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Torrey "Stonehands" Mitchell, would you re-sign?

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Old
10-20-2011, 06:27 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I don't care what Mitchell does this year, if he asks for more than 1.5 mil, let him walk. His speed is replaceable. His defensive ability for the role is replaceable. His production is replaceable. I think the Sharks brought in James Sheppard for the sole purpose of eventually replacing Torrey Mitchell.
Sheppard would do a horrible job of replacing Mitchells speed/tenacity. If anything Sheppard should be a Mcginn replacement.

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10-20-2011, 06:30 PM
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13 yrs 125 million.
You forgot a decimal after the 2.

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10-20-2011, 07:10 PM
  #28
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He is still one of my favorite Sharks. I see something in him that bodes well for the long term. He brings a great work ethic
I feel the same way about McGinn. As rookies they both showed so much promise, that neither of them have lived up to. I'm always rooting for both of them to have a breakout year, but you can only do that for so many years.

Here's to both of them having their breakout year THIS year.


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10-20-2011, 08:24 PM
  #29
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to soon to tell, hes off to a good start after coming on late last season.

if i had to guess, i'd say yes for about what he's getting now.

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10-20-2011, 08:48 PM
  #30
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Sheppard would do a horrible job of replacing Mitchells speed/tenacity. If anything Sheppard should be a Mcginn replacement.
Mitchell's speed and tenacity doesn't yield much of anything in terms of results. Mitchell is merely a smarter McGinn with less of a shot. Sheppard has more skills if he can learn to be consistent here. The difference being that McGinn can be kept beyond next year w/o any effort. Mitchell can walk of his own accord if he likes. That and McGinn has a lot more potential than Mitchell ever had and is much younger.

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10-20-2011, 09:00 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I don't care what Mitchell does this year, if he asks for more than 1.5 mil, let him walk. His speed is replaceable. His defensive ability for the role is replaceable. His production is replaceable. I think the Sharks brought in James Sheppard for the sole purpose of eventually replacing Torrey Mitchell.
No way. That was a massive gamble and shot in the dark based on his natural talent level. I also think that was another part to the two deals they made that was put on hold for some reason.

I don't think they have an NHL plan for Sheppard, at least in the short term. I think they'll give him a shot in the NHL for a couple games, and when he fails there, he'll get thrown into the AHL until he can prove himself. If he can pan out, he'll pan out. If not, then he's a career AHLer.

I can't see him being Torrey's replacement, the skill sets are different and it's too much of a gamble.

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10-20-2011, 09:12 PM
  #32
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No way. That was a massive gamble and shot in the dark based on his natural talent level. I also think that was another part to the two deals they made that was put on hold for some reason.

I don't think they have a plan for Sheppard. I think they'll give him a shot in the NHL, and when he fails there, he'll get thrown into the AHL until he can prove himself. If he can pan out, he'll pan out. If not, then he's a career AHLer.

I can't see him being Torrey's replacement, the skill sets are different and it's too much of a gamble.
I don't think you know too much about James Sheppard if you believe this nonsense. A 3rd round pick for an NHL'er is not much of a gamble, let alone massive. The only gamble is in his health after the injury he suffered. If he comes back healthy, he is an NHL'er...period. There is no doubt about that. This is no different than the gamble that DW took on Torrey Mitchell himself when he re-signed him to a 3 year deal after his horrific injury.

The skill sets being different isn't really a good enough reason to keep Mitchell. Mitchell is a UFA 3rd liner at best. The only skill he has that is above average is his skating. Defensively, he's average. He doesn't have any consistent offensive skills. He's played himself out of the center role due to his poor face-off percentage. He may be slotted as an F1 but he's not really that productive at it.

The upside to Sheppard is much higher than Mitchell and once he's healthy, he's already pretty much equal to Mitchell in terms of effectiveness as long as he doesn't drastically lose speed due to the injury...but I'm not concerned about it because it was basically the same conversation had after Mitchell's injury. And the biggest reason why I would take Sheppard over Mitchell is that Sheppard would be a decent player in all three zones whereas Mitchell is really only decent in the defensive zone.

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10-20-2011, 09:19 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I don't think you know too much about James Sheppard if you believe this nonsense. A 3rd round pick for an NHL'er is not much of a gamble, let alone massive. The only gamble is in his health after the injury he suffered. If he comes back healthy, he is an NHL'er...period. There is no doubt about that. This is no different than the gamble that DW took on Torrey Mitchell himself when he re-signed him to a 3 year deal after his horrific injury.

The skill sets being different isn't really a good enough reason to keep Mitchell. Mitchell is a UFA 3rd liner at best. The only skill he has that is above average is his skating. Defensively, he's average. He doesn't have any consistent offensive skills. He's played himself out of the center role due to his poor face-off percentage. He may be slotted as an F1 but he's not really that productive at it.

The upside to Sheppard is much higher than Mitchell and once he's healthy, he's already pretty much equal to Mitchell in terms of effectiveness as long as he doesn't drastically lose speed due to the injury...but I'm not concerned about it because it was basically the same conversation had after Mitchell's injury. And the biggest reason why I would take Sheppard over Mitchell is that Sheppard would be a decent player in all three zones whereas Mitchell is really only decent in the defensive zone.
Massive gamble as in he's unlikely to pan out.

Ask any Wild fan, he has no business in the NHL.

Mitchell is a legitimate 3rd liner, good forechecker, energy player, etc. If Sheppard does manage to become an NHL regular on our team, it'll be as a top 6 player. I think of him as similar to Wellwood, not skilled enough to play in the top 6, not good enough physically or defensively to play in the bottom 6.

Equal in terms of effectiveness? If you mean offensively, yeah, sure.

I think you're massively overrating Sheppard. Wild fans straight up hate him, he has 49 points in 225 games and had 6 points in 64 games last season. He's been given tons of chances to succeed, and hasn't.

I'm not denying his upside is alot higher than Mitchell's, but so is the downside. He's had 3 full NHL seasons and is 23 years old, it's do or die for him now. He was a shot in the dark who was only picked up because of his draft ranking and the price we gave up.

And yes I'm aware he was a regular player for Minnesota, but that's the thing, it's Minnesota. He's not (or shouldn't) be good enough to crack this roster when everyone is healthy.

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10-20-2011, 09:36 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SJSharks2010 View Post
Massive gamble as in he's unlikely to pan out.

Ask any Wild fan, he has no business in the NHL.

Mitchell is a legitimate 3rd liner, good forechecker, energy player, etc. If Sheppard does manage to become an NHL regular on our team, it'll be as a top 6 player. I think of him as similar to Wellwood, not skilled enough to play in the top 6, not good enough physically or defensively to play in the bottom 6.

Equal in terms of effectiveness? If you mean offensively, yeah, sure.

I think you're massively overrating Sheppard. Wild fans straight up hate him, he has 49 points in 225 games and had 6 points in 64 games last season. He's been given tons of chances to succeed, and hasn't.

I'm not denying his upside is alot higher than Mitchell's, but so is the downside. He's had 3 full NHL seasons and is 23 years old, it's do or die for him now. He was a shot in the dark who was only picked up because of his draft ranking and the price we gave up.

And yes I'm aware he was a regular player for Minnesota, but that's the thing, it's Minnesota. He's not (or shouldn't) be good enough to crack this roster when everyone is healthy.
Massive gamble implies they have something massive to lose if that were to occur. That is simply not the case.

Asking a Wild fan to judge skill is pointless. The only players they've had that has been able to show off any skill in their existence is Marian Gaborik and Mikko Koivu. Two outstanding talents that had to be absolutely special to make up for incompetent management and a stifling coaching style that doesn't exactly make players improve their skills.

Mitchell is not an effective fore-checker. Just because he skates well doesn't mean he's doing much with it. He doesn't force turnovers that much which is the point of fore-checking. Mitchell doesn't do much to create energy. He has improved his play along the boards but that's pretty much where the puck stays unless he turns it over.

How is comparing Sheppard to Wellwood appropriate or even relevant? Wellwood is a finished product. He is what he is. Sheppard is far from that and hasn't really been given proper help.

There is simply no way that it's do or die for Sheppard. Stop exaggerating things as it loses your credibility. He's restricted after this contract and is coming off a serious injury. Would you say that the 2009-10 season was do or die for Mitchell even though he had two more years on his contract? Absolutely not because you need to have realistic expectations for players coming off serious injuries. The first full year of playing is more or less a rehab year, nothing more.

As for Sheppard compared to the players on this roster, a bad Sheppard is one I would take over anyone on our 4th line easily.

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10-20-2011, 10:24 PM
  #35
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A 3rd in a pretty weak draft for a 3rd liner isn't much of a gamble. He's already a better player than any of our prospects that are anywhere close to the NHL. The only two guys that MAY have more potential are Nieto and Sgarbossa.

Sheppard and Minnesota had about as bad a relationship as a player and an org can have. He was poorly developed (and I suspect he knows it) because he was rushed way too early to the NHL. Had he been drafted a Shark he would have likely spent 3-4 seasons in development. This would be equivalent to us rushing Couture to the NHL, as the two players had very similar potential. Had we thrown Couture into the NHL the year after he was drafted he would have very likely floundered as well.

On top of that, he played on a very poor team and was expected to do way too much. When he got injured (stupidly, of course) the team decided saving his meager salary was more important than maintaining a good relationship with their player and suspended him.

He needed a fresh start, and he's still young enough to meet at least some of his potential.

If not, it was a 3rd rounder, not a big deal.

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10-21-2011, 12:09 AM
  #36
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Massive gamble as in he's unlikely to pan out.

Ask any Wild fan, he has no business in the NHL.

Mitchell is a legitimate 3rd liner, good forechecker, energy player, etc. If Sheppard does manage to become an NHL regular on our team, it'll be as a top 6 player. I think of him as similar to Wellwood, not skilled enough to play in the top 6, not good enough physically or defensively to play in the bottom 6.

Equal in terms of effectiveness? If you mean offensively, yeah, sure.

I think you're massively overrating Sheppard. Wild fans straight up hate him, he has 49 points in 225 games and had 6 points in 64 games last season. He's been given tons of chances to succeed, and hasn't.

I'm not denying his upside is alot higher than Mitchell's, but so is the downside. He's had 3 full NHL seasons and is 23 years old, it's do or die for him now. He was a shot in the dark who was only picked up because of his draft ranking and the price we gave up.

And yes I'm aware he was a regular player for Minnesota, but that's the thing, it's Minnesota. He's not (or shouldn't) be good enough to crack this roster when everyone is healthy.
mitchell has 3 full seasons in the nhl and is 26 years old and has 57 points in 208 games.

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10-21-2011, 02:43 AM
  #37
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If you're looking at Mitchell's point production you're doing it wrong. Tmac has said that goals the 3rd line scores are considered a bonus, but as someone else said above, Mitchell needs to OWN the PK. He was mentored by Mike Grier, plays the same type of game, but needs to be better on the PK.

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10-21-2011, 05:03 AM
  #38
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Mitchell's speed and tenacity doesn't yield much of anything in terms of results. Mitchell is merely a smarter McGinn with less of a shot. Sheppard has more skills if he can learn to be consistent here. The difference being that McGinn can be kept beyond next year w/o any effort. Mitchell can walk of his own accord if he likes. That and McGinn has a lot more potential than Mitchell ever had and is much younger.
By results do you mean points? Because if thats all youre looking at when evaluating a 3rd line energy player you are doing it wrong. Mitchells speed and energy are important in gaining momentum, causing turnovers and creating space for his teammates.

Also, calling Mitchell a smarter Mcginn with less of a shot is bs. All Mcginn has shown is that he can hit and occasionally pot a goal. If youre telling me that Sheppard should replace Mitchell because he doesnt have the "results" you should look at Mcginns results. 25 points in 147 NHL games is not a pretty stat. His AHL stats are no better than Mitchells were either. All Mcginn really has in terms of results is his 1 good year in juniors.

Mitchell has been getting better and better since his injury, while Mcginn has still yet to show anything at the NHL level. Theres really no reason to think that Mcginn is better than Mitchell, or that he has more potential at this point (and considering that Mitchell's development was delayed almost 2 years, age isnt really that great of an argument).

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10-21-2011, 05:12 AM
  #39
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mitchell has 3 full seasons in the nhl and is 26 years old and has 57 points in 208 games.
Thats a lot better than Mcginns 25 points in 150 games. And Sheppards 49 points in 224 games.

Mitchells development isnt that much farther than Mcginn's or Sheppards. His potential should not be decided over his age considering that he his development has been put back so much do to injury. He's basically at the development level of a 24 year old and he still has a lot of room to get better.

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10-21-2011, 08:23 AM
  #40
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By results do you mean points? Because if thats all youre looking at when evaluating a 3rd line energy player you are doing it wrong. Mitchells speed and energy are important in gaining momentum, causing turnovers and creating space for his teammates.

Also, calling Mitchell a smarter Mcginn with less of a shot is bs. All Mcginn has shown is that he can hit and occasionally pot a goal. If youre telling me that Sheppard should replace Mitchell because he doesnt have the "results" you should look at Mcginns results. 25 points in 147 NHL games is not a pretty stat. His AHL stats are no better than Mitchells were either. All Mcginn really has in terms of results is his 1 good year in juniors.

Mitchell has been getting better and better since his injury, while Mcginn has still yet to show anything at the NHL level. Theres really no reason to think that Mcginn is better than Mitchell, or that he has more potential at this point (and considering that Mitchell's development was delayed almost 2 years, age isnt really that great of an argument).
Actually, the people doing it wrong are people like you who assume that results means points when I explicitly laid out my thoughts on Torrey Mitchell in this thread that made no reference to points.

Torrey Mitchell is not an effective third liner. His speed does not create turnovers. He does not kill penalties effectively. He can't win draws. He isn't an effective cycle player because he can't get the puck off the boards w/o turning it over and that's if he's lucky enough to be in a position to protect the puck, which he isn't that good at either. He doesn't do anything that creates energy.

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10-21-2011, 09:35 AM
  #41
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Meh He's well over rated and over paid, never understood the love for him on these boards, I agree with PF I'd much rather Sheppard.

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10-21-2011, 09:47 AM
  #42
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Thats a lot better than Mcginns 25 points in 150 games. And Sheppards 49 points in 224 games.

Mitchells development isnt that much farther than Mcginn's or Sheppards. His potential should not be decided over his age considering that he his development has been put back so much do to injury. He's basically at the development level of a 24 year old and he still has a lot of room to get better.
Not sure how this turned into a Mitchell vs. Sheppard debate but if the Mitchell that played the 2nd half of last season and the one that's shown up for the first 4 games this season continues, I'd be happy if the team re-signs him. And I agree that he's still got room to grow his game, it's great to see him 100% healthy.

As for Sheppard, he hasn't shown me anything in the past that he's just suddenly going to turn it around because he's on a new team. He's still young and can turn into a decent player, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. A LOT of players have been drafted by bad teams w/ "poor development" and still played well. Blaming Sheppard's poor play and attitude/motivation issues entirely on the Wild org. seems like a bit of a cop out to me.


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10-21-2011, 10:34 AM
  #43
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Not sure how this turned into a Mitchell vs. Sheppard debate but if the Mitchell that played the 2nd half of last season and the one that's shown up for the first 4 games this season continues, I'd be happy if the team re-signs him. And I agree that he's still got room to grow his game, it's great to see him 100% healthy.

As for Sheppard, he hasn't shown me anything in the past that he's just suddenly going to turn it around because he's on a new team. He's still young and can turn into a decent player, but I'm not gonna hold my breath. A LOT of players have been drafted by bad teams w/ "poor development" and still played well. Blaming Sheppard's poor play and attitude/motivation issues entirely on the Wild org. seems like a bit of a cop out to me.
That's true, but I would argue (though tough to quantify admittedly) that a lot more players have been drafted by poor organizations that were never successful at the NHL level but would have been with better development. I mean for instance, if you were to give the Florida Panthers 10 1st round picks, and the Sharks 10 first round picks, the odd's are the Sharks are going to turn more of their 10 picks into NHLers than the Panthers will, considerably more I would expect.

It just depends on the player. If it's Crosby, he's going to be successful anywhere because he has so much pure skill and he is such a mature person to start with. If it's Logan Couture or James Sheppard they may turn out to be a great player, but it's going to take some work and dedication on both the player and the orgs part.

My hope is simply that Sheppard is looking at this situation as a chance to be the player he thinks he can be. If he comes here with a fresh attitude, willing to learn, willing to work, the Shark's org is a great place for him to turn it around. If he's still got an attitude, feels entitled to things he hasn't earned, then it will be a failure.

Either way, it was worth a 3rd round pick. We have a lot more chance of turning Sheppard into a top-6 player (or NHLer period, which he already is) then the 3rd might have give us, also in a much shorter time frame.

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10-21-2011, 10:52 AM
  #44
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That's true, but I would argue (though tough to quantify admittedly) that a lot more players have been drafted by poor organizations that were never successful at the NHL level but would have been with better development. I mean for instance, if you were to give the Florida Panthers 10 1st round picks, and the Sharks 10 first round picks, the odd's are the Sharks are going to turn more of their 10 picks into NHLers than the Panthers will, considerably more I would expect.

It just depends on the player. If it's Crosby, he's going to be successful anywhere because he has so much pure skill and he is such a mature person to start with. If it's Logan Couture or James Sheppard they may turn out to be a great player, but it's going to take some work and dedication on both the player and the orgs part.

My hope is simply that Sheppard is looking at this situation as a chance to be the player he thinks he can be. If he comes here with a fresh attitude, willing to learn, willing to work, the Shark's org is a great place for him to turn it around. If he's still got an attitude, feels entitled to things he hasn't earned, then it will be a failure.

Either way, it was worth a 3rd round pick. We have a lot more chance of turning Sheppard into a top-6 player (or NHLer period, which he already is) then the 3rd might have give us, also in a much shorter time frame.
Absolutely agree and I don't really care either way on the trade itself. A 3rd was worth it to see if he can turn it around, if he doesn't and ends up a decent/good AHLer, w/ the Sharks history in the 3rd round, it's probably still an OK move.

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10-21-2011, 11:08 AM
  #45
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just keep him. it's not like we'd be able to sign a Ruutu anyways. the internal replacements aren't looking so good either, so that's another plus for him.

(Yes, I will still complain if he's overpaid.)

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10-21-2011, 05:49 PM
  #46
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Actually, the people doing it wrong are people like you who assume that results means points when I explicitly laid out my thoughts on Torrey Mitchell in this thread that made no reference to points.

Torrey Mitchell is not an effective third liner. His speed does not create turnovers. He does not kill penalties effectively. He can't win draws. He isn't an effective cycle player because he can't get the puck off the boards w/o turning it over and that's if he's lucky enough to be in a position to protect the puck, which he isn't that good at either. He doesn't do anything that creates energy.

Not really sure what to say considering that our views of Mitchells game are polar opposites.

You still havent backed up why you believe that Mcginn is basically the player that Mitchell is. Or that he has more potential... All of the results that i have seen show that Mitchell is the better player, by a fair margin.

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10-21-2011, 06:11 PM
  #47
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Not really sure what to say considering that our views of Mitchells game are polar opposites.

You still havent backed up why you believe that Mcginn is basically the player that Mitchell is. Or that he has more potential... All of the results that i have seen show that Mitchell is the better player, by a fair margin.
Neither are effective offensively or defensively. Both have speed as their best asset but don't use it effectively. Mitchell is a smarter player at this time but he doesn't have the potential McGinn has because McGinn has more skills at his disposal.

The only reason Mitchell is the better player is because he's further along in his development but what he brings to the table is actually quite limited.

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10-21-2011, 06:51 PM
  #48
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Neither are effective offensively or defensively. Both have speed as their best asset but don't use it effectively. Mitchell is a smarter player at this time but he doesn't have the potential McGinn has because McGinn has more skills at his disposal.

The only reason Mitchell is the better player is because he's further along in his development but what he brings to the table is actually quite limited.
Im just not believing that Mitchell is that much farther than Mcginn in terms of development. His injury not only stunted his development for 1 1/2 years, it also put his development back. They each have played a similar number of games aswell.

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10-21-2011, 07:00 PM
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Im just not believing that Mitchell is that much farther than Mcginn in terms of development. His injury not only stunted his development for 1 1/2 years, it also put his development back. They each have played a similar number of games aswell.
Age plays a factor when experience is equal. You're smarter at 26 than at 23.

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10-21-2011, 08:55 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
mitchell has 3 full seasons in the nhl and is 26 years old and has 57 points in 208 games.
Mitchell isn't supposed to be an offensive player. His numbers are fine for a 3rd liner. And their still better than Sheppard's, even though his primary goal isn't to produce offence.


Last edited by SJSharks2010: 10-21-2011 at 09:03 PM.
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