmarked for development. A public auction for the vacant land is planned (no date set that Im aware of); the auction for Westgate closed in mid-September when no one bid iStars reserve of $40M. If so inclined, GJ/JR could re-enjoin the development with the franchise now or, let iStar & Credit Suisse "dangle" & buy the entire ranch including the franchise for a song, as its very likely the NHL will be offering a deep discount (using TNSE's $60M relo fee to pay-down their LOC) and possibly terms whereby Jamison or Reinsdorf assumes the leagues LOC with Bank America. Any number of possibilities/creative ways to get that done.

Phoenix/Glendale has won the 2015 SuperBowl. Tanger Discount Superstores is scouting Westgate for a massive 70+ store mall. The nearby air base is about to receive a fat contract from the feds. If it ever see's the light of day, the Tohono's Indian Bands' plans could deliver hundreds of millions to Westgate & Glendale. The Bidwells' have plans for a massive development adjacent to Westgate called Sportsmans Park, golf course, single family homes, condo's, shopping, the works. As another poster stated some time ago, little wonder a couple of Wise Old Silverbacks like JR/GJ are circling, quietly and out of view.
Do you realize you just summarized some 50+ threads lasting over three years in only 4 paragraphs??

kdb's gonna be looking for you.

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10-22-2011, 09:19 PM
  #130
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Ya. The Legendary Jerry Reinsdorf & his "seat tax", receiving cash from the Guv' for every unsold ducat in the stadium. Tax Attorney extraordinaire. Miserly is too kind a word. Me thinks KevyD should do a little more research on that one before making comments that he'd be buying the Coyotes for "the good of community" and then if it fails..."just walk away". The man is quite capable of demanding that he be given the right to sell the team to the leagues arch enemy Jim Balsillie up in Hamilton for $500M & receive permission to do so if within 5-7yrs he cant make it work in Phoenix. Not that Balsillie has that kind of money anymore but still. This is not some benevolent, munificent & generous old Uncle were talkin about, this is a guy who would scare the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present & Future out of the room or under the bed. Wouldnt even bother with some spaced out trip of redemption.
Jerry "I stand by my MOU" Reinsdorf....

Remember, Reinsdorf's first MOU was a pretty clear indication of what he thought of the worth and financial requirements for purchasing the Coyotes and keeping them in Glendale. The team has to be cheap ($100 million was his offer in May 2010) and subsidized. If both of those are not on offer, then they certainly need to be highly portable. Since his first MOU with Glendale, the economy has gone sour, Westgate has fallen into foreclosure and the franchise has taken a step or two backwards on and off the ice. It is hard to imagine that he is going to improve his offer, when he was evidently happy to walk away and leave the franchise to other bidders before.

I still think this will come down to the NHL and whether it is willing to drop the purchase price substantially. Perhaps that is why there is a sense that the pendulum has swung back to the Jamison group. Perhaps they are willing to consider a higher purchase price than is Reinsdorf.

Finally, I think that we need to also realize that it is possible that we are going to hear the occasional smokescreen from the NHL to make it seem as though progress is being made, even if they are not sure that there is. They are responsible for any financial losses over $25 million, so the last thing they will want is a sense of doom among the current fans. So, even if the team is likely to be sold, they are unlikely to admit it until very late in the process. It would be stupid to do otherwise.

How the NHL can let things go like this for so long is beyond me. Shameful, I think.

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Old
10-22-2011, 09:38 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
How the NHL can let things
go like this for so long is beyond me.
Shameful, I think.
I couldnt agree more Whileee.
The leagues handling of this file has been deplorable.
Do they care?. (insert cynical emoticon here)

And Legend?. kdb's already lookin for me with a Warrant for My Arrest for "makin stuff up" on the history boards, using copious footnotes referencing non-existent players, owners, rules & arenas etc... uh oh, I think I hear him comin, gotta run, ta 4now...


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10-22-2011, 09:56 PM
  #132
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I couldnt agree more Whileee.
The leagues handling of this file has been deplorable.
Do they care?. (insert cynical emoticon here)

And Legend?. kdb's already lookin for me with a Warrant for My Arrest for "makin stuff up" on the history boards, using copious footnotes referencing non-existent players, owners, rules & arenas etc... uh oh, I think I hear him comin, gotta run, ta 4now...
I think that the NHL cares about keeping the team in Glendale, but I think that they are being too clever by half. It seems to me that they have misread several dynamics in the Coyotes ownership saga, including the intentions and financial capabilities of some of the ownership hopefuls. Perhaps they have thought that they could somehow leverage Glendale into providing enough subsidies to entice an ownership bidder to pay the full purchase price, and make off like bandits. But I really can't see it happen. If they are going to drop the price, do it pronto and move on. These delays could be deadly, quite literally for the Coyotes franchise in Glendale.

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10-22-2011, 10:57 PM
  #133
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While most of the damages the NHL is seeking strike me as unlikely to happen I still think there's a good chance Moyes ends up paying Gretzky his owed money and the NHL gets the personal guarantee amount. Those agreements were signed directly with Moyes the individual, who has not personally filed for bankruptcy.
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Moyes floated close to $700M+ on a stock offering last year & if he's found to be in breach of the personal guarantee's he signed with the league in 2008, along with the franchise agreement itself, it would seem to me that this isnt exactly a case of trying to get "Blood from a Stone" as another poster so aptly put it. Quite the contrary, Im thinking "There Will be Blood". That being said, as CasualFan pointed out, that the District Court basically punted without call for any further requirements pursuant to the last hearing earlier this month, the ball on this ones' breaking records for "hangin" in terms of air-time.
You can sue Moyes the individual until you are blue in the face. He will stand behind his bankrupt company. Since the courts seem to be leaving this in the hands of the Bankruptcy settlement, it leads one to believe that they are not holding him personally accountable for this one. His contracts and bakruptcy actions were all in the name of a fallen company. I can't think of many scenarios in which a majority shareholder was held responsible for their incorporations covenants.

I would be quite surprised if he ever has to sacrifice his personal finances in this, outside of a settlement to make it go away.

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10-22-2011, 11:29 PM
  #134
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I would be quite surprised if he ever has to sacrifice his personal finances in this, outside of a settlement to make it go away.
Certainly the first para of your post is correct, its that last sentence there where I think we might have a problem. Moyes signed "personal guarantees' & assurances" with the NHL that supercede, are outside of the realm of his BK'd estate when he signed off on the Franchise Agreement containing all kinds of covenants pursuant to even being allowed to declare BK. Along with personal guarantee's on advances he received in 2008 to purportedly help prop up the team mere weeks & months before he pulled the plug. The NHL as you know has filed suit against him personally, his wife Vicky & their Family Trust for $62.5M. Are you suggesting, Sir, that the NHL would launch a "nuisance suit"?.

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10-22-2011, 11:51 PM
  #135
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Certainly the first para of your post is correct, its that last sentence there where I think we might have a problem. Moyes signed "personal guarantees' & assurances" with the NHL that supercede, are outside of the realm of his BK'd estate when he signed off on the Franchise Agreement containing all kinds of covenants pursuant to even being allowed to declare BK. Along with personal guarantee's on advances he received in 2008 to purportedly help prop up the team mere weeks & months before he pulled the plug. The NHL as you know has filed suit against him personally, his wife Vicky & their Family Trust for $62.5M. Are you suggesting, Sir, that the NHL would launch a "nuisance suit"?.
I am flattered by being called a "sir", as I don't believe I am qualified to receive such a title.

I wouldn't summarize the NHL's actions as a nuissance suit. The NHL is much more calculated than to involve themselves such an action. I don't believe they had any other choice but to do so. It serves as a precedence to illustrate to other franchise holders as to what might be in store if they decided to follow in Moyes' footsteps. They are well within their rights to call this action. I just don't believe they will prevail in their efforts here. Time will tell, my friend. We will surely discuss at the post-game conference.

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10-23-2011, 03:48 PM
  #136
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So, I've been less than diligent on this subject lately (real life stuff-you know stuff I have to get off the computer for )-any word/hint/innuendo/suggestion/speculation/guess as to when we MIGHT hear an announcement regarding who the NHL is going to take to the ball (Jaimeson is looking very fine in that teal outfit but Reinsdorf's ruthless red ensemble is eye catching)

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10-23-2011, 05:05 PM
  #137
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I doubt Riensdorf or Jamieson will get the coyotes do to the fact that Goldwater won't let the NHL. sell the coyotes to ethier party if means keeping the coyotes in Phoenix because Goldwater has made it quite clear that they want the coyotes out of Arizona . The only way I can see goldwater allowing Reinsdorf or Jamieson to buy the coyotes if choose to assume the coyotes masive debt in which I doubt they would plus next year is an election year & the best case secinaro for glendale city council is to let the coyotes go & pray that people in glendale will forget all this happened when comes to election time .

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10-23-2011, 05:22 PM
  #138
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I doubt Riensdorf or Jamieson will get the coyotes do to the fact that Goldwater won't let the NHL. sell the coyotes to ethier party if means keeping the coyotes in Phoenix because Goldwater has made it quite clear that they want the coyotes out of Arizona . The only way I can see goldwater allowing Reinsdorf or Jamieson to buy the coyotes if choose to assume the coyotes masive debt in which I doubt they would plus next year is an election year & the best case secinaro for glendale city council is to let the coyotes go & pray that people in glendale will forget all this happened when comes to election time .

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10-23-2011, 05:33 PM
  #139
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How does Goldwater impact anything if bonds are not part of a sale?

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10-23-2011, 06:20 PM
  #140
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How does Goldwater impact anything if bonds are not part of a sale?
They dont. At the moment not at all provided neither Jamison nor Reinsdorf are attempting another play with the COG that involves subsidies, bonding, CFD's or whatever, and I dont believe they'd be stupid enough to try that one on again after watching the COG & Hulsizer go down in flames. Goldwater may affect the sale if they decide to challenge the $25M Arena Management Fee being paid to the NHL this season in terms of price, if they can get it quashed (no sign whatsoever there planning to either) & of course it might deter the potential buyers from moving ahead if they cant secure a reasonable Management Fee themselves, albeit one thats likely going to be considerably less that the rather steep $25M the leagues receiving.

Secondly, at no time has the Goldwater announced that regardless of whatever deals tabled they want the Coyotes punted from the state of Arizona, and even if they did, who cares?. They are an unelected self appointed watchdog group right of right whose mandate is not to set policy nor usurp the will of the elected & electorate they represent. You of course are likely aware of this, and just what the poster aboves carrying on about Im sure I havent got a clue.


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10-23-2011, 06:35 PM
  #141
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JMRowe,

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10-23-2011, 07:22 PM
  #142
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They dont. At the moment not at all provided neither Jamison nor Reinsdorf are attempting another play with the COG that involves subsidies, bonding, CFD's or whatever, and I dont believe they'd be stupid enough to try that one on again after watching the COG & Hulsizer go down in flames. Goldwater may affect the sale if they decide to challenge the $25M Arena Management Fee being paid to the NHL this season in terms of price, if they can get it quashed (no sign whatsoever there planning to either) & of course it might deter the potential buyers from moving ahead if they cant secure a reasonable Management Fee themselves, albeit one thats likely going to be considerably less that the rather steep $25M the leagues receiving.

Secondly, at no time has the Goldwater announced that regardless of whatever deals tabled they want the Coyotes punted from the state of Arizona, and even if they did, who cares?. They are an unelected self appointed watchdog group right of right whose mandate is not to set policy nor usurp the will of the elected & electorate they represent. You of course are likely aware of this, and just what the poster aboves carrying on about Im sure I havent got a clue.

GWI has stated they are for the team staying as long as it does not mean the taxpayers end up footing any part of the bill.

How that translates into the claim that GWI absolutely wants the team out of AZ is a head scratcher... even for me.

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10-23-2011, 07:51 PM
  #143
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GWI has stated they are for the team staying as long as it does not mean the taxpayers end up footing any part of the bill.

How that translates into the claim that GWI absolutely wants the team out of AZ is a head scratcher... even for me.
JMRowe might have been assuming that the Coyotes are not viable without taxpayer subsidies. There is a case to be made for that assumption.

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10-24-2011, 06:12 PM
  #144
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GWI has stated they are for the team staying as long as it does not mean the taxpayers end up footing any part of the bill.

How that translates into the claim that GWI absolutely wants the team out of AZ is a head scratcher... even for me.
The GWI would have a heroic win if the Coyotes stayed with minimal public subsidies. It would be a "win-win" from their perspective.

As Killion notes above, I don't think a deal gets done with anything near the sorts of subsidies contemplated previously. The GWI has served notice, and more importantly, the City of Glendale has shown their reluctance to litigate on this issue. Notwithstanding the public sabre-rattling by Glendale, they made no efforts to dismiss the GWI in court.

In the end, I think this will come down to whether the NHL is willing to drop the purchase price substantially, and whether Glendale is willing to live with an "out clause" for a new owner. If so, it will just be up to the new ownership and fans to make it work in the next several years. That's probably how it ought to be.

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10-24-2011, 06:42 PM
  #145
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...it will just be up to the new ownership and fans to make it work in the next several years. That's probably how it ought to be.
Absolutely, and something thats been screamingly bloody obvious for months. Just what the problems are this time around?...
The rusty old saw just keeps on playing the same tired refrain every day & week that passes without resolution... ripping through the foundations or fixing them?. The next BOG's meeting is a mere what, 5-6 weeks away?, the end of the year a mere 60 and change.

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10-24-2011, 06:49 PM
  #146
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Absolutely, and something thats been screamingly bloody obvious for months. Just what the problems are this time around?...
The rusty old saw just keeps on playing the same tired refrain every day & week that passes without resolution... ripping through the foundations or fixing them?. The next BOG's meeting is a mere what, 5-6 weeks away?, the end of the year a mere 60 and change.
I think the problems are more than obvious. The Coyotes are still an exciting team and now have the NHL as an owner, trying to find a potential owner while advertising much more than previous years. With all this they still only have 5k people at their home games.

It's not ownerships fault or the teams fault, it's the lack of fans. If the people of Phoenix are so mad about the ownership a poor way of showing so is by not showing up. Shouldn't they know by now that if they show up for games there is a better chance their team will stay?

Oh well, lets find a new excuse for the 5k attendance shall we?

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10-24-2011, 08:13 PM
  #147
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If the people of Phoenix are so mad about the ownership a poor way of showing so is by not showing up.
That certainly could be a factor dronald. Cant really blame them for being fed-up & burned out, deeply cynical, that no matter what it looks like the teams' a goner' so why invest emotionally or financially but still. It would be helpful to see a boost at the gate.

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10-24-2011, 08:16 PM
  #148
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That certainly could be a factor dronald. Cant really blame them for being fed-up & burned out, deeply cynical, that no matter what it looks like the teams' a goner' so why invest emotionally or financially but still. It would be helpful to see a boost at the gate.
Imagine the Yotes were selling out (or close to it) I bet you the new owner would be in the press box watching the games by now, instead they have approx 5k in attendance vs LA.

Would you own this team?

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10-24-2011, 08:56 PM
  #149
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Would you own this team?
Sure. If I had the dream & inclination to own a franchise Id take it on. There are a lot of positive things happening in Glendale/Phoenix & Arizona, people tending to accentuate the negatives as to why the team should be moved, writing off Westgate & the market as a lost cause, a failed "experiment", whatever. Ive never looked at it that way, though like a lot of old school fans I was initially against any expansion beyond the Northeast, Mid-West, California & Vancouver. Mistakes were made. Too much, too soon, too fast. Now that its done, fix it. You dont give up. You dont quit if you believe in the sport & NHL brand. Hell, you could make it work in Mexico City or Honolulu if you have the passion, drive & money.

Phoenix is a piece of cake.

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10-24-2011, 09:19 PM
  #150
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Sure. If I had the dream & inclination to own a franchise Id take it on. There are a lot of positive things happening in Glendale/Phoenix & Arizona, people tending to accentuate the negatives as to why the team should be moved, writing off Westgate & the market as a lost cause, a failed "experiment", whatever. Ive never looked at it that way, though like a lot of old school fans I was initially against any expansion beyond the Northeast, Mid-West, California & Vancouver. Mistakes were made. Too much, too soon, too fast. Now that its done, fix it. You dont give up. You dont quit if you believe in the sport & NHL brand. Hell, you could make it work in Mexico City or Honolulu if you have the passion, drive & money.

Phoenix is a piece of cake.
If someone had just awakened from a 2 1/2 year coma and stopped by this thread, they'd learn: the Coyotes are in Glendale; owned by the NHL; up for sale; attendance is atrocious; and Jerry Reinsdorf is reportedly trying to buy the team. They'd think they were only comatose for a few hours.

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