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With Adam's emergence be happy with the center situation. Its what we've wanted.

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Old
10-21-2011, 06:11 PM
  #76
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I believe Adam is exactly the type of center we've wanted and needed for years. He's big, is improving his skating, has good hands, an improving 2-way game, and the face-offs will get there. I think it's also good because it moves roy to the second line, and allows Leino time to find his place/chemistry with linemates. IMO when Hecht comes back I think the forwards should look like this...

Vanek- Adam- Pominville
Ennis- Roy- Stafford
Hecht- Leino- Gerbe
McCormick- Gaustad- Kaleta

-gotta keep the VAP line together. Roy and Stafford have chemistry, and Ennis belongs with them. Leino needs a feisty guy on his line (Gerbe) and someone who is good in their own end (Hecht)
-Leave Boyes as the extra, he's good in case injuries occur but he lacks the desire/ability to drive to the net IMO.
-McCormick-Goose and Kaleta are the "oil and dirt' as Ruff likes to put it.
-I believe those saying Leino needs to be moved from center need to be patient. The guy is a good player, and will find his groove. He needs to find the right linemates and I think Gerbe will be very good with him, especially in terms of Leino's creativity, Gerbe's ability to shoot/drive to the net, and Hecht's ability to find open areas on the ice and play a nice 2-way game.

-Also, ADAM FOR CALDER!!!!!!! GO SABRES!!!!!!

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10-22-2011, 12:39 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
Sorry, I was wrong again. I wasn't wrong in what was said, just who said it. Here is the link: http://www.wgr550.com/pages/10165323.php

Beechsack-
"organizationally we are trying to make our minds up where he will fit positionally, he played A LOT OF LEFT WING THIS YEAR".

Again, to say it is a lock that he will be a center is a stretch. There is still very much a question mark there. He is averaging less than 14:00 per game, his status on the 1st line could change in a heart beat. As soon as that 1st line stops clicking, I expect him to drop down the depth chart pretty quick.

We may not have as large of a hole as we once had down the middle, but I'm sorry, it is not a strong spot yet.
Actually you were not only wrong in what was said (Devine never said he liked Adam on the wing, quite the opposite) but you also completely mispresented the discussion on Adam. You may want to listen to it again.

The discussion on Adam takes place at about the 10min mark until the 11min mark.

Devine mentions the fact that he was with Lindy watching Adam in the AHL playoffs and saw the end to end highlight reel goal he scored. Devine then said guys with Adams size and with the season he just had (AHL ROTY) usually project out to at least a 2nd line center.

-Simon then asked, so you guys see him as more of a center than a wing, right? Devine responds that it depends on who you talk to in the organization. He played a lot of left wing this year. Some in the organization like him at wing but he (Devine) likes him at center but there are some issues defensively. We will see how it goes in camp. Adam has an opportunity at center if he finds a better defensive game (essentially its up to Adam).

An unnamed member(s) of the organization is said to like him at wing not Devine. No one is actually given "credit" for saying they like Adam at wing. There is nothing in Devine's comments that say anything about Adam not being able to play center. Just concern about his defensive game at the position. But more importantly the one guy that matters most, Lindy Ruff, has made his feelings known since last spring. He sees him as a #1/2 center in the NHL. Ruff's thoughts on Adam trump all others since he decides where he plays. Devine also layed out what Adam had to do to make the team as a center in camp. Then Adam went out and did just that.

As for Adam playing some wing last year and getting help with his center defensive duties this year. Thats not unusual at all. The defensive responsibilities of a NHL center can frequently be an issue for young centers in general and with offensive ones in particular. Many young centers, as they transition from one level to another, have been put on the wing initially to ease their transition from juniors to AHL and AHL to NHL. Former Sabres like Peca and CuBro come to mind.


Why are you so hell bent on dismissing the idea of Adam as a center?


Last edited by joshjull: 10-22-2011 at 01:16 PM.
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Old
10-22-2011, 12:42 PM
  #78
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Adam has been taking a beating out there, sliding into the boards hard like every game. He's really earning his pay checks!

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10-22-2011, 01:10 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Not to mention the fact that the issue with him at center is his defensive game not if he has the skating ability or skillls in general to play the position. The defensive responsibilities of a center can frequently be an issue for young centers in general and with offensive ones in particular. Many young centers, as they transition from one level to another, have been put on the wing to ease their transition. Former Sabres like Peca and CuBro come to mind.
I think you hit the nail on the head, it is much easier for a young forward to get broken in along the wing than at center. Luke is and will continue to be a center on this team, both because its his natural position but also because of our depth chart. If he can handle the defensive responsiblies he could be our long term top center.

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10-22-2011, 04:40 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DixonWard15 View Post
I think you hit the nail on the head, it is much easier for a young forward to get broken in along the wing than at center. Luke is and will continue to be a center on this team, both because its his natural position but also because of our depth chart. If he can handle the defensive responsiblies he could be our long term top center.
Especially when being broken in on the top line.

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10-22-2011, 05:33 PM
  #81
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The way Ruff handles young players is absolute GENIUS. I've said it before, that might be his very best attribute as coach. We've seen Stafford a few years ago get called up in the morning from ROCH and burying the OT winner for the Sabres at night. When Pommer and Roy were rookies, Ruff had them playing together on the penalty kill. Look how he got the most out of Gragnani last year in the playoffs. He knows how to trust his young players and allow them to flourish. But at the same time, he knows when tough love is required. I just love it.

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10-22-2011, 05:39 PM
  #82
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Especially when being broken in on the top line.
I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this point has been brought up.

Adam, and the organization as a whole, are in the best possible situation right now. We didn't need, or really expect, him to be a contributor right off the bat this season. I'd assumed he'd start the year in Rochester and we'd find out if he could contribute at the NHL level when someone inevitably got hurt.

But Roy's injury in training camp allowed him to start between Vanek and Pominville. With the way they play together, offensively and defensively, Adam hasn't really had to do anything other than find an open spot on the ice, which I think benefits the other two just as much as it helps him. Roy or Leino would need the puck on their stick, whereas having Adam in the middle allows Vanek to be the primary playmaker (and scorer) on the line.

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10-22-2011, 08:24 PM
  #83
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Actually you were not only wrong in what was said (Devine never said he liked Adam on the wing, quite the opposite) but you also completely mispresented the discussion on Adam. You may want to listen to it again.

The discussion on Adam takes place at about the 10min mark until the 11min mark.

Devine mentions the fact that he was with Lindy watching Adam in the AHL playoffs and saw the end to end highlight reel goal he scored. Devine then said guys with Adams size and with the season he just had (AHL ROTY) usually project out to at least a 2nd line center.

-Simon then asked, so you guys see him as more of a center than a wing, right? Devine responds that it depends on who you talk to in the organization. He played a lot of left wing this year. Some in the organization like him at wing but he (Devine) likes him at center but there are some issues defensively. We will see how it goes in camp. Adam has an opportunity at center if he finds a better defensive game (essentially its up to Adam).

An unnamed member(s) of the organization is said to like him at wing not Devine. No one is actually given "credit" for saying they like Adam at wing. There is nothing in Devine's comments that say anything about Adam not being able to play center. Just concern about his defensive game at the position. But more importantly the one guy that matters most, Lindy Ruff, has made his feelings known since last spring. He sees him as a #1/2 center in the NHL. Ruff's thoughts on Adam trump all others since he decides where he plays. Devine also layed out what Adam had to do to make the team as a center in camp. Then Adam went out and did just that.

As for Adam playing some wing last year and getting help with his center defensive duties this year. Thats not unusual at all. The defensive responsibilities of a NHL center can frequently be an issue for young centers in general and with offensive ones in particular. Many young centers, as they transition from one level to another, have been put on the wing initially to ease their transition from juniors to AHL and AHL to NHL. Former Sabres like Peca and CuBro come to mind.


Why are you so hell bent on dismissing the idea of Adam as a center?
I'm not dead set against it. I just stated the simple fact that there are a lot of question marks with him being a center in the NHL.

Why are you so dead set on him being an NHL center? Because we need one?

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10-23-2011, 08:37 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
I'm not dead set against it. I just stated the simple fact that there are a lot of question marks with him being a center in the NHL.

Why are you so dead set on him being an NHL center? Because we need one?

Our back and forth on Adam all started with your assertion that Adam is still questionable as to what position he projects to play.

You based that on the false idea that Lindy and/or Darcy were asked if Adam would be a center and you asserted they were non committal in their response. That was false so you then attributed that idea to Dineen and later to Devine and neither of them are quoted as saying that.

All that was said (by Devine in an interview pre-draft back in June) was that some unnamed person(s) in the organization like him at wing. Thats it. But Devine, and most importantly Ruff, view him as a center. At the end of the day the guy that matters most is Ruff and thats where he wants him.

You seem to forget he just turned 21yrs old this summer (June) and has a few more years to go to start tapping into his full potential. He has only ONE full professional season under his belt. He has already come a long way with many of the things he needs to address. He took advantage of the opening created by Hecht and Roy being banged up in the preseason to play with Vanek/Pommer. This unexpected stretch with Vanek/Pommer should do wonders for his confidence and further development.


Much of your shots at him are either based on false premises or reaches over normal issues young offensive centers deal with.

1) The false idea that his coaches (Ruff + Dineen) weren't sure if he is a center. Ruff has said since watching him last year in the AHL playoffs that he sees him developing into a big bodied two way #1/2 center.

2) That his lack of faceoff prowess is some sort of indicator of his ability to play center. Malkin is one of the best centers in the NHL and hasn't had a season above 43% on faceoffs and had two sub 40% years for a career average around 41%. Its not uncommon for offensive centers to have faceoff % in the 40s.

3) Because he is getting help with his defensive responsibilities he isn't a center. As I poitned out earlier, thats not uncommon with offensive centers. Many young centers have even started off at wing to adjust to the NHL. Sometimes for a full season or more before going back to center.


There really aren't a lot of question marks about him being a center. There is just the normal issues a young offensive center has to work through before they are NHL ready.


Last edited by joshjull: 10-23-2011 at 08:47 AM.
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Old
10-23-2011, 09:12 AM
  #85
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There really aren't a lot of question marks about him being a center. There is just the normal issues a young offensive center has to work through before they are NHL ready.
I have to agree. I think the criticisms about his position are misplaced. Fans should expect his play to be up and down. He's young, and center is a difficult position to be inexperienced at in terms of the NHL.

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10-25-2011, 01:00 PM
  #86
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With Grags playing again tonight. It makes me wonder if Ruff will also give Adam a long stretch to work through any slumps or struggles.


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10-25-2011, 01:13 PM
  #87
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With Grags playing again tonight. It makes me wonder if Ruff will also give Adam a long stretch of games to work through any slumps or struggles.
this morning he spoke briefly about it on wgr

http://www.wgr550.com/topic/play_win...udioId=5530417

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10-25-2011, 04:45 PM
  #88
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I think if the Sabres win the Stanley cup, people will still complain about the center depth and how it is not good enough to win a Stanley Cup.


Great post!

I'm one of those people, but I would be saying we weren't tough and gritty enough to win a cup. I think I have a complex.

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10-31-2011, 12:03 PM
  #89
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So yeah, no chance Adam ends up on the wing. God forbid I question which position he projects to in the NHL. Clearly there is NO question.

Oh wait, just 10a games in they have already moved him to the wing.

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10-31-2011, 12:11 PM
  #90
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Amazing how quickly things change. Adam being switched to the wing, and Leino being jettisoned back and forth while sporting a paltry 35.6% on faceoffs. Sundher and Catenacci are looking like players, but I still think center is the most glaring need in this draft. I'd love to be able to hang on to our 1st rounder and Calgary's 2nd rounder (likely in the 31-40 range, especially if they finally decide to implement the long-overdue rebuild) and use them both on centers.

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10-31-2011, 12:14 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
So yeah, no chance Adam ends up on the wing. God forbid I question which position he projects to in the NHL. Clearly there is NO question.

Oh wait, just 10a games in they have already moved him to the wing.
More to do with getting Leino going than punishing Adam I would think.

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10-31-2011, 12:18 PM
  #92
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More to do with getting Leino going than punishing Adam I would think.
Yep. Adam was playing fine. This is purely to help Leino break out of his funk. We've seen both Adam and Boyes produce with Vanek and Pominville. If Leino can't get going between two of the NHL's highest scorers, then yikes.

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10-31-2011, 12:54 PM
  #93
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More to do with getting Leino going than punishing Adam I would think.
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Yep. Adam was playing fine. This is purely to help Leino break out of his funk. We've seen both Adam and Boyes produce with Vanek and Pominville. If Leino can't get going between two of the NHL's highest scorers, then yikes.
Personally, I agree that the primary objective of the move is to get Leino going. But I can't help asking why they wouldn't keep Luke at center if (a) they were enamored at how he was playing the position, and (b) center is definitely his long-term position. I mean, Matt Ellis is fine and all, but you don't keep a guy like Matt Ellis at center if you think you'd be stunting one of your top prospect's development.

I think they've still yet to decide whether he's a center or winger.

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10-31-2011, 01:13 PM
  #94
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Why are posters reading so much into this?

Just like I never thought Leino going to wing meant he was done at center. I don't think Adam playing wing with Roy/Stafford means anything beyond he is one of our better offensive players right now and thats the only opening in the top 6.


Its puzzling to me the inability of some to grasp that some players can play more than one position in the NHL. Playing one doesn't preclude them from playing another. Or that line combos are put together based on whats available and whats needed.


If they put Leino at center between Vanek/Pommer to get him going. Then they need a LW with Roy/Stafford. Adam makes the most sense. For starters you're not taking our best center (Roy) away from center. Secondly Gerbe, the only other realistic option, belongs with his current line thats been playing well. FInally Adam showed he could be effective at LW in the minors.

I also don't know how anyone could argue Adam has cooled off. He has a point in each of his last 3 gms after 3gms with no points.

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10-31-2011, 01:15 PM
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So yeah, no chance Adam ends up on the wing. God forbid I question which position he projects to in the NHL. Clearly there is NO question.

Oh wait, just 10a games in they have already moved him to the wing.
Actually your arguement was that he doesn't project to be a center in the NHL.


This move does nothing to prove your point at all.

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10-31-2011, 01:17 PM
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Why are posters reading so much into this?

Just like I never thought Leino going to wing meant he was done at center. I don't think Adam playing wing with Roy/Stafford means anything beyond he is one of our better offensive players right now and thats the only opening in the top 6.


Its puzzling to me the inability of some to grasp that some players can play more than one position in the NHL. Playing one doesn't preclude them from playing another. Or that line combos are put together based on whats available and whats needed.


If they put Leino at center between Vanek/Pommer to get him going. Then they need a LW with Roy/Stafford. Adam makes the most sense. For starters you're not taking our best center (Roy) away from center. Secondly Gerbe, the only other realistic option, belongs with his current line thats been playing weel. FInally Adam showed he could be effective at LW in the minors.


I also don't know how anyone could argue Adam has cooled off. He has a point in each of his last 3 gms after 3gms with no points.
I just don't think they're dead set on him definitely being a center. That's all. I think he'll player center again at some point, too. I think he'll also be switched to the wing again at some point. I'm glad he's versatile, though, and he'll definitely play somewhere in a NHL top-6.

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10-31-2011, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Personally, I agree that the primary objective of the move is to get Leino going. But I can't help asking why they wouldn't keep Luke at center if (a) they were enamored at how he was playing the position, and (b) center is definitely his long-term position. I mean, Matt Ellis is fine and all, but you don't keep a guy like Matt Ellis at center if you think you'd be stunting one of your top prospect's development.

I think they've still yet to decide whether he's a center or winger.
Some of the defensive coverage issues are probably the biggest reason. He's still not a burner and can't afford to coast to his check coming back and has to be stronger on sticks once he's engaged with his man. It wouldn't hurt for him to knock a guy down along the wall either -- far easier to defend someone who's picking themselves up off the ice.

And Roy is starting to play better. If they can get more out of him and Leino while keeping Adam going and perhaps light a fire under Stafford (or get him healthy if that leg is still sore enough that he gimps around like he did against Tampa last week).... their golden. Lots of "ifs".... I know...

Or... what Adam tends to do (shoot from a lot of areas, get to the net) is something Ruff wants him to get back to and is something he thinks could benefit Roy-Stafford right now. If Adam is Luke the Lurker around Theodore on Saturday, when Roy was bombing the net from all over, there was enough trash left around to generate some stuff low.

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10-31-2011, 01:29 PM
  #98
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I just don't think they're dead set on him definitely being a center. That's all. I think he'll player center again at some point, too. I think he'll also be switched to the wing again at some point. I'm glad he's versatile, though, and he'll definitely play somewhere in a NHL top-6.
I agree with you points except the bolded. Ruff sees him as a #1/2 center in the NHL and unless he utterly fails in that role. I can't see Ruff changing his mind and thats the only guy that matters. But if the team doesn't have a spot in the top 6 for him at center because the have other options. Then keeping him there on the LW makes sense.

Its somewhat ironic, given the situation in the summer, that we actually have 3 options for the top 6 center spots right now. Particularly with Hecht out injured at the moment. Right now we have the option of trying to get Leino going at center between Vanek/Pommer. If it doesn't work out we have a viable option to plug back in with Adam. Meanwhile Roy/Stafford get a big body that goes to the net to open up some space for them to do their thing.

Instead of enjoying this some posters (not you) are using it to push agendas about certain players. I see a good situation.


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10-31-2011, 01:36 PM
  #99
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Instead of enjoying this some posters (not you) are using it to push agendas about certain players. I see a good situation.
I'm excited about the show Adam has put on so far, far from what I expected.

That being said, I'm not warm and fuzzy about the middle of the current roster come May...
Maybe by then I will be, but the thought of it scares me now.

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10-31-2011, 01:44 PM
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I'm excited about the show Adam has put on so far, far from what I expected.

That being said, I'm not warm and fuzzy about the middle of the current roster come May...Maybe by then I will be, but the thought of it scares me now.
Understandable.

But I look at it this way.

-Did anyone see Adam coming in putting up 3g 6a 9pts in 10gms centering the top line?
-Did anyone think they would feel comfortable with the idea of Adam as a solid backup plan on the top line if Leino doesnt work out?

I don't think its a stretch to say this move is primarily about Leino and not Adam's play. Which is another surprise, since most thought Adam would play his way off that line.

I guess I'm just excited that we have another top 6 forward with size that goes to the net and is good playing in traffic.

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