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Time for a new coach?

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Old
10-26-2011, 04:58 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by 94Obsession View Post
If Tom Renney's the measuring stick around here, this organization is in trouble.

Tom Renney didn't accomplish much as far as i'm concerned. He accomplished some. Like getting us back to respectability, but that doesn't mean, or give him a free pass as far as being a "good coach that accomplished "A LOT" more than Tortorella" goes. Let's be honest, if Renney was still here, players like Redden would still probably be here. Tortorella has weeded out players that don't play hard or players that the game has passed by awhile ago. If it wasn't for Tortorella, we wouldn't be MUCH MORE comitted to youth. If it wasn't for Tortorella telling that maniac, and moron, Sather to basically not "**** up" last off-season, by making stupid trades or by trading away certain youth, he would've probably traded them away by now.

And Tortorella's teams are "much deeper", Bleed Ranger Blue?! LMFAO..... That is one of the most asinine statements i've ever heard in a very long time, and there's plenty here on this Rangers board of HF every day!!!

Must've missed that 2008 team under Renney where we actually had 2 top lines. Even the 2007 team was much deeper than anything we've had with Tortorella.

As far as Torts getting "super angry" with players when they make a mistake, ruckus, that's the way it should be, and it shouldn't be tolerated. I think you are exagerating about Torts getting "super angry" whenever a player makes a mistake. It's only when the player makes a very bad mistake that that happens.

I swear, some of you that are getting on Torts for benching, getting angry, or even disciplining players because they make a mistake or mistakes is really absurd. These things should not be tolerated.

And yes, he is the best coach we've had here since Keenan. I find it funny, how back then no one got all up in arms over those kinds of things. I seem to remember Keenan even benching Messier, and Leetch in Game 4 against the Devils that year, while pulling Richter out of the game for Glen Healy. And this was all in a VERY important playoff game mind you. I can't imagine that if Tortorella got that chance today in the playoffs, and he did something like that, the posters on this board would have a level 12 meltdown.

And so what if it has to do with more about the fact that this organizations, overall futility, over the fact that the Rangers can't ever seem to get it right, not just the last 14 years, but seemingly forever. This crap has been going on for decades and years.

What does that say for the organization that we all root for and love so much? Not a whole lot.

Like Torts said, he's not gonna apologize for how this team got the 8 points these first 7 games, and rightfully so.

Until he's fired, for whatever reason, let the guy do his damn job.

To answer your first sentence...if Tom Renney is the measuring stick around here...TORTS is in trouble.

As far as the bolded part...he HAS accomplished more than Tortorella. And to the rest of that paragraph I say....based on what? You're completely speculating about things with absolutely no idea of any of it. Hate to tell you, but that's not a solid way to justify your stance. Whether or not you want to believe it, this organization started to committing to youth during the lockout. Just because Torts is the coach now when the rewards of that are finally being reaped says absolutely nothing about him. And for the millionth time, Renney implemented plenty of youth. Cause it was Nigel Dawes and not Derek Stepan that's Renney's fault and a notch in Torts' belt? Give me a break.

I'm not exaggerating about anything with Torts. The guy is an ass. He's acted like one since the day he got here. Why on earth should any player on this team respect the guy when he's a blatant hypocrite? What shouldn't be tolerated is a coach who benches guys for one mistake when they've been consistently good for long stretches. What shouldn't be tolerated is a coach that thinks the only way he can get through to his players is by making them "learn their lesson". Again, there is a TIME and PLACE for those things. And that time and place is not always.

So basically you like the guy. That's what you're saying. Cause nothing that you've said here really does anything to make me change my mind about the guy. There isn't anything of validity here.

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10-26-2011, 05:13 PM
  #302
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There have been some good points made on both sides of this argument... but I can guarantee you this:

If Sean Avery was still on the team and even producing a point here or there, 90% of the anti-Torts crowd wouldn't have a damn thing to say.

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10-26-2011, 05:16 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
There have been some good points made on both sides of this argument... but I can guarantee you this:

If Sean Avery was still on the team and even producing a point here or there, 90% of the anti-Torts crowd wouldn't have a damn thing to say.
You think 90% of his detractors are attributed to his handling of Avery? I don't even think it's 10%. It's just another reason of many I think.

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10-26-2011, 05:23 PM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
There have been some good points made on both sides of this argument... but I can guarantee you this:

If Sean Avery was still on the team and even producing a point here or there, 90% of the anti-Torts crowd wouldn't have a damn thing to say.
I can guarantee you this. 100% of the anti-Torts crowd would still be complaining unless Sean Avery could make the team get more then 19 shots on goal a game, give all 4 lines the consistency they have been missing, and make the team score more then 2 goals a game. This crowd is not upset about Avery. They have brought up legit points of the his 2 plus years as coach of this team. Lack of tactical strategy in-game, mind-boggling line combos, mind-boggling player benchings, select accountability, Tortorella being a hypocrite. I could be missing some things but these are what everyone is upset about, not Sean Avery. At least reasonable posters.

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10-26-2011, 05:23 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
You think 90% of his detractors are attributed to his handling of Avery? I don't even think it's 10%. It's just another reason of many I think.
My personal opinion? There are fans here that like Avery to a degree that puts him above the team in general. And the fact that Torts was hired despite being outspoken about not liking Avery, combined with his recent demotion to Hartford has caused those people to become outspoken, and I mean OUTSPOKEN critics of a pretty damn good coach.

When Prucha was demoted and eventually traded back in the day, a similar thing happened, though not quite to this degree, as far as I can recall.

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10-26-2011, 05:27 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by mattyd99 View Post
I can guarantee you this. 100% of the anti-Torts crowd would still be complaining unless Sean Avery could make the team get more then 19 shots on goal a game, give all 4 lines the consistency they have been missing, and make the team score more then 2 goals a game. This crowd is not upset about Avery. They have brought up legit points of the his 2 plus years as coach of this team. Lack of tactical strategy in-game, mind-boggling line combos, mind-boggling player benchings, select accountability, Tortorella being a hypocrite. I could be missing some things but these are what everyone is upset about, not Sean Avery. At least reasonable posters.
Totally agree. Trying to pin this all on the Avery situation is minimizing or invalidating some very valid points as well as deflecting. It's just easier to say "you're all pissed about Avery".

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10-26-2011, 05:30 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattyd99 View Post
I can guarantee you this. 100% of the anti-Torts crowd would still be complaining unless Sean Avery could make the team get more then 19 shots on goal a game, give all 4 lines the consistency they have been missing, and make the team score more then 2 goals a game. This crowd is not upset about Avery. They have brought up legit points of the his 2 plus years as coach of this team. Lack of tactical strategy in-game, mind-boggling line combos, mind-boggling player benchings, select accountability, Tortorella being a hypocrite. I could be missing some things but these are what everyone is upset about, not Sean Avery. At least reasonable posters.
I agree with you on most of your points, Matty. Torts does things that don't make sense to me sometimes. But it's not like you're making any argument that ANY mediocre team would make about their coach.

Go ahead, start a thread on the main board and ask what people hate about the head coach... you'll see exactly what you just posted. Torts has a decent team to work with, with some serious injuries on the backend. I just think that we haven't seen the best from this team yet, and a lot of it has to do with a crazy schedule, injuries, and a new #1 center.

And seeing people pining for Renney and claiming he was such a great coach are the same people who were calling for his head years ago, which bothers me. That's hypocrisy, Matty.

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10-26-2011, 05:38 PM
  #308
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“We’re used to it, but it’s not like [Tortorella] switched everything up when we were going well,” said Callahan. “Let’s face it.”

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz1bvjiL8aH

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10-26-2011, 05:43 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
I agree with you on most of your points, Matty. Torts does things that don't make sense to me sometimes. But it's not like you're making any argument that ANY mediocre team would make about their coach.

Go ahead, start a thread on the main board and ask what people hate about the head coach... you'll see exactly what you just posted. Torts has a decent team to work with, with some serious injuries on the backend. I just think that we haven't seen the best from this team yet, and a lot of it has to do with a crazy schedule, injuries, and a new #1 center.

And seeing people pining for Renney and claiming he was such a great coach are the same people who were calling for his head years ago, which bothers me. That's hypocrisy, Matty.
I agree with you on all this I just think the majority of people are over the Avery thing. I'm in the middle on all of this, not a big fan of Torts but I want to give him some more time.

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10-26-2011, 06:00 PM
  #310
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For Renney detractors: Which one of his squads greatly underperformed?

None.

For Torts detractors: Same Question

Same answer.

Blame belongs upstairs not on the coaches.

The only coaching that has amazed me recently is on the Penguins. How does a team lose Crosby and Malkin and continue to win?

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10-26-2011, 06:06 PM
  #311
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Soon after I joined this board, half the posts of every losing GDT were rampant demands to get that horrid gum-chewing, emotionless, heartless Tom Renney out of NY, and get a real motivator who could light the fire under the player's bellies, and actually express some emotion when things were going poorly.

In fact, one poster actually complained when Naslund scored a game tying goal in what turned out to be Renney's last game, because he was miffed that Tom's job might've been saved.

Enter Torts, who his first day made a stink about not stepping on the logo which everybody fawned over.

2 and a half down years the line, and some of the exact same fans are now saying we need to fire the "clown" coach who only knows how to motivate and nothing about tactics.

The only conclusion that I can come to here is that people just like to moan about the coach, because they are the very easiest scapegoat in all of sports. Things not going exactly as you had hoped? Somebody needs to get fired, I guess. I suppose its a good thing NYR management is not as fickle.

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10-26-2011, 06:29 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
I agree with you on most of your points, Matty. Torts does things that don't make sense to me sometimes. But it's not like you're making any argument that ANY mediocre team would make about their coach.

Go ahead, start a thread on the main board and ask what people hate about the head coach... you'll see exactly what you just posted. Torts has a decent team to work with, with some serious injuries on the backend. I just think that we haven't seen the best from this team yet, and a lot of it has to do with a crazy schedule, injuries, and a new #1 center.

And seeing people pining for Renney and claiming he was such a great coach are the same people who were calling for his head years ago, which bothers me. That's hypocrisy, Matty.
Do you think generalizing proves your point or something?

First you make the Avery comment. While I'm one of the biggest Avery supporters around here, to insinuate for a second that I care more about that than the New York Rangers is insane. Should Avery be on this team? Absolutely IMO. Is that my number one issue with John Tortorella? Not even close. All the other things I've mentioned in here are what bothers me. And I don't think I've been talking about Avery at all.

Second, now you're generalizing that the same people who are "pining" for Renney are the ones who wanted his head? Uhh...do you care to provide any evidence of that? I'm sure you don't. You'd rather just generalize. I was always a big Renney supporter and thought he got a raw deal.

So because back then there was a thread where people wanted Renney fired, and now there's a thread where people want Torts fired, that means that the people who wanted Renney fired are the same people here now who are saying he's better than Torts? Is that how that works?

Cut the crap with the generalizing BS. If you've got evidence of a poster that fits that description post a quote and take it up with them. Don't come out with all this crap like what you're saying here is legitimate, cause it's not. I would know that cause I'm someone who has been in this thread the whole time and don't fall under your little generalizations.

I've also never said that Torts should be fired. Just cause I'm posting in the thread someone started about him and I'm not a huge fan doesn't mean I think the guy should go right this second. All I've been doing is airing my grievances. But again, it's easier to generalize.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRangerfan View Post
“We’re used to it, but it’s not like [Tortorella] switched everything up when we were going well,” said Callahan. “Let’s face it.”

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz1bvjiL8aH

What? You couldn't find the quotes from last year where Gabby was begging for consistent linemates?

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10-26-2011, 06:32 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
What? You couldn't find the quotes from last year where Gabby was begging for consistent linemates?
Not my job to make your point, the article I quoted and linked to was from this week. Last year is last year.

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10-26-2011, 06:35 PM
  #314
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Not my job to make your point, the article I quoted and linked to was from this week. Last year is last year.
Ha so you use a quote from our first year Captain. One that doesn't even prove they aren't bothered by the line changes.

To be fair, Torts has been pretty consistent with the lines at the start of games. He just can't watch a scoreless period without doing something about it.

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10-26-2011, 06:48 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
Ha so you use a quote from our first year Captain. One that doesn't even prove they aren't bothered by the line changes.

To be fair, Torts has been pretty consistent with the lines at the start of games. He just can't watch a scoreless period without doing something about it.
So what your saying is Callahan isn't ready to be Captain?

Early in the season, Brad Richards remarked that when the team wasn’t scoring goals in Europe, the lines had to be changed:

You can’t have no goals and five, six chances in a game and not try to change something up. That’s just how it is.”

“Ideally you’re winning and you keep your line together and everybody’s flowing and happy, but over 82 games, that doesn’t always happen,” Richards said. “It just so happened that the first couple games we weren’t clicking, and we had different looks.

Richards went on to say,”That’ll happen a lot again this year. That’s the type of coach he is.”

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10-26-2011, 06:54 PM
  #316
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Soon after I joined this board, half the posts of every losing GDT were rampant demands to get that horrid gum-chewing, emotionless, heartless Tom Renney out of NY, and get a real motivator who could light the fire under the player's bellies, and actually express some emotion when things were going poorly.

In fact, one poster actually complained when Naslund scored a game tying goal in what turned out to be Renney's last game, because he was miffed that Tom's job might've been saved.

Enter Torts, who his first day made a stink about not stepping on the logo which everybody fawned over.

2 and a half down years the line, and some of the exact same fans are now saying we need to fire the "clown" coach who only knows how to motivate and nothing about tactics.

The only conclusion that I can come to here is that people just like to moan about the coach, because they are the very easiest scapegoat in all of sports. Things not going exactly as you had hoped? Somebody needs to get fired, I guess. I suppose its a good thing NYR management is not as fickle.
On some level, I agree with this but, at least from my point of view, the issue is still motivation. I wrote earlier (not sure if it's in this thread or not) that my biggest problem with Torts is that he used to be able to go into intermission, scream a bit, and get this team to come out blazing the next period. The reason this (admittedly very young) season has worried me is that it doesn't seem to be working anymore. I can only assume that Torts is still screaming between periods, but the same half-assed team keeps on coming out the next period.

This is the danger of hiring any coach who only has one approach. Renney was too "nice," and the players eventually took advantage of that. He had to go. Torts is too much of a taskmaster, and the players seem to be ignoring him. If that doesn't change, it may be time for Torts to go. They need to find a coach who knows when to be nice and when to rip into his players. Our last two coaches have been too far to each of these extremes, and that's just not sustainable over more than a few seasons.

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10-26-2011, 06:57 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Not only is the bolded part a bunch of ******** drivel, but I'd love to know what you're comparing Renney's tenure against. Tortorella's?

Cause when you match their Ranger resume's together after 3 years on the job, Renney comes out on top in a no-contest. And thats with Tortorella having the luxury of deeper teams.
I don't give a crap about comparing their won lost records. The fact remains that Tom Renny was fired as coach because the players were tuning him out. He's been a coach of 3 teams so far and has been fired from 2 of those teams. Tom Renny is at the bottom of the heap when ranking coaches in this league. If you think Renny is a better coach than Torts, you need to get a clue!

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10-26-2011, 07:06 PM
  #318
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I hope the next game is a win so this thread can die.

Also stop bashing Renney, we have had far worse coaches than him over the years. Jagr and Renney will always hold a place for me because they ended the dark years, as it has now come to be known.

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10-26-2011, 07:33 PM
  #319
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Re: Jagr vs. Gaborik.

At this point in time, I'd argue that Gaborik is the superior player; obviously, Jagr blows him away in the overall career department, but that's irrelevant when discussing these two players' capabilities as of now.

As for Tortorella being the best coach this team has had since Keenan...I'd say that speaks more to the organization's overall futility than Tortorella's ability as a coach.
Agree. The Rangers organization has set the standard for futility especially since Savior took over as g.m. in July, 2000. They could have gotten it right by hiring Torts as the coach after he took over for Muckler in Apr, 2000. Then Savior took over as g.m. and hired Ron Low as the coach( Lol!!). Insofar as Gaborik vs Jagr goes, Jagr is 40+ now and I'll bet he still puts up similar numbers with Phila this year to Gaborik

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10-26-2011, 07:45 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I hope the next game is a win so this thread can die.

Also stop bashing Renney, we have had far worse coaches than him over the years. Jagr and Renney will always hold a place for me because they ended the dark years, as it has now come to be known.
I agree on both counts. Renney helped us get back to respectability. And I salute him for that.

I just, personally, didn't always like playing that 1-4, and for me personally the Rangers had become a boring team because they relied too heavily on playing for the shootout. Something I can't stand.

As far as Renney goes, i've always said he's a good coach for teams that don't have expectations, and is a nice guy. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Renney bashing, I think, will stop only when the people that didn't want him fired in the first place, and still talk about him till this very day when referring to Tortorella most of the time, and no, i'm not generalizing you, ruckus , but that's what most of them do, not you in particular. When bashing Tortorella, they, for the most part always bring up Renney. Which in turn, makes the pro-Tortorella crowd, or people like me bring up Renney in return and always point out Renney's faults, while the other side that is anti-Torts, point out his faults, and vice versa.

And to get back to what you said earlier, ruckus, I do like Tortorella as a coach. I think he's great with youth, and helps mold these players for the future whether he's here or not. I am ok with the job Tortorella has done so far with the players. I want this team to win, and take the next step too, obviously, but this team ain't winning now, or a cup anytime soon, at least not this year. If they make to the 2nd round, i'll be ok with that.

Is he the perfect coach? No. But, just because the guy acts like an "ass" to you and many other people that are anti-Torts, it really has nothing to do with winning games or coaching. There are plenty of worse coaches, or in sports than Torts. Torts is at least honest, and straight foward in his answers. He doesn't give these cliche'd answers either. So that IMO, is another reason why I like him. If we are sucking, he'll say so. Where, even though it has nothing to do with winning games, or coaching, like I said, Renney would always give these one worded politically correct answers, and I just couldn't listen to it after awhile anymore. Not saying that's why I wanted him gone.

I, personally, pretty much just wanted Renney gone in February 2009 because I was tired of seeing the 1-4, playing for shootouts, and after that 10-2 game.

I think Torts is a good coach, while Renney is an ok coach, IMO.

I'm sure lots of people would agree with me, while a lot of other people would disagree though.

Look, i'm sure we all want the same thing from the Rangers, and that's to, hopefully, win another Stanley Cup soon. But I realize it's a work in progress, maybe that's why I won't or refuse to get on Torts yet. I'm a very patient person. So my posts usually reflect of a wait and see approach.

Hope the Rangers get it turned around tomorrow night, and the rest, of the season.

Let's Go Rangers!!!

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10-26-2011, 07:49 PM
  #321
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Jagr would've been ideal as a second line wing on the Rangers - taking pressure off the top line, logging 16+ minutes a night, and not having to be the #1 guy anymore. He's pretty much averaging a point a game so far. He's probably got more points than our second line does combined.

The Renney/Tortorella debate can go on forever, but you can't tell me that the 2007-8 NYR weren't a lot more talented (Forwards particularly) than even our current team. Drury & Gomez with 58 and 70 points, Jagr, Shanahan with 20+ goals, Straka with 40+ points, Dubi, Callahan, Avery (57 games, 33 points), Sjostrom & Betts checking line/killing penalties. Throw in Dawes, Prucha, and Hossa to round that out.

D: Rozy, Girardi, Staal, Tyutin, Mara, Malik/Strudwick. 2 out of 6 are the same. Tyutin and Rozy (38 points) were decent that year - as was Mara. Strudwick and/or Malik are Emminger level.

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10-26-2011, 08:17 PM
  #322
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On 1050 today.

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10-26-2011, 08:21 PM
  #323
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Ugh he needs to stop juggling lines, and preventing the chemistry and gelling...

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10-26-2011, 08:26 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
To answer your first sentence...if Tom Renney is the measuring stick around here...TORTS is in trouble.

As far as the bolded part...he HAS accomplished more than Tortorella. And to the rest of that paragraph I say....based on what? You're completely speculating about things with absolutely no idea of any of it. Hate to tell you, but that's not a solid way to justify your stance. Whether or not you want to believe it, this organization started to committing to youth during the lockout. Just because Torts is the coach now when the rewards of that are finally being reaped says absolutely nothing about him. And for the millionth time, Renney implemented plenty of youth. Cause it was Nigel Dawes and not Derek Stepan that's Renney's fault and a notch in Torts' belt? Give me a break.

I'm not exaggerating about anything with Torts. The guy is an ass. He's acted like one since the day he got here. Why on earth should any player on this team respect the guy when he's a blatant hypocrite? What shouldn't be tolerated is a coach who benches guys for one mistake when they've been consistently good for long stretches. What shouldn't be tolerated is a coach that thinks the only way he can get through to his players is by making them "learn their lesson". Again, there is a TIME and PLACE for those things. And that time and place is not always.

So basically you like the guy. That's what you're saying. Cause nothing that you've said here really does anything to make me change my mind about the guy. There isn't anything of validity here.
Do consider Torts an ass because he isn't warm and fuzzy with the media? If not, why then? Because he benches players for shifts for mindless penalties or for not playing hard or because he constantly juggles lines sometimes unnecessarily? Did I hit on any of the reasons as to why you consider him an ass?
There is nothing of validity in the post by 94 Obsession that you responded to? Looks to me like that post made a lot of valid points about Tom Renny's coaching reign while he was here. The things that stick out in my mind about Renny was no accountability whatsoever from the players(he kept playing Malek when everybody-fans, media, etc was screaming for him to be a healthy scratch) and a complete breakdown in communication between him and Drury, Gomez, Jagr and a few other players. The team was headed into the toilet when Savior mercifully canned him and replaced him with Torts. The team desperately needed and still needs a strong personality as coach to keep the proverbial torch lit under some players rear ends.

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10-26-2011, 08:30 PM
  #325
Drewbackatu*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
For Renney detractors: Which one of his squads greatly underperformed?

None.

For Torts detractors: Same Question

Same answer.

Blame belongs upstairs not on the coaches.

The only coaching that has amazed me recently is on the Penguins. How does a team lose Crosby and Malkin and continue to win?
Isn't it amazing how fans are calling for Torts head and the "Teflon Idiot" upstairs gets an "El Paso?". Blysma is obviously a really good coach but the Pens still have terrific talent despite no Sid and Malkin(for a lot of the time).

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