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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract?

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12-08-2011, 02:17 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
If anything the Flyers I thought should have gone after Lehtonen when he was on the block.....always liked him.
Like him a lot, too.
But at the time he was available he was really struggling and the last thing the Flyers needed at that time and pretty much all the time since then was another unproven goaltender.

Bryz will turn it around. And when he does, he's better than Lehtonen.

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12-08-2011, 02:27 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by dookie88 View Post
Bryz will turn it around. And when he does, he's better than Lehtonen.
He's been better than Lehtonen to date, but Bryz's best is not as good as what Lehtonen is doing right now. Lehtonen is making good on all the talent that made Atlanta draft him as high as they did. His positioning and anticipation look decisive precise right now. His movement looks as crisp and fast as it ever has and it's absolutely phenomenal for a goalie of his size (in the same class as Quick and Varlamov but he's 2 or three inches taller than them and heavier too).

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12-08-2011, 02:31 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I'm with Chris in a lot of ways. I feel like a great goalie is worth what you have to pay them. However, if you can't get a great goalie (top 10 to 12 in the league), the difference between tier two and three isn't that big, so you might as well look for the best value. I still think it's better to get a top ten guy and pay him then try to skimp and make it up spending elsewhere though.

I say that to say this: Chris you're out of your mind if you don't think Pekka Rinne and Henrik Lundqvist are worth their contracts.
That's not Chris?

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12-08-2011, 02:41 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by MrHockey1982 View Post
Imagine how good we will be once Bryz (hopefully) starts playing well? He is still 9-1-1 in his last 11 starts
This is what I like, if 9-1-1 is bad, I can't wait till the good Bryz shows up. He is making some big saves at important times to keep games close.

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12-08-2011, 02:48 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
You are the most ideological person I've ever (internet) met.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. An individual can single handedly earn his contract despite his team's efforts; yet an individual cannot single handedly NOT earn his contract despite his team's efforts.
Yes, that's correct. I'm not too sure why that is a problem to you.

"Man, you are were awesome! Too bad the team sucked."
"Man, you were terrible! Thank god the team was awesome."

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You have this fantastical view, that even having a $5.9 million dollar backup is absolved by winning as long as he contributes even the most minute thing towards that team.
Toward the team winning the Cup. To over simplify this, I'll say there are two ways to "earn" your contract. Win a Cup or perform well individually.

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What if PH signed my cat to be the backup goalie for $5.9 million, and my cat never plays, and we win. Did my cat earn the contract? I would argue that the team won DESPITE my cat not earning his contract. Maybe, just maybe, we would have been better off signing a real backup goaltender, to some sort of market value.
I live in a fantasy world? You are talking about cats playing goalie. Obviously that is different. If you signed a ****** goalie though, like let's say Michael Leighton, to a $5.9 million contract, and he is hoisting that Cup in June, then yes he earned his contract.

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Oh but no, the butterfly effect! Even though the cat didn't play, if the cat WASN'T there, Sidney Crosby wouldn't have sneezed due to his cat allergy while skating by the bench, which led to a turnover and a goal. This is without even getting into the locker room boost that a cat brings.
Again, with a cat it doesn't work. But yes, the butterfly effect would come in to play with say, Vokoun at $1.5 mil. The extra $4 mil could have gone somewhere else that would have had a negative effect on the team. That isn't really a tough concept to grasp is it? Especially since everyone on here thinks Homer has no idea what he is doing, what makes you think that $4 mil would have been put to good use? Homer does things right when it helps your (not you, because you seem to be at least less fired up about Homer) argument though.

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You live in a fantasy world man. Life doesn't work this way.
So changing goalies and players wouldn't have an effect on the team? Interesting theory.

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And you CAN analogize hockey to life. We have jobs, THEY have jobs. The only difference is that their "company's" goal is more clearly defined than ours. No matter how you slice it, it doesn't make sense to pay your Janitor as if he is a VP, even if he is a really, really, good janitor.
You can try to make analogies, but nothing outside of another sport will work. Yes, we have jobs and they have jobs, but the parameters, roles, goals, etc of those jobs are extremely different. A company is never going to go "all in" to make the most profits in one year but sacrifice the future of the company, while a sports team may. No company is going to pay a janitor a substantial salary, but an NHL player may pay a substantial salary to a backup goalie, 7th dman, 13th forward, etc who sees very limited ice time. The differences go on and on.

Once again though, this is simply an opinion question. There is no right or wrong answer. If I think winning a Cup makes him worth it, you may think that is outrageous, but I don't. If you think that in order to be worth a contract the goalie has to win a Vezina (or whatever it is you are looking for), I may not agree.

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12-08-2011, 02:49 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Not really. Like I said, you can't analogize hockey to something simple because it is unique (besides other sports). In hockey, you are going to have guys who aren't playing no matter what. That is how it works. If its Bryz, or Bob, or a 13th forward or a 7th dman or someone else, they will earn their contract, even if they play two games a piece. There is a difference between not playing and not doing playing well. If Bryz gets benched he's still going to play for the Flyers and get in the game. In a group if a person doesn't do work and they get an A, no they don't deserve it. If they do poor quality work but well enough to still get an A, they deserve it. Once again, I'm not sure how you could ask that person for more. If Bryz is refusing to play, then he won't earn his salary, just like if a kid in a group refuses to do work and they get an A, he will be undeserving. Likewise, if Bryz plays poorly but they win a Cup he earned his contract, just like a kid who does poorer quality work but well enough to get an A, he still deserves the A.
That's ridiculolus. If someone does poor quality of work, they do not deserve an A. It is everyone else's work that is making up for his poor work. If it weren't for everyone else, he would not have had the A. It's not as if this is a solo project, that is so easy I can slack and still get an A.

To keep with the group analogy:

It's more like if there is a group paper, and people volunteer for 4 roles, write the intro, write the conclusion, write the body, write the title. Clearly writing the title, is the easiest, and most unimportant part, but it's needed. More than likely, writing the body is the most demanding, because of sheer quantity. 4 people volunteer and everyone agrees upon everyone's role.

At this point, if the "title guy" writes the title, he did his job, he deserves the A that the paper got. He did less; he barely did anything in fact, but he did what was asked of him, and what was expected of him.

This situation is more like if the "body guy" starts writing the body and it is so bad, the rest of the group makes him stop. The "title guy" then has to step up and write the body, while "body guy" is now merely responsible for the title.

"Title guy" has more than earned his A (contract) because he stepped up and did way more than what his role required, more than what everyone had agreed upon. "Body guy" has flat out failed. He volunteered to take a particular role, and failed at it. Someone else had to do his job, while he was given another of lesser importance. He, quite simply, has not done what was expected of him at the beginning of the project (the body).

Now it's group evaluation time (anyone else have to do those in college? haha), and what am I going to write as "title guy"?

Dear Professor Portman (yes, Natalie Portman is my Professer),
I believe that Sammy (Intro), Wolfgang (Conclusion), and myself (Title) deserve A's for our report on Mallard Ducks. We all put forth the effort that was needed, and completed the roles that were expected of us.

As for Judas (Body), I believe he should get a C. Truth be told, I had to go above and beyond what was required of me in order to complete Judas' part and see this project through to completion. Judas agreed to write the body, but in fact, the quality was so poor, the group had to step in. Simply put, he didn't complete what was expected of him. He did however, write the title, which is why I don't want him to get an F. There was a reason why we had all agreed upon these roles (ahem, market values to fill specific jobs), and I had to miss my Eagle Scout trip in order to take on this additional work.

Sincerely,
DUHockey9

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12-08-2011, 03:00 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
This is what I like, if 9-1-1 is bad, I can't wait till the good Bryz shows up. He is making some big saves at important times to keep games close.

Yep. Not to mention getting a fully healthy squad with Pronger in as well.

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12-08-2011, 03:15 PM
  #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
That's ridiculolus. If someone does poor quality of work, they do not deserve an A. It is everyone else's work that is making up for his poor work. If it weren't for everyone else, he would not have had the A. It's not as if this is a solo project, that is so easy I can slack and still get an A.

To keep with the group analogy:

It's more like if there is a group paper, and people volunteer for 4 roles, write the intro, write the conclusion, write the body, write the title. Clearly writing the title, is the easiest, and most unimportant part, but it's needed. More than likely, writing the body is the most demanding, because of sheer quantity. 4 people volunteer and everyone agrees upon everyone's role.

At this point, if the "title guy" writes the title, he did his job, he deserves the A that the paper got. He did less; he barely did anything in fact, but he did what was asked of him, and what was expected of him.

This situation is more like if the "body guy" starts writing the body and it is so bad, the rest of the group makes him stop. The "title guy" then has to step up and write the body, while "body guy" is now merely responsible for the title.

"Title guy" has more than earned his A (contract) because he stepped up and did way more than what his role required, more than what everyone had agreed upon. "Body guy" has flat out failed. He volunteered to take a particular role, and failed at it. Someone else had to do his job, while he was given another of lesser importance. He, quite simply, has not done what was expected of him at the beginning of the project (the body).

Now it's group evaluation time (anyone else have to do those in college? haha), and what am I going to write as "title guy"?

Dear Professor Portman (yes, Natalie Portman is my Professer),
I believe that Sammy (Intro), Wolfgang (Conclusion), and myself (Title) deserve A's for our report on Mallard Ducks. We all put forth the effort that was needed, and completed the roles that were expected of us.

As for Judas (Body), I believe he should get a C. Truth be told, I had to go above and beyond what was required of me in order to complete Judas' part and see this project through to completion. Judas agreed to write the body, but in fact, the quality was so poor, the group had to step in. Simply put, he didn't complete what was expected of him. He did however, write the title, which is why I don't want him to get an F. There was a reason why we had all agreed upon these roles (ahem, market values to fill specific jobs), and I had to miss my Eagle Scout trip in order to take on this additional work.

Sincerely,
DUHockey9
Again, this is not a perfect analogy because in hockey, you are always going to have a player backing up another so if one falters someone else steps up. And once again, this only an opinion. I understand you don't think he'll earn his contract if he plays the way he is playing and wins a Cup. That is fine. I was simply expressing my opinion that he will be worth it.

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12-08-2011, 03:17 PM
  #459
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It doesn't need to be perfect. The point is that if someone isn't earning his contract, he flat out isn't earning it. It doesn't matter if the rest of the team succeeds despite that fact.

The fact that the team continues to win doesn't justify Shelley's contract, for instance.

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12-08-2011, 03:21 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It doesn't need to be perfect. The point is that if someone isn't earning his contract, he flat out isn't earning it. It doesn't matter if the rest of the team succeeds despite that fact.

The fact that the team continues to win doesn't justify Shelley's contract, for instance.
In your mind. In my mind if the team is getting W's and hoisting cups, every player is worth every cent.

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12-08-2011, 03:23 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
In your mind. In my mind if the team is getting W's and hoisting cups, every player is worth every cent.
They haven't been hoisting Cups. They haven't done that in quite some time.

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12-08-2011, 03:31 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They haven't been hoisting Cups. They haven't done that in quite some time.
It is way too early to judge Bryz imo, but at 5.6 mill per year he is getting paid to win, and in the the last 10 games he is winning. I will gladly take 8-1-1 with his numbers over 4-5-1 and better individual numbers.

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12-08-2011, 03:36 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
They haven't been hoisting Cups. They haven't done that in quite some time.
That's right. Remember in my 427 other posts on this topic I agreed with you about that but you keep bringing it up like I am not agreeing with you?

Maybe now I'll respond and say if they win a Cup he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins it doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won.

We have a few hours before the Pens game so I'll keep going back and forth if you want. Maybe suggest a different analogy? Or no, say that you know for a fact if we traded for Roloson we would have won the Cup in 2010. Or that you know Vokoun would have signed here for less than Bryz and that extra money would lead us to a Cup. Or what about the Michael Leighton vs. Montreal shutout debate that you tried to start up again last night, that's a classic.

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12-08-2011, 03:41 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
It is way too early to judge Bryz imo, but at 5.6 mill per year he is getting paid to win, and in the the last 10 games he is winning. I will gladly take 8-1-1 with his numbers over 4-5-1 and better individual numbers.
In those past 10 games he has .833, .864, .667, and .871. That's unimpressive. He's been letting in soft goals through that stretch, and there's only one game where I think he really kept the Flyers in it (the second PHX game). He's been inconsistent and let in a lot of soft goals. In some of those games the Flyers got the W despite his poor performance. He isn't winning so much as the team is. The offense has been hot recently. If it cools down and he keeps letting in these soft, crappy goals we are going to be in trouble. Deja vu.

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12-08-2011, 03:43 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That's right. Remember in my 427 other posts on this topic I agreed with you about that but you keep bringing it up like I am not agreeing with you?

Maybe now I'll respond and say if they win a Cup he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins it doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won. Then I can say if he does he'll be worth it. Then you can say no he won't because he sucks. Then I can say if he wins he doesn't matter. Then you can say he hasn't won.

We have a few hours before the Pens game so I'll keep going back and forth if you want. Maybe suggest a different analogy? Or no, say that you know for a fact if we traded for Roloson we would have won the Cup in 2010. Or that you know Vokoun would have signed here for less than Bryz and that extra money would lead us to a Cup. Or what about the Michael Leighton vs. Montreal shutout debate that you tried to start up again last night, that's a classic.
I guess you're out of ideas/are backed into a corner. This is the best you've got?

Face it...a player who isn't playing up to their expensive contract just isn't worth it, no matter how you cut it. Then again, you're absolutely OK with crappy asset management.

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12-08-2011, 03:45 PM
  #466
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I’m not a goalie expert, but to me it looks like Bryzgalov plays way too deep on his net. He is not nearly as aggressive as I think he should be. Another thing that I notice is that he likes to take stabs at pucks coming on net instead of trusting his positioning to make the save. I saw an instance where Vanek took a high rising slap shot point blank and no screen. Instead of Bryzgalov trusting his positioning and coming out still to challenge the shot, he sits back and tries to glove the puck mid air. To me that’s poor mechanics. He’s never going to be able to see and pick up the puck because it’s coming so fast at him and by raising his arm he is vulnerable to the puck sliding under them. If he comes out aggressively, square to the shooter and isn’t flailing all over the place he has a much better chance to stop those pucks. Thankfully that shot went high and wide.

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12-08-2011, 03:48 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
In those past 10 games he has .833, .864, .667, and .871. That's unimpressive. He's been letting in soft goals through that stretch, and there's only one game where I think he really kept the Flyers in it (the second PHX game). He's been inconsistent and let in a lot of soft goals. In some of those games the Flyers got the W despite his poor performance. He isn't winning so much as the team is. The offense has been hot recently. If it cools down and he keeps letting in these soft, crappy goals we are going to be in trouble. Deja vu.
True, but if you say the offense may cool off, then Bryz can heat up. Let's worry about that when it happens. We all knew that the team would struggle defensively, and that is def making it harder on Bryz.

The soft goals worry me too, but people claiming Bob is better is absurd. He let's a ton of questionable goals in (Zero Shutouts) all the time, so people claiming he needs to start is silly.

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12-08-2011, 03:56 PM
  #468
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True, but if you say the offense may cool off, then Bryz can heat up. Let's worry about that when it happens. We all knew that the team would struggle defensively, and that is def making it harder on Bryz.

The soft goals worry me too, but people claiming Bob is better is absurd. He let's a ton of questionable goals in (Zero Shutouts) all the time, so people claiming he needs to start is silly.
Yeah, Bob isn't really a better option. The ideal option is Bryz getting his game together.

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12-08-2011, 04:01 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Again, this is not a perfect analogy because in hockey, you are always going to have a player backing up another so if one falters someone else steps up. And once again, this only an opinion. I understand you don't think he'll earn his contract if he plays the way he is playing and wins a Cup. That is fine. I was simply expressing my opinion that he will be worth it.
That's actually not my opinion. I'm fine with Bryz. I was commenting more generally about the idea that a team winning the cup means every individual "earned their contract".

This was really my only comment in regards to Bryz in this thread; and as you can see, I'm cool with it all.

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If the question is "will he ever be worth his cap hit in any one season?" the answer could very well be yes. If he has a fantastic, Vezina type year, yea you might be able to justify that much money.

If the question is "will he ever be worth his ENTIRE contract?" the answer is no. It's just next to impossible that he plays at a high enough level for that long.

That said, I'm not one that is anti-Bryz. I'm thrilled to have him in the fold and to not have to worry about the goaltending. That said, it clearly isn't a good contract. It was the price they wanted to pay to never have to worry about it for the forseeable future.

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12-08-2011, 04:07 PM
  #470
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I should also clarify that my only complaint with Bryz is that he is currently not playing up to his level. If he starts playing like a 5 million dollar goalie then I'll be much happier with him. I don't think because he sucks now he will always and forever suck for the duration of his contract.

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12-08-2011, 04:13 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I guess you're out of ideas/are backed into a corner. This is the best you've got?

Face it...a player who isn't playing up to their expensive contract just isn't worth it, no matter how you cut it. Then again, you're absolutely OK with crappy asset management.
Ugh. Yeah, you caught me. My opinion about something is clearly wrong and yours is right. I have backed myself into a crazy corner! And I am ok with "crappy" asset management. Look at all these assets the Flyers don't have: Couturier, Schenn, Read, Bob, Giroux, JVR, Simmonds, Voracek, Harry Z, etc. I wish they still had Upshall and Nodl and that third round pick they traded away four years ago!

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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
That's actually not my opinion. I'm fine with Bryz. I was commenting more generally about the idea that a team winning the cup means every individual "earned their contract".

This was really my only comment in regards to Bryz in this thread; and as you can see, I'm cool with it all.
Fair enough.

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12-08-2011, 04:57 PM
  #472
achdumeingute
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Bryz would have great stats were he playing for terry Murray. Goaltending stats are very team based. I don't get the complaints about the goals he's giving up. Nor did I really last year when people were complaining about bob. Bob wasn't remotely our failure point last year.

3 of the 4 BUF goals last night were not stoppable. The 3rd goal he had a good angle (I still Think Roy tipped it) and was square to vanek.

He plays deep because he's "plays" big and isn't athletic at all. There isn't much to shoot at on him. He's been solid IMO, I feel much more comfortable with him vs when bob plays. Bob isn't a compact goalie yet.

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12-08-2011, 09:41 PM
  #473
MrHockey1982
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Guess what boys? Bryz just stole us a game! Looks like he just needs to get into a groove

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Old
12-08-2011, 09:54 PM
  #474
sobrien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I should also clarify that my only complaint with Bryz is that he is currently not playing up to his level. If he starts playing like a 5 million dollar goalie then I'll be much happier with him. I don't think because he sucks now he will always and forever suck for the duration of his contract.
agreed. Besides the part of him sucking now. I think he's playing well, but not where he can be.

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12-08-2011, 09:56 PM
  #475
funghoul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHockey1982 View Post
Guess what boys? Bryz just stole us a game! Looks like he just needs to get into a groove
Damn straight. he is and will be worth every cent. Ha! This thread is a pisser.

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