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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract?

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Old
12-07-2011, 09:36 PM
  #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok so then what are you saying? Because I am saying if he wins a Cup with bad stats he is worth it, and you said no he is only worth it if he is a contributing factor to winning the Cups (i.e. stats). I just don't know how a team could win a Cup and you still be upset about things like guys being overpaid.
What do stats have to do with it? I haven't mentioned stats at all. Either he'd be a vital factor in winning the Cup or he wouldn't be. If he isn't then he just isn't worth the contract...and 1 Cup win alone probably wouldn't do enough to justify it since he could easily turn into a Huet-style anchor thanks to the insane length of his contract.

Like I said, Huet has won a Cup...it didn't justify his contract. Just like Shelley winning a Cup won't justify his. A cup alone doesn't erase a horrid contract. Bryz is going to have to be much better overall and maintain it for several years. He was brought here to be this team's great goaltender, the new Bernie Parent, and he is paid accordingly. If he doesn't do that he isn't worth it.

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12-07-2011, 09:38 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by RevUpThoseFlyers View Post

If he played this bad and still won a cup, he still wouldn't have been worth his contract.
and if he wins i CUP, i don't care about the $

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12-07-2011, 09:59 PM
  #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
What do stats have to do with it? I haven't mentioned stats at all. Either he'd be a vital factor in winning the Cup or he wouldn't be. If he isn't then he just isn't worth the contract...and 1 Cup win alone probably wouldn't do enough to justify it since he could easily turn into a Huet-style anchor thanks to the insane length of his contract.
Ok you never said "stats" precisely, but if he is a vital factor in winning the Cup, he would have to have good stats, otherwise he wouldn't be a vital factor in winning the Cup. And if you disagree with that then you are agreeing with me that just playing well enough to win would make him worth it.

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Like I said, Huet has won a Cup...it didn't justify his contract. Just like Shelley winning a Cup won't justify his. A cup alone doesn't erase a horrid contract. Bryz is going to have to be much better overall and maintain it for several years. He was brought here to be this team's great goaltender, the new Bernie Parent, and he is paid accordingly. If he doesn't do that he isn't worth it.
I guess we'll have to disagree then, because IMO, a Cup erases everything. If you are on a team that wins a Cup, I think pretty much by default you are worth your contract. Your job is to win a Cup. If you win a Cup, you have done your job. Again, I'm not sure what more a player can do besides win a Cup to justify a contract. It's certainly not the only way to earn your contract, but are you really going to complain about the Bryz contract if we win a Cup this year but he has bad numbers? What did it hurt if at the end of the season we have a Cup?

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12-07-2011, 10:06 PM
  #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Ok you never said "stats" precisely, but if he is a vital factor in winning the Cup, he would have to have good stats, otherwise he wouldn't be a vital factor in winning the Cup. And if you disagree with that then you are agreeing with me that just playing well enough to win would make him worth it.
There's a difference between stealing games and not losing them. See: Michael Leighton, Montreal Series. Just because his stats might be good doesn't mean he was an important, vital reason for winning a Cup

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12-07-2011, 10:15 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
There's a difference between stealing games and not losing them. See: Michael Leighton, Montreal Series. Just because his stats might be good doesn't mean he was an important, vital reason for winning a Cup
Ugh, the Leighton vs. Montreal shutout debate again? Can't you come up with some new material at least? I guess you will just never be happy. You keep thinking of things to be mad about though. If he wins a Cup, I'll be psyched and glad to have him at any price for any stats as long as he hoists that Cup over his head in June. You are of the camp that winning a Cup is not enough. To each his own, I suppose.

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12-07-2011, 10:44 PM
  #431
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So...theoretically, if he puts up an .885 all 9 years he's here, except for one year where he's tolerable enough in the playoffs and the team wins it all without any real help from Bryzgalov, you would declare that signing a success?

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12-07-2011, 10:59 PM
  #432
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If this team wins the Stanley cup it's because they manage to put up 4-5 goals to the other teams 3-4.

That's how they're winning right now.

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12-07-2011, 11:07 PM
  #433
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If anything the Flyers I thought should have gone after Lehtonen when he was on the block.....always liked him.

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12-08-2011, 07:17 AM
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
So...theoretically, if he puts up an .885 all 9 years he's here, except for one year where he's tolerable enough in the playoffs and the team wins it all without any real help from Bryzgalov, you would declare that signing a success?
Yes. I'd rather have one Cup over the next ten years than ten Vezina Trophies. Obviously, it would be great to have both, but at the end of the day, if the Flyers win a Cup every player on the team has earned his contract. It is as simple as that. I guess we just have two different philosophies.

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12-08-2011, 07:49 AM
  #435
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Feel bad for the Flyers fans since Bryzgalov was ten times ahead of one of the worst backups ever, Barbera. Bryz was really a king in Phoenix, not with Rinne, Thomas, Quick, Lundqvist but above average. I'd describe him as backup material as of now.

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12-08-2011, 08:11 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yes. I'd rather have one Cup over the next ten years than ten Vezina Trophies. Obviously, it would be great to have both, but at the end of the day, if the Flyers win a Cup every player on the team has earned his contract. It is as simple as that. I guess we just have two different philosophies.
I think that is complete and total BS, and a massive cop out. Theoretically, if the 13th forward on the Stanley Cup Champs didn't play a single game all year, did he earn his contract? If Bryzgalov were to completely fall off, lose his starting job to Bob, and we win the cup, did he earn it?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with judging a single player within the context of HIS play and HIS contract. His team's success has nothing to do with it.

Claude Giroux is an absolute steal right now at $3.75. If we were to miss the playoffs (something that would probably be considered a huge team failure), does that mean he didn't earn his contract? I'd guarantee every single GM in the league would cut off a finger to get Giroux at that price; but how could that be, if he's not "earning his contract"?

Winning is not the end all be all determining factor of a contract, because an individual can only control so much of their team and their team's play.

Edit: And for a more real life example...if I'm the world's worst employee. I come in late everyday, do zero work, spend all my time on HF, leave early, take extra vacataion days; and yet my company is killing it all year, am I earning my salary? My boss certainly wouldn't think so. He would probably fire me and either increase the profit margin by saving costs, or hire someone that would do something, and increase revenue.


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12-08-2011, 08:14 AM
  #437
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We have no choice but to play him and play him as much as possible hoping that he will turn it around.

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12-08-2011, 11:33 AM
  #438
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Well DUH9 covered it better than I would have.

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12-08-2011, 11:37 AM
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I think that is complete and total BS, and a massive cop out. Theoretically, if the 13th forward on the Stanley Cup Champs didn't play a single game all year, did he earn his contract? If Bryzgalov were to completely fall off, lose his starting job to Bob, and we win the cup, did he earn it?
Yes, they both earn it. 13th forward did his job, he's there to be the 13th forward. If he never plays a game, he still has done his job. If Bryz falls off and is the backup, he's still a part of the team and if they can win the Cup he has earned his contract. Now, if he is backup and they don't win the Cup, then no he absolutely has not earned his contract. Again, the goal of hockey is to win the Cup. If you pay a guy a ton of money and they win the Cup, how has he not earned his contract? He didn't have good stats? Well that sucks, but they get that trophy and that banner, which is all that matters.

Quote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with judging a single player within the context of HIS play and HIS contract. His team's success has nothing to do with it.
That's true, and I have no problem with that, unless the team is winning a Cup. If you are winning Cups, everything is going right and every player is earning their contract. If they weren't, they wouldn't be winning Cups. Again, the goal is to win cups, not have the best highlights, contracts, and stats.

Quote:
Claude Giroux is an absolute steal right now at $3.75. If we were to miss the playoffs (something that would probably be considered a huge team failure), does that mean he didn't earn his contract? I'd guarantee every single GM in the league would cut off a finger to get Giroux at that price; but how could that be, if he's not "earning his contract"?
I never said that. I have said from the beginning, you can earn your contract from doing one or the other or both. If you tear it up and win 10 Hart/Vezinas with no Cups, you have still earned your contract. If you "suck" but still win 10 Cups, you have earned your contract. If you do both, jackpot. And there is obviously some in between as well. But what we are talking about it is a hypothetical where Bryz plays poorly but wins a Cup. In that case, he earned his contract by playing well enough to win.

Quote:
Winning is not the end all be all determining factor of a contract, because an individual can only control so much of their team and their team's play.
That's true, but if the team wins, what more do you want? How is a player not earning his contract if the ultimate and only goal is achieved?

Quote:
Edit: And for a more real life example...if I'm the world's worst employee. I come in late everyday, do zero work, spend all my time on HF, leave early, take extra vacataion days; and yet my company is killing it all year, am I earning my salary? My boss certainly wouldn't think so. He would probably fire me and either increase the profit margin by saving costs, or hire someone that would do something, and increase revenue.
First of all, you can't really analogize hockey to any "real world" profession. But even if you want to this analogy is different. If Bryz isn't showing up for work or refusing to play or purposely losing games, then we have a different story than him just not performing well (but still well enough to win). As for maybe a better analogy, if the goal of a company (NHL team) is to sell the most widgets in history in January 2012 and nothing more (win the Cup) and they achieve that goal, they aren't going to be upset about the guy who sold the least amount.

That's why you can't really analogize hockey to a real world thing. There is one goal and one goal only in hockey. If you achieve that goal, nothing else matters. In business/industry/trade/whatever you want to call it, that is not the case.

In the end, this is just an opinion thing anyway. If they win a Cup and he plays like ****, I'll be happy as a clam, others will want Homer fired and Bryz tarred and feathered. To each his own.

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12-08-2011, 11:38 AM
  #440
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A player can be on a winning team without earning his contract.

Bryz is currently doing that, for example.

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12-08-2011, 11:42 AM
  #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
A player can be on a winning team without earning his contract.

Bryz is currently doing that, for example.
You are 100% correct. Not disputing that. Right now. But if they win the Cup, I'll be singing a different a tune.

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12-08-2011, 11:44 AM
  #442
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You are 100% correct. Not disputing that. Right now. But if they win the Cup, I'll be singing a different a tune.
If they win a Cup without Bryz earning his contract, will you?

If Bobrovsky suddenly becomes awesome and takes over as starter (unlikely, of course), will you? If so, that doesn't make a shred of sense.

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12-08-2011, 11:47 AM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
If they win a Cup without Bryz earning his contract, will you?

If Bobrovsky suddenly becomes awesome and takes over as starter (unlikely, of course), will you? If so, that doesn't make a shred of sense.
We've been over this, man. I'm not going to keep saying the same thing over and over again so you can respond the exact same way over and over again. Just read the above post and responses to your old posts.

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12-08-2011, 11:49 AM
  #444
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It's like saying the guy in a school group who didn't do a shred of work while the rest of the group slaved away to earn an A deserves it just as much as the others.

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12-08-2011, 12:06 PM
  #445
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Imagine how good we will be once Bryz (hopefully) starts playing well? He is still 9-1-1 in his last 11 starts

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12-08-2011, 12:08 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's like saying the guy in a school group who didn't do a shred of work while the rest of the group slaved away to earn an A deserves it just as much as the others.
Not really. Like I said, you can't analogize hockey to something simple because it is unique (besides other sports). In hockey, you are going to have guys who aren't playing no matter what. That is how it works. If its Bryz, or Bob, or a 13th forward or a 7th dman or someone else, they will earn their contract, even if they play two games a piece. There is a difference between not playing and not doing playing well. If Bryz gets benched he's still going to play for the Flyers and get in the game. In a group if a person doesn't do work and they get an A, no they don't deserve it. If they do poor quality work but well enough to still get an A, they deserve it. Once again, I'm not sure how you could ask that person for more. If Bryz is refusing to play, then he won't earn his salary, just like if a kid in a group refuses to do work and they get an A, he will be undeserving. Likewise, if Bryz plays poorly but they win a Cup he earned his contract, just like a kid who does poorer quality work but well enough to get an A, he still deserves the A.

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12-08-2011, 12:54 PM
  #447
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I was trying to avoid this thread, but......OK. Couple of things:
Top cap hit for goalies:
1. Rinne, Pekka G NAS 29 2 $7,000,000
2. Lundqvist, Henrik G NYR 29 6 $6,875,000
3. Ward, Cam G CAR 27 6 $6,300,000
4. Miller, Ryan G BUF 31 5 $6,250,000
5. Backstrom, Niklas G MIN 33 4 $6,000,000
6. Kiprusoff, Miikka G CGY 35 6 $5,833,333
7. Bryzgalov, Ilya G PHI 31 9 $5,666,667
8. Huet, Cristobal G CHI 36 4 $5,625,000
9. Luongo, Roberto G VAN 32 12 $5,333,333
10. Brodeur, Martin G NJD 39 6 $5,200,000

Bryz is currently ranked 7th amont goalies in cap hit per year. Stats wise, he is a top 10 save percentage goalie in each of the past 2 years and 3 of the last 4. His top 5 in shutouts each year, his GAA and wins are good. In fact, if you rank goalies based on the key stats over the past few years, Bryzgalov would NOT fall below 7th.

He deserves to be paid like a top 10 goalie, someone would have paid him 5+ million a year.

The term of 9 years was given to allow him to be the 7th-10th best paid goalie in the league. Most thought he was signing for 7 million a year somewhere (Rinne money) but instead the Flyers gave him term.

So - I feel the term and money for Ilya Bryzgalov is OK. I understand the deal.

HOWEVER - I don't believe in paying goalies! I agreed with the previous Flyer philosophy of keeping your goalie costs low. I personally don't think Luongo, Brodeur, Rinne, Kipper, Ward or any of the other top goalies are honestly worth that money. I would much prefer to be in the middle, paying a middle tier goalie 3 million per year then paying an ELITE goalie 5.5+ million per.

If you have a strong defensive team with ELITE level talent able to score, you DO NOT need an ELITE goalie. Chicago proved it. Detroit proved it. The Flyers proved it.

What Philly needed to do was "upgrade" in net. They choose to push their chips ALL IN, when a simple raise would have been the correct play. They didn't need to jump on Bryz, they could have waited for free agency and got an upgrade. The fail back plan was Bob, who was still pretty good. I wanted Vokoun-Bob.

To me, Bryz is worth his contract, I just wish another team was paying it.

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12-08-2011, 01:00 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Yes, they both earn it. 13th forward did his job, he's there to be the 13th forward. If he never plays a game, he still has done his job. If Bryz falls off and is the backup, he's still a part of the team and if they can win the Cup he has earned his contract. Now, if he is backup and they don't win the Cup, then no he absolutely has not earned his contract. Again, the goal of hockey is to win the Cup. If you pay a guy a ton of money and they win the Cup, how has he not earned his contract? He didn't have good stats? Well that sucks, but they get that trophy and that banner, which is all that matters.



That's true, and I have no problem with that, unless the team is winning a Cup. If you are winning Cups, everything is going right and every player is earning their contract. If they weren't, they wouldn't be winning Cups. Again, the goal is to win cups, not have the best highlights, contracts, and stats.



I never said that. I have said from the beginning, you can earn your contract from doing one or the other or both. If you tear it up and win 10 Hart/Vezinas with no Cups, you have still earned your contract. If you "suck" but still win 10 Cups, you have earned your contract. If you do both, jackpot. And there is obviously some in between as well. But what we are talking about it is a hypothetical where Bryz plays poorly but wins a Cup. In that case, he earned his contract by playing well enough to win.



That's true, but if the team wins, what more do you want? How is a player not earning his contract if the ultimate and only goal is achieved?



First of all, you can't really analogize hockey to any "real world" profession. But even if you want to this analogy is different. If Bryz isn't showing up for work or refusing to play or purposely losing games, then we have a different story than him just not performing well (but still well enough to win). As for maybe a better analogy, if the goal of a company (NHL team) is to sell the most widgets in history in January 2012 and nothing more (win the Cup) and they achieve that goal, they aren't going to be upset about the guy who sold the least amount.

That's why you can't really analogize hockey to a real world thing. There is one goal and one goal only in hockey. If you achieve that goal, nothing else matters. In business/industry/trade/whatever you want to call it, that is not the case.

In the end, this is just an opinion thing anyway. If they win a Cup and he plays like ****, I'll be happy as a clam, others will want Homer fired and Bryz tarred and feathered. To each his own.
You are the most ideological person I've ever (internet) met.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. An individual can single handedly earn his contract despite his team's efforts; yet an individual cannot single handedly NOT earn his contract despite his team's efforts.

"Man, you are were awesome! Too bad the team sucked."
"Man, you were terrible! Thank god the team was awesome."

When it should be:
"Man, you were awesome!"
"Man, you were terrible!"
"The team sucked."
"The team was awesome."

Four entirely separated statements.

You have this fantastical view, that even having a $5.9 million dollar backup is absolved by winning as long as he contributes even the most minute thing towards that team.

What if PH signed my cat to be the backup goalie for $5.9 million, and my cat never plays, and we win. Did my cat earn the contract? I would argue that the team won DESPITE my cat not earning his contract. Maybe, just maybe, we would have been better off signing a real backup goaltender, to some sort of market value.

Oh but no, the butterfly effect! Even though the cat didn't play, if the cat WASN'T there, Sidney Crosby wouldn't have sneezed due to his cat allergy while skating by the bench, which led to a turnover and a goal. This is without even getting into the locker room boost that a cat brings.

You live in a fantasy world man. Life doesn't work this way.

And you CAN analogize hockey to life. We have jobs, THEY have jobs. The only difference is that their "company's" goal is more clearly defined than ours. No matter how you slice it, it doesn't make sense to pay your Janitor as if he is a VP, even if he is a really, really, good janitor.

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12-08-2011, 01:11 PM
  #449
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I'm with Chris in a lot of ways. I feel like a great goalie is worth what you have to pay them. However, if you can't get a great goalie (top 10 to 12 in the league), the difference between tier two and three isn't that big, so you might as well look for the best value. I still think it's better to get a top ten guy and pay him then try to skimp and make it up spending elsewhere though.

I say that to say this: Chris you're out of your mind if you don't think Pekka Rinne and Henrik Lundqvist are worth their contracts.

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12-08-2011, 01:16 PM
  #450
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I'm not even one that hates the Bryz deal haha. I was just so thrilled to have a real goalie. I certainly didn't think it was a bargain, but I wasn't really upset about it.

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