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Desperate Times Call For

View Poll Results: What do you do now? (check all that apply)
Stay the course. Howson and Arneil will right the ship. Give them time. 10 13.16%
Trade for a G, either demote or get rid of Mason. 31 40.79%
Upgrade the D. A significant upgrade will likely cost RyJo/high picks but gotta do it. 22 28.95%
Strip Nash's C, or trade him 23 30.26%
Make other moves to detonate the player leadership core (besides Nash) 11 14.47%
Fire Arneil. 24 31.58%
Fire Howson immediately. Start the search for a new GM. 24 31.58%
Fire Howson at the end of the year. 8 10.53%
Fire Priest. 29 38.16%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-19-2011, 08:41 AM
  #26
Double-Shift Lassť
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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
Desperate times call for more threads.
I'm glad someone posted it.

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Old
10-19-2011, 08:54 AM
  #27
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Sacrifice a live chicken at center ice to remove the curse.

No goalie: clearly GMSH is a man of patience, and I think he will wait till Dex is healthy to prove himself. I would give the odds on Dex being the starter by Christmas at 50-50.

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:01 AM
  #28
Skraut
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here's a radical idea...

HOW ABOUT WE DON'T CHANGE A THING FOR A CHANGE.

It's the ONLY thing we haven't tried in the past few years.

List taken from the fantastic blog post by Alison
http://heartofajacket.blogspot.com/2...sh-for_18.html
  • First, Hitch was the problem. Well, Hitch got fired
  • Then, last year, everyone was incensed that we kept the exact. same. roster. Well, the roster got blown up
  • During a last minute gasp to try and make the playoffs we demanded more significant moves when players weren't doing what we needed. Um yeah, hello AHL and NHL merry-go-round
  • We complained about developing young talent "too quickly" and not letting them develop an "attitude of winning" - well, did Cam go down perhaps in part to not getting burned by this skid and the "acceptance of losing"?
  • We said our scouting sucked - all of a sudden, our roster is so thick with rookies, that I don't think anyone got that first roster right when it came down to final cuts. Are we still trying to figure out the right chemistry?

According to Einstein, the definition of Insanity "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Yet here is this insane fanbase yelling "Look at all the things we've changed, they aren't working, what can we change to fix it????"

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:07 AM
  #29
Crisp Breakout
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
here's a radical idea...

HOW ABOUT WE DON'T CHANGE A THING FOR A CHANGE.

It's the ONLY thing we haven't tried in the past few years.

List taken from the fantastic blog post by Alison
http://heartofajacket.blogspot.com/2...sh-for_18.html
  • First, Hitch was the problem. Well, Hitch got fired
  • Then, last year, everyone was incensed that we kept the exact. same. roster. Well, the roster got blown up
  • During a last minute gasp to try and make the playoffs we demanded more significant moves when players weren't doing what we needed. Um yeah, hello AHL and NHL merry-go-round
  • We complained about developing young talent "too quickly" and not letting them develop an "attitude of winning" - well, did Cam go down perhaps in part to not getting burned by this skid and the "acceptance of losing"?
  • We said our scouting sucked - all of a sudden, our roster is so thick with rookies, that I don't think anyone got that first roster right when it came down to final cuts. Are we still trying to figure out the right chemistry?

According to Einstein, the definition of Insanity "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Yet here is this insane fanbase yelling "Look at all the things we've changed, they aren't working, what can we change to fix it????"
So no matter what pieces you bring in, it just doesn't work. Hmm... Seems like there might be a piece that is just too big of a deal on its own and has a negative influence on the new pieces...

Another thing the Jackets have never tried is having a #1 defenseman.

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:12 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
here's a radical idea...

HOW ABOUT WE DON'T CHANGE A THING FOR A CHANGE.

It's the ONLY thing we haven't tried in the past few years.
Actually Howson has tried keeping the roster intact for the most part over his time. You aren't going to keep a roster completely free of changes, obviously

Radical idea? No. Stupid suggestion to ownership this morning? Probably. You would probably end up with a sharp object protruding from your chest.

Can this team rebound? Maybe. Is there something fundamentally broke with this team? Yes. If you believe in the roster, how long can you go before a coaching change to try and get them going? If you believe in the coach, how long can you go without making some in the locker room? How can you trust the GM to make the right move(s)?

Really, you aren't going to get many people around hockey to agree with you. There just isn't really any evidence on the ice that things are going to change in a positive direction. Even when they work hard, they aren't getting the results. The players might end up in a situation where they just lose confidence in what they are being told to do. If this was just a slow start to this year, I might agree with you. But this extends to last year as well.

I am going to wait and see how things play out, but I'm not going to insult people by suggesting that no change is what we need to do right now. Someone needs to change something, even if that's just Arniel tweaking things.

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:16 AM
  #31
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Desperate times call for:
  1. an exorcism of the arena
  2. burning a ton of sage in the arena to rid it of all of the bad juju
  3. getting the arena blessed by priests of every acceptable religion
  4. sacrificing a virgin
  5. removing the ice and put down a fresh new layer completely made of holy water

Those are just some thoughts. I'm not a religious person but I'm willing to try anything at this point after watching this for 11 years.

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Old
10-19-2011, 09:48 AM
  #32
Skraut
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Actually Howson has tried keeping the roster intact for the most part over his time. You aren't going to keep a roster completely free of changes, obviously
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=377598

Here is the team Howson inherited...

Nash / Fedorov / Vyborny
Chimera / Novotny / Zherdev
Modin / Malhotra / Brule
Fritsche / Boll

Klesla / Hejda
Foote / Westcott
Tollefsen / Russell
Hainsey

Leclaire

Scratch: Wescott

3 of 22 players is an interesting definition of "Intact" He's "blown up" the team twice since he's been here. In his first offseason, and in this most recent. He's also had 3 head coaches, completely changed the assistants (some more than once) the training staff, and some of the scouts.

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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Radical idea? No. Stupid suggestion to ownership this morning? Probably. You would probably end up with a sharp object protruding from your chest.
Cool, then I'll take one for the team, since nobody else clearly is willing to. If you make decisions based on the outcry of thousands of uninformed fans, then you're no better than Matt Millen's reign with the Lions, or the past 11 years of the Cleveland Browns. It takes courage to do the right thing, it's easy to just make random changes to appease the fanbase. Chimmer was sacrificed needlessly to appease fans who "needed change" These are the changes that you make when your desperate. If you guys want to give up NHL players in return for guys who won't be in the league in a few years just to "shake things up" I truly question your sanity.

Look at New Jersey last year. They made major changes to their chemistry, and had a bad year. They took the draft pick and moved on all the better this year because the team has finally gelled.

Look at the Avs a few seasons ago. Went from 95 points in 08 to 65 points in 09, then were back to 95 points again in 10. The took that 09 season, became a better team after all the changes in the previous offseason, and collected Matt Duchene along the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Can this team rebound? Maybe. Is there something fundamentally broke with this team? Yes. If you believe in the roster, how long can you go before a coaching change to try and get them going? If you believe in the coach, how long can you go without making some in the locker room? How can you trust the GM to make the right move(s)?
Yes there is something fundamentally wrong with this team: there is no damn consistency. Nashville has enjoyed 6 trips to the playoffs, and the bend the Jackets over every opportunity they get. Why, because they know Trotz' system. He was given time to make it work and perfect it, and it works, despite the relative lack of talent and spending on the team

Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Really, you aren't going to get many people around hockey to agree with you. There just isn't really any evidence on the ice that things are going to change in a positive direction. Even when they work hard, they aren't getting the results. The players might end up in a situation where they just lose confidence in what they are being told to do.
I know, I sure as hell have tried for the past few seasons for people to see reason. But ya all got the changes you asked for, and now all of us as fans are stuck with the result.

You don't see any "evidence" perhaps you should watch the games. I've seen all at least once, some twice, and my wife has seen all of them 3 times as we've tried to pull highlights out of both the home and away feeds.

I see players missing passes because they have completely new linemates. But I'm sure trading players and shaking things up even more is the cure to this.

I see blown coverage on Defense because players don't know what their D partner is going to do. But again, I'm sure changing things up even more will help us find those players with ESP who will magically know what to do.

I see a team who has stayed in most of the games, despite playing without much hustle and jump. There's no attack, because they don't know what their own teammates are going to do, they're playing on read and react to not only the other team, but their own teammates.

I see a goalie who has had coverage break down in front of him, give up goals he had no chance on, then get on himself and let a softie in. Clearly he's the problem. We need to trade him for somebody who can "steal" games by stopping the guy completely wide open in the paint, so that situation never happens.

We're all frustrated.

But at some point you have to realize that if you keep digging, you aren't going to make it to China. You're just going to be left with a bigger hole to try and get out of.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:05 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
I'm glad someone posted it.
Thirded.

I think I'm with Skraut on this one ... we're pretty well married to the core guys now (Nash, Carter, Wisniewski, Tyutin, Umberger) ... those are your leadership guys for the next 5+ seasons. Get used to it.

As with Skraut, I believe things will come around. We're 0-6 ... a lot of very good teams go on 6 game losing streaks. Our goal differential is only a -8 for those 6 games. Give us one powerplay goal per game (like a lot of good teams can get), and we're probably 3-3 right now. Give us Wisniewski and Kristian Huselius, and I'd bet we would be just fine. Everyone was also sooo excited to see what Mark Dekanich would do as an NHLer ... well, we haven't even had the chance to see that yet.

Not ready to hit the panic button yet. We haven't yet seen anything close to a healthy roster.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:11 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
Skraut, I said he's tried to keep the roster intact mostly the same over time. Showing the roster from day one doesn't fit within that context. I can't believe you even thought for a second that I didn't realize what the roster was when he got here.

I'm not even sure when I'm going to get to the rest of it, I kind of gave up after the NJ comments. I've quickly realized that anything I say you are going to spin it or not give any real thought to what I've typed. You've got a bit of the bull mentality going today, you saw some red and charged.

You are pretty smart, so I didn't think I would have to expand my points out into a book and that you would understand where I was going (since we've debated it for years) even if you didn't agree with it. You know that Howson has been obsessed with locking up his core. This is attempt #2 at that.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:14 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
Thirded.

I think I'm with Skraut on this one ... we're pretty well married to the core guys now (Nash, Carter, Wisniewski, Tyutin, Umberger) ... those are your leadership guys for the next 5+ seasons. Get used to it.
Should be fun to see where we are at after games 10 and 20. I hope we turn it around and this becomes moot.

Since I've said in multiple threads the core is what it is, you are more than just with Skraut. The debate isn't necessarily roster moves now is it?

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:26 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Skraut, I said he's tried to keep the roster intact mostly the same over time. Showing the roster from day one doesn't fit within that context. I can't believe you even thought for a second that I didn't realize what the roster was when he got here.

I'm not even sure when I'm going to get to the rest of it, I kind of gave up after the NJ comments. I've quickly realized that anything I say you are going to spin it or not give any real thought to what I've typed. You've got a bit of the bull mentality going today, you saw some red and charged.

You are pretty smart, so I didn't think I would have to expand my points out into a book and that you would understand where I was going (since we've debated it for years) even if you didn't agree with it. You know that Howson has been obsessed with locking up his core. This is attempt #2 at that.
You're right, I went over the top. It's what 5 years of being on the opposite side of every argument will do to you. You try and make as much noise as you can to try and get people to see reason. Sometimes you have to hit people with the 'ol cluebat. I'm sorry if I left a welt, or bruised your ego.

I went through this years ago, and was constantly attacked because I was the last person on this board on the Fire Hitch bandwagon. Then hey look there's a "Reinstate Hitch" thread right next to the Fire Howson thread, right next to the , Should we have Hitch back with Douggie Mac thread...

Everybody wants to change something, but most are unwilling to change the one thing I've been fighting for for the past 5 years, to change how often we change things.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:34 AM
  #37
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This thread is really pretty silly.

We haven't seen a 100% healthy Carter.
We haven't seen Wiz play a meaningful game.
We haven't seen much of what Dekanich(sp?) can do.
We haven't seen what Richards can do for the power play because he doesn't have all the tools he was promised.

We're getting back to a fearful team because they can't score goals. A team that you can punish for penalties because they're not going to make you pay for it. The Jackets tend to play an even, relaxed game of cat and mouse until someone makes a mistake. The effort is there, it's just not noticible until we're down a goal or it's late in the 3rd (and we're down). Ownership has spent the money and I firmly believe we have the talent to be dangerous, it's truly a time to sit and wait for it to come together. Like it or not, this is your team folks... locked up long term.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:46 AM
  #38
Nanabijou
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I have been a big Howson supporter, and I like Arniel. I also buy the theory to a certain extent that there were so many changes this year that the team is not comfortable. Not sure how that fully explains Umberger and Vermette's slow start, but I'll buy it in general terms.

I agree that we can't just blow up the team every year and expect that we're going to magically stumble on the solution. I understand and agree in principle with what Skraut is saying. But, I can't deny that I am dangerously close to hitting the panic button. Our schedule for the rest of the month is not getting easier. I think it's clear based on our last 2 years (and New Jersey last year) that you can't disappear for a month and make it to the playoffs. You virtually have no margin for error if you go on a 1-10-1 swoon or something similar.

I am really worried about the arena deal if this team doesn't turn it around quickly and the politicians start bringing attention to the inevitable fact that only 5000-6000 fans will be showing up for games soon. I just have this gut feeling that this year is critical to whether the Jackets can survive in Columbus. We may not have to make the playoffs, but we have to be in the hunt. We can't afford to have a write-off year at this point. I could be way off-base, but that's how I feel.

So, there is no way around it. Arniel has to find a way to win at least 2 out of the next 3 games. Then he needs to win at least 2 out of the next 3. That takes us to Halloween and we'd have a 4-7-1 record. Not great, but then there is some momentum heading into November where we have 7/12 home games and no back-to-backs where we could hopefully get back to .500 and look to reverse our December trend. If he can't do this over the next 6 games, I'm ready to look at alternatives.

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Old
10-19-2011, 10:50 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
snip

Yes there is something fundamentally wrong with this team: there is no damn consistency. Nashville has enjoyed 6 trips to the playoffs, and the bend the Jackets over every opportunity they get. Why, because they know Trotz' system. He was given time to make it work and perfect it, and it works, despite the relative lack of talent and spending on the team



I know, I sure as hell have tried for the past few seasons for people to see reason. But ya all got the changes you asked for, and now all of us as fans are stuck with the result.

You don't see any "evidence" perhaps you should watch the games. I've seen all at least once, some twice, and my wife has seen all of them 3 times as we've tried to pull highlights out of both the home and away feeds.

I see players missing passes because they have completely new linemates. But I'm sure trading players and shaking things up even more is the cure to this.

I see blown coverage on Defense because players don't know what their D partner is going to do. But again, I'm sure changing things up even more will help us find those players with ESP who will magically know what to do.

I see a team who has stayed in most of the games, despite playing without much hustle and jump. There's no attack, because they don't know what their own teammates are going to do, they're playing on read and react to not only the other team, but their own teammates.

I see a goalie who has had coverage break down in front of him, give up goals he had no chance on, then get on himself and let a softie in. Clearly he's the problem. We need to trade him for somebody who can "steal" games by stopping the guy completely wide open in the paint, so that situation never happens.

We're all frustrated.

But at some point you have to realize that if you keep digging, you aren't going to make it to China. You're just going to be left with a bigger hole to try and get out of.
Skraut, for the record, I agree with you. One of the consistent things about this team / organization has been a lack of stability from the beginning.
How many coaches have we gone through relative to every other team in the league?
King - 204 games
MacLean - 79 games
Gallant - 142 games
Agnew - 5 games
Hitchcock - 284 games
Noel - 24 games
now Arniel.

How much better would we have been if MacLean could have swallowed his ego and left King in place? What if he had hired a good replacement?

Has the organization ever had a vision? I think Howson and Arniel are trying to develop one. But those things don't happen overnight. We have key pieces hurt and suspended. They haven't been blown out of the water ala last season yet. They haven't looked good, but they haven't been creamed either.

It takes time. Time some out there are unwilling to take.

I don't like having the normal "December feelings" in October either. But it doesn't mean that the team should be running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Everyone step back a minute and see if you can think of improvements on the ice while reviewing the games from the beginning of the season. Adjustments are being made, certain player blends work better than others, with the number of new people you need time to see results.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:27 AM
  #40
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This is quite the conundrum.

We really haven't seen the entire team play together as it was projected to consist of during the pre-season. Really, very key players are on the shelf with injuries or suspension. We probably could have absorbed this later in the season, but right at the start, when a team is trying to gel, it is quite devastating.

Dekanich's injury destroyed any hope of someone stepping in should Mason falter. Wiz suspension was devastating to the power-play, and a suspect defensive corps. Boll going down took out needed toughness. Love him or hate him, Juice can be a deadly player when he wants to be.

On top of that, we now lose Carter, Methot, and our only other goalie option in Sanford.

Then, in what I consider a very dubious move, Atkinson gets sent down. I could see Calvert because he looks like he could use a confidence boost, but Cam was all over the ice every shift, and created scoring chances. Bad in his own zone? Who the hell isn't on this team?

If you include Calvert and Atkinson, that is 9 players that were projected to be playing as Jackets. Without those 2, you are still down 7 NHL bodies.

Like I said, mid season, you get by with this mess. Start of the season, pretty tough. I realize that the total has just hit the aforementioned number, but we were also without Mac early.

My big complaint with Arniel is the apparent lack of any real direction for the team, or any identity. Sure he has had to adapt on the fly, but what does he want? Three scoring lines, or more shut-down. I guess Mason has forced him to go more to a defensive posture.

Not that it is all Mason's fault. Two goals a game ain't going to get it. Mason was bad last night, though.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:30 AM
  #41
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I am surprised no one has mentioned Umberger's disasterous non-performance so far.

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Old
10-19-2011, 11:39 AM
  #42
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I am surprised no one has mentioned Umberger's disasterous non-performance so far.
My thought has been that for some reason, Umby is trying to be too cute. He needs to get into the dirty areas where he belongs. He is a guy that scores the "greasy" goals, and he isn't giving himself the chance to do that.

I actually thought Vermette looked better last night. Not great, but better.

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Old
10-19-2011, 12:15 PM
  #43
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I think this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part. And we're just the guys to do it.

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Old
10-19-2011, 12:19 PM
  #44
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Everybody wants to change something, but most are unwilling to change the one thing I've been fighting for for the past 5 years, to change how often we change things.
I understand your point and appreciate your clarification. I can't say that I find it any more or less of any issue than the majority of teams. You get some of the power houses that stay power houses and only fill in a piece from time to time. But the constantly under performing teams have a hard time moving up and staying up. The middle of the road teams struggle to make the changes they need to push themselves over the top.

This team doesn't have the appearance of a power house. It looks like it could be competitive, however, it is really under performing and we are going backwards since the playoff team. More changes, even if less dramatic, need to occur. I don't have confidence in either the coaching staff or the GM. I'm ok with our GM on draft day, but his overall plan hasn't done much for me. We went outside the normal comfort level this off season, through prodding. Thus far it hasn't paid off. I'm not upset about that, I'm just concerned it took this to get to this point. I feel we've lost time in the past.

Who knows maybe it will payoff with this group (players, GM, coach), but I don't know how much time you think is enough. The last 30 games suggest changes are needed. We've had other teams that had more changes than we did performing better than we are.

At the end we don't have any control over who stays employed so obviously it doesn't matter if we want to be patient or not. But I can say that if we haven't made a big dent into getting back to 500 by game 20, I can't remotely support staying the course. Only useful in context for continued discussion.


Last edited by blahblah: 10-19-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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Old
10-19-2011, 12:39 PM
  #45
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I think this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part. And we're just the guys to do it.
Got a big old car you want to donate to the cause?

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Old
10-19-2011, 12:41 PM
  #46
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So no matter what pieces you bring in, it just doesn't work. Hmm... Seems like there might be a piece that is just too big of a deal on its own and has a negative influence on the new pieces...

Another thing the Jackets have never tried is having a #1 defenseman.
Since we have a glut of centers now, may I ask for the board's consideration...
Would Brassard, a 3rd-4th liner and a pick be enough to fetch a #1 defenseman? If so, should we do it? For next season, you'd still have Carter, Vermette, Johanson and MacKenzie down the middle.

(I offer Brassard instead of Johanson because we'll need the salary cap space)

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10-19-2011, 12:43 PM
  #47
pete goegan
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
At the end we don't have any control over who stays employed so obviously it doesn't matter if we want to be patient or not. But I can say that if we haven't made a big dent into getting back to 500 by game 20, I can't remotely support staying the course. Only useful in context for continued discussion.
All too true.

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Old
10-19-2011, 01:03 PM
  #48
leesmith
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
I think this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part. And we're just the guys to do it.
We get ourselves a life-size cutout of Andrea Cambern for the locker room. Each time the boys win... Oh wait, that's been done already!

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10-19-2011, 01:08 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Who knows maybe it will payoff with this group (players, GM, coach), but I don't know how much time you think is enough. The last 30 games suggest changes are needed. We've had other teams that had more changes than we did performing better than we are.
In the middle of that 30 games we brought in a new first line center, a new top power play quarterback, 2 new backup goaltender.

All 3 have proven ineffective.

Carter doesn't have any goals. Who cares if he's been playing hurt and is leading the league in faceoffs.

Dekanich doesn't have an shutouts yet. Clearly he's the problem.

Same goes for Sanford.

Our vaunted PPQB has a whopping total of ZERO points so far, so clearly he's useless.

It's been 5 games, they've all had time to prove themselves as the "Savior" of the team, and the team hasn't been "Saved"

Quick! Get rid of them and try somebody new!!!!!!!






(do I really need the ?)

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Old
10-19-2011, 01:16 PM
  #50
Palinka
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
Since we have a glut of centers now, may I ask for the board's consideration...
Would Brassard, a 3rd-4th liner and a pick be enough to fetch a #1 defenseman? If so, should we do it? For next season, you'd still have Carter, Vermette, Johanson and MacKenzie down the middle.

(I offer Brassard instead of Johanson because we'll need the salary cap space)
To answer your first question, that's a matter of time and circumstance.

To answer your second question, the answer would be to wait unless the return was good enough that there's no sense in waiting.

Don't forget that no one has seen Wisniewski here in the regular season, or a couple of other players for that matter. It's entirely possible that his play alone will create a huge boost. It's possible that the next three or four games will all be wins. It's possible that something happens that acts as a galvanizing force. Also, Brassard still projects as a possible first-line center, although he's further behind the development curve than I would have expected by this point.

The biggest change I'd make is to do what Lou Lamoriello used to do when he had a young struggling team. The paychecks would be delivered to his office, and on payday, each player would have to come in and actually get it from him. Lamoriello would sometimes just give it to the player, but other times he'd look the player in the eye and ask, "Can you honestly say that you earned this paycheck?"

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