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Should Mikko wear letter "C"?

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10-21-2011, 03:48 AM
  #1
EkiE
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Should Mikko wear letter "C"?

Noticed there was interesting thread in wild.nhl.com: "Rip The Damn C Off Koivu's Jersey Already" Captain CLutterbuck time!

http://fans.wild.nhl.com/community/t...ersey-already/

Have to admit I was a bit surprised, never knew MIN fans thought it was bad idea to hand C to him.

Soo, what do you guys think?

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10-21-2011, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EkiE View Post
Noticed there was interesting thread in wild.nhl.com: "Rip The Damn C Off Koivu's Jersey Already" Captain CLutterbuck time!

http://fans.wild.nhl.com/community/t...ersey-already/

Have to admit I was a bit surprised, never knew MIN fans thought it was bad idea to hand C to him.

Soo, what do you guys think?
I think Wild fans change their minds every 8-10 games based on what the team is doing for them lately. Nobody is safe. Two weeks from now people will probably be asking for Cullen to be traded, Butch to have the "C", Koivu to be sent to Houston, and Yeo to be fired.

We're crazy like that. I see some mentioning Cullen as a possibility based on how he's done so far this year. You can't draw a conclusion based on a couple of weeks! It's ridiculous. And Cullen wasn't exactly impressive last year. In fact, he was invisible quite often. It's amazing to me how quickly people are jumping onto the ledges with the overall team. Everyone was so excited....especially after preseason. And now that the roster isn't running out of the gates, they're panicking. This team will be lucky to make the postseason. There's gonna be a lot of growing pains with new vets, new rookies, a new coach, and a new system. So far, EVERY player has had good and bad moments....strong and weak efforts. Patience, people! But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize the team when they pull a "Penguins" game. Guys should be called out. But I'm trying to give them a little longer leash considering the circumstances + how early in the season it is.

Personally, I think he should remain captain. I want to see how he does this year. Yeah, he has his faults. But we don't know the whole story of how he is in the locker room, and I recall a certain team taking a nose dive when they lost him last spring. I haven't heard a single thing from any teammate or coach that suggests he's the problem. And while he's had some weaker efforts so far this year, we are only in the #@$!ing month of October. If people are so quick to judge Cullen based on a couple of weeks, then it's fair to say they are too quick to judge Koivu based on his unsteadiness this year as well. Heck, he looked like the "old" Koivu for part of the 2nd and 3rd period last night...until Heatley sliced him like a turkey.

You guys may want to sit down for this. Honestly, I'm starting to think that Wild and Canucks fans have a little something in common when it comes to their quick, ever-changing, over reactions.


Last edited by NHL1674: 10-21-2011 at 05:31 AM.
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10-21-2011, 05:41 AM
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The only person somewhat worthy of a C on this rag-tag squad is Cullen.


He scores couple goals, and now he's next to God? We should trade him when his value is high, not give him "C". Cullen really doesn't fit to our plans for future.

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10-21-2011, 05:48 AM
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People wanted to get rid of the rotating captaincy, and now they're throwing the letters all over the place. It's too dang early in the season to draw conclusions. They haven't played long enough yet (this year) for any player to be labeled consistent!! I saw Lats brought up too based on his effort so far this year. Ummmm....remember him LAST year? And speaking of last season, if somebody else was better for the job, don't you think they would have taken advantage of Koivu being out last spring by carrying the team through it? I recall Bruno and Madden being mentioned. Did any of them get in their teammates faces out there on the bench and show intense emotion? After all, that's what some are suggesting that Koivu lacks....emotion on the bench. Did anyone step up and create an example out there on the ice by working their tail off? Nope. Instead, nobody took the reigns, and they plummeted.

Good grief!


Last edited by NHL1674: 10-21-2011 at 06:00 AM.
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10-21-2011, 07:12 AM
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Jeez, I really don't think Koivu is the reason the team has played flat out lousy for a while. He's had some bad efforts, but so have a lot of other players on our team.

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10-21-2011, 08:08 AM
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You don't base the "C" on your best player, if that were the case Pavel Bure would have been a Captain everywhere he went. It should be your player that knows the games rules the absolute best so when they are explaining issues with the refs it can be stated their interpretation of the rule and get an explanation as to why something was called the way it was or was not. They are afterall, supposed to be the liaison between the bench/coach and the referee for all things. The next huge motivator is how they talk to the team when they are down by a goal or 5 or up by the same. Do they try to light a fire in the collective ass? Or are they the silent type who don't say a word and just kind of go out there and play like they always played?

None of us are in the lockerroom, ever. No one knows what is taking place and to call for the "C" to be taken because he isn't producing 1-3 pts a game is absolutely stupid and based on knee-jerk reactions and/or fans who don't know wtf they are talking about.

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10-21-2011, 08:44 AM
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How about, instead, we just move Koivu to between Latendresse and Bouchard, since he's played well with both.

And then keep Cullen between Heatley and Setoguchi?

That seems more prudent than blowing a hole in the Wild's lockeroom when they are learning a new system and new coach, but still have a winning record.


Last edited by nickschultzfan: 10-21-2011 at 08:58 AM.
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10-21-2011, 08:46 AM
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Can't say what goes on behind closed doors but I don't think taking the C off his sweater changes anything. He needs to play better. Last year his excuse was offseason surgeries cut into his workouts. This year maybe it's new linemates or partying too much after the WC win? Who knows...he played more like old Mikko the second half of the game, but he's so slow out there I feel like he either needs to be at a lighter weight or work on his strength or technique. He was much better at getting some separation before last year.

I could see either swapping Koivu and Cullen or Butch and Seto. Seto is just lost on that top line. Cullen and Seto could use their speed together really well IMO.

Lats-Koivu-Heatley
Clutter-Cullen-Seto
Bulmer-Brodziak-Bouchard

That would be an interesting lineup.

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10-21-2011, 08:52 AM
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Maybe his military obligations cut into his practice time.

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10-21-2011, 09:37 AM
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People are impatient and mistake the duties of a Captain with scorers. If Koivu had 10 points by now, things would be different.

But serioulsy, there is no other player in the Wild Roster so intense like Koivu. Patience is the key, everything is new now.

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10-21-2011, 09:52 AM
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Did you guys miss the part where he got his face cut open by a skate and finished his shift before going off for his 10 stitches?

He may not be putting up the points yet, but he's still a leader.


As far as giving Lats an "A", which has been brought up in a few places now... I'd actually be OK with that. He's been showing consistency, he's been working hard every night, and more importantly he learned from his laziness last year and has come back a much harder worker for it. I'd be OK with rewarding that.

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10-21-2011, 10:15 AM
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Heh.

It's really all you can say. Don't see how the role of a captain can be judged outside the people around the team consistently. As fans, I don't know how you can really say he shouldn't be the captain given what we know of his actions and how he tends to take charge of the team. Not to mention how vital he is in all different aspects in the game. When Mikko goes into his 'F-U' mode that he shows from time to time, you'll generally see the rest of the team take notice and pick up their game as well. I like that and from my perspective as a fan, that's all I'm privy to in addition to the other things above.

Granted, Koivu's been a bit off to start the season. However, it's a long year. Give it time and he'll come around in my opinion. I don't see how his play should have any effect on whether or not he has the patch, though.

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10-21-2011, 10:28 AM
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I have been very critical of Koivu and his game of late, but what do I or any of us for that matter know what happens in that locker room. You can critique his play and say he should be doing this or that but you can't watch the game on TV and make judgments on leadership ability. If you are its because you see little things he does and then reach and call it leadership or a lack of.

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10-21-2011, 10:29 AM
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I won't blame you guys for taking this with a grain of salt considering where I'm coming from, but...

When the Finnish NT head coach Jukka Jalonen was praised last spring for creating a game plan that finally managed to help Finns capture that second gold, he flat out stated that they shouldn't be crediting him - because it was Koivu who sold it to the team.

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10-21-2011, 10:44 AM
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As a person who still frequents wild.com

I can say that this debate has gone on a lot longer than just these first 7 games of the season. Yes this thread has popped up in the first 7 games but the debate started towards the end of last year especially after the weak excuses he gave about the negative media affecting the team's play. There was discussion about this last year. Personally, I do not think Koivu should be captain. He seemed like a logical choice when he was first given that job but I do not think he deserves to wear the "C" anymore.

I don't care what is said in the locker room. He certainly isn't saying much during the game. He isn't trying to inspire the boys on the bench, preferring to stay quiet and watch. Sorry, leaders should be vocal in my opinion. And before anyone talks about 'leading by example' what example has Koivu set? Making excuses and indifferent play? I don't think I want anyone trying to follow Koivu's example right now.

Personally, I think Yeo should stay within his theme of getting these players to battle for everything all of the time by ridding the team of the "C" altogether and just have 3 assistant captains for now and see who wants it the most. See who pushes for that the most and make them captain. Koivu hasn't done anything that makes me think he automatically has to be the best person for this role on the team. Not even close.

If Koivu wins out in a competition, then give it back but I wouldn't simply let him keep it because he had it before you got there. I am in no way endorsing an "Employee of the Month" club that existed when Jacques Lemaire was the Head Coach, I hated it and I would say I was one of the most vocal detractors of that practice. I thought it was random and completely pointless. Yet I don't think you should just keep a captain forever either. He should be held accountable and should be demonstrating himself to be worthy of that letter each and every game and practice otherwise he isn't the type of role model I'd want any of my players to try to emulate. Just my 2 cents...

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10-21-2011, 11:47 AM
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I can't disagree with anything you said, but it's hard to say the dynamics of a team. The "C" isn't like ice time or PP time or which linemates you have...it's behind the scenes. We saw the team go from playoffs to almost lottery with Koivu out last year. He hasn't been as good as he was a couple years back, but he must have some respect and influence.

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10-21-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemaireisGOD View Post
I can say that this debate has gone on a lot longer than just these first 7 games of the season. Yes this thread has popped up in the first 7 games but the debate started towards the end of last year especially after the weak excuses he gave about the negative media affecting the team's play. There was discussion about this last year. Personally, I do not think Koivu should be captain. He seemed like a logical choice when he was first given that job but I do not think he deserves to wear the "C" anymore.

I don't care what is said in the locker room. He certainly isn't saying much during the game. He isn't trying to inspire the boys on the bench, preferring to stay quiet and watch. Sorry, leaders should be vocal in my opinion. And before anyone talks about 'leading by example' what example has Koivu set? Making excuses and indifferent play? I don't think I want anyone trying to follow Koivu's example right now.

Personally, I think Yeo should stay within his theme of getting these players to battle for everything all of the time by ridding the team of the "C" altogether and just have 3 assistant captains for now and see who wants it the most. See who pushes for that the most and make them captain. Koivu hasn't done anything that makes me think he automatically has to be the best person for this role on the team. Not even close.

If Koivu wins out in a competition, then give it back but I wouldn't simply let him keep it because he had it before you got there. I am in no way endorsing an "Employee of the Month" club that existed when Jacques Lemaire was the Head Coach, I hated it and I would say I was one of the most vocal detractors of that practice. I thought it was random and completely pointless. Yet I don't think you should just keep a captain forever either. He should be held accountable and should be demonstrating himself to be worthy of that letter each and every game and practice otherwise he isn't the type of role model I'd want any of my players to try to emulate. Just my 2 cents...
"He didn't lead in the manner I wanted him to, when I wanted him to."

You could have saved a lot of words by typing just that. The problem with your logic is that you seem to assume that there's one way to lead, and that's your way. Well, that's not even close to true, so the second you drop that assumption, the argument evaporates.

On a bigger note, you're acting like changing the assignment for captains is some sort of meaningless behavior outside of the effects upon "leadership" on the team. Stripping a player of the C (and no matter how many fancy words you want to use, that's what it would be) is no painless endeavor. Put simply, you don't create a massive rift between the team and your player who's signed for the foreseeable future simply because you don't like the volume on the bench.

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10-21-2011, 12:48 PM
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Simple fact of the matter is that it must be looked into at some point. It's a general consensus that Koivu hasn't been as good as he was two/three years ago. Leaders lead by example, something Koivu hasn't been doing lately. Leaders lead teams to the playoffs, something he hasn't done. Leaders take over games and win games.

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10-21-2011, 12:50 PM
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Before you take away someone's captaincy, you need to have a replacement choosen.

And, I'm sorry, but who else is it going to be? Schultz? Bouchard? Cullen? Heatley?

None of those are better options than Koivu. If you want to light a fire under him, knock him down to the 2nd line.

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10-21-2011, 01:00 PM
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He scores couple goals, and now he's next to God? We should trade him when his value is high, not give him "C". Cullen really doesn't fit to our plans for future.
He is a Minnesotan...

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Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Heh.

It's really all you can say. Don't see how the role of a captain can be judged outside the people around the team consistently. As fans, I don't know how you can really say he shouldn't be the captain given what we know of his actions and how he tends to take charge of the team. Not to mention how vital he is in all different aspects in the game. When Mikko goes into his 'F-U' mode that he shows from time to time, you'll generally see the rest of the team take notice and pick up their game as well. I like that and from my perspective as a fan, that's all I'm privy to in addition to the other things above.

Granted, Koivu's been a bit off to start the season. However, it's a long year. Give it time and he'll come around in my opinion. I don't see how his play should have any effect on whether or not he has the patch, though.
Seriously. It's not like this is an American Idol style competition.

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10-21-2011, 01:01 PM
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10-21-2011, 01:03 PM
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The way I see it...there's a lot of problems with this team. I'm not happy with Koivu's game right now, but we just got a new coach and I don't want to see the team making panic moves.

IMO, I'd give Yeo three solid years. He's already shown more than Richards. The team needs stability. This year we're waiting for troops. Next year we will be bringing kids into the team. The year after they should make the playoffs.

I'd also give Koivu at least two years for the same reason. Changing the letters makes no sense right now. See how the team does in March, or next year December.

I hope I'm not seen as a hypocrite...I railed against Koivu last night along with Seto, but I don't want to see them traded. I want to see their ice time and roles changed, at least temporarily, if they aren't playing well. IMO a good coach does that. Lemaire wouldn't throw Seto over the boards for 20 minutes if he was playing like garbage for two weeks. Hell, one bad shift with Lemaire you were stuck to the pine. Too much in that direction, but he's a legendary coach.

Same thing with the captain letters. It's mostly symbolic, but all that changing the "C" would do right now is create a lot of confusion and send some really bad signals to the team. They might be fragile. That might cause a lot of unintended consequences. I think Yeo's on the right track...don't punish the guys per se but work them hard in practice for their shortcomings.

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10-21-2011, 01:06 PM
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Did Koivu have off-season surgery? If so, I'm sure he's not 100% yet. Give it time. He's too competitive to be content with his game.

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10-21-2011, 01:08 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by countrygentleman View Post
Simple fact of the matter is that it must be looked into at some point. It's a general consensus that Koivu hasn't been as good as he was two/three years ago. Leaders lead by example, something Koivu hasn't been doing lately. Leaders lead teams to the playoffs, something he hasn't done. Leaders take over games and win games.
Leader doesn't mean that, in any way.

Leaders can take over games and win them.

Leaders can lead teams to the playoffs.

Leaders can lead by example.

But none of these things are necessary conditions of being a leader. Leadership isn't something that's necessarily displayed on the ice. Leadership is about keeping egos in check. It keeps teammates fighting for each other, even if they don't like each other. It has the team working towards team goals. It's keeping up the spirits of the recently demoted 4th liner, causing him to work harder to get back on the third line instead of moping about in his sorry. It's driving the guy on IR to get back on the ice to compete with his teammates. It's keeping panic out when the cards turn against everyone.

Sure, it can be scoring the game winner after the other team ties it up late. It can be single handedly taking over a game, and making a playoff push. But it doesn't have to be. It can be keeping up spirits on the bench when all looks lost. It can be creating a catalyst for the team to rally around. It can be teaching a rookie when to pass and when to shoot.

I'm not arguing whether or not Koivu actually does these things. I'm just pointing out how laughably inaccurate some of these claims are. Gionta put up 46 points in each of the last two years, but I don't see the Habs fans (possibly the quickest to cry out!) calling for his head. Ryan Callahan doesn't take over games or put up the points, and hasn't led his team to the playoffs. Should Rangers fans be outraged? Rick Nash can take over games, but has a career total of 3 points in the post season. He leads a team that has never so much as won a single post season game. Does that mean he should be stripped of the C? Leadership isn't a stat. All of its most important measures come from the locker room. Fans never get to see what happens with the players where leadership truly begins. Sure, when there are major problems (like in Philly last year) the captain's lack of credibility can be plain to see. Where there's smoke there's usually fire, but a little morning fog has rolled in here and suddenly there's people speed dialing 911?

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10-21-2011, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by squidz View Post
Leader doesn't mean that, in any way.

Leaders can take over games and win them.

Leaders can lead teams to the playoffs.

Leaders can lead by example.

But none of these things are necessary conditions of being a leader. Leadership isn't something that's necessarily displayed on the ice. Leadership is about keeping egos in check. It keeps teammates fighting for each other, even if they don't like each other. It has the team working towards team goals. It's keeping up the spirits of the recently demoted 4th liner, causing him to work harder to get back on the third line instead of moping about in his sorry. It's driving the guy on IR to get back on the ice to compete with his teammates. It's keeping panic out when the cards turn against everyone.

Sure, it can be scoring the game winner after the other team ties it up late. It can be single handedly taking over a game, and making a playoff push. But it doesn't have to be. It can be keeping up spirits on the bench when all looks lost. It can be creating a catalyst for the team to rally around. It can be teaching a rookie when to pass and when to shoot.

I'm not arguing whether or not Koivu actually does these things. I'm just pointing out how laughably inaccurate some of these claims are. Gionta put up 46 points in each of the last two years, but I don't see the Habs fans (possibly the quickest to cry out!) calling for his head. Ryan Callahan doesn't take over games or put up the points, and hasn't led his team to the playoffs. Should Rangers fans be outraged? Rick Nash can take over games, but has a career total of 3 points in the post season. He leads a team that has never so much as won a single post season game. Does that mean he should be stripped of the C? Leadership isn't a stat. All of its most important measures come from the locker room. Fans never get to see what happens with the players where leadership truly begins. Sure, when there are major problems (like in Philly last year) the captain's lack of credibility can be plain to see. Where there's smoke there's usually fire, but a little morning fog has rolled in here and suddenly there's people speed dialing 911?
This!

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