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Time for a new coach?

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Old
10-23-2011, 08:35 PM
  #151
stan the caddy
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
So Sather has shown improvements in recent years by letting Gordie Clarke draft for him(since 2007 I believe?). What great picks has Gordie Clark made for us since then? Perhaps Cherapanov would have turned out to be the star we so badly need but the jury is still out on all the other picks he's made thus far and he also picked MDZ in 08 and let Jon Carlson slip to the Caps(a real bonehead move if ever there was one!). So what is this "improved team" we are suppose to have that Tort's is pumping out mediocre results with? If you ask me I say "mediocre team, mediocre results."
Well, yeah he has. I don't understand why so many people continue to imply that the head coach is the reason why the front office's strategy has changed. Quite frankly, it makes no ****ing sense.

I don't like Sather either. In fact, I think he's failed miserably but we've got more young home grown talent than we've had in a looooong time including players that blossomed under our previous head coach. Sather's definitely shown improvements.

It's not Sather's fault that our idiot coaching staff can't form a halfway decent power play with two amazing players.

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10-23-2011, 08:35 PM
  #152
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Honestly, the team hasn't played one home game yet and we're already roasting the coach? Give them at least a couple months.

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10-23-2011, 08:36 PM
  #153
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Torts is a major reason why Richards wanted to play here, not sure why people are saying otherwise.

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“At the end, I had to pick one, and it was New York.”

He chose former Lightning head coach John Tortorella over former Bolts GM Feaster, which at first glance might seem a bit odd considering Feaster’s calm and comforting personality and Tortorella’s harsh — if not hostile — approach.

“There’s some miserable days — there’s some days you don’t know why you’re playing for Tortorella,” said Richards, who Feaster dealt to the Stars in 2008 at the request of the Lightning’s new ownership. “But when you leave and you don’t have that structure and don’t have that coach that cares and does everything he can to get the team prepared, you miss it.

That was one of the biggest reasons for my decision — you miss having that. You know that every day he’s going to put every ounce of his life into trying to get us to win and trying to make us better. That’s always comforting as a player.
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../18857591.html

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10-23-2011, 08:37 PM
  #154
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Call up MZA and let Wolski play his game?? They're two slackers who won't even be in the league next year. You make is sound like we have all this elite talent just dying to have their shackles taken off. Completely ridiculous. We have a team full of players with stone hands, Tort's is just playing the hand he's dealt. When he had 3 elite players(Lecavalier, St. Louis, Richards) and an terrific finisher and pp specialist in Andrechuk(even though it was his last year), Tort's coached to their strengths and won a cup. We have an elite level passer and elite sniper and a bunch of muckers and grinders on our team. We do not have any elite level players so what style are we supposed to be playing?
Of course there is the counter argument that they aren't any good because they can't play in Tort's dump and chase system (just playing devils advocate). I honestly think that this team has evolved and can play more than a dump and chase grinding type of game. I posted earlier in the thread but if you look at the goals they have scored this season more have come on the transition game and gaining the blue line instead of the dump ins.

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10-23-2011, 08:41 PM
  #155
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Torts is a major reason why Richards wanted to play here, not sure why people are saying otherwise.
Because Brad Richards himself said that he would have come here with or without Torts a month ago. He said Torts being here was just a bonus.

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10-23-2011, 09:27 PM
  #156
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Honestly, the team hasn't played one home game yet and we're already roasting the coach? Give them at least a couple months.
Jesus Christ, this.

Can we at least wait until 20-30 games in?

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10-23-2011, 09:29 PM
  #157
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I feel that it's definitely time for some more knowledgeable fans. (Looking at you anyone who thinks torts should seriously be fired at this point)

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10-23-2011, 09:36 PM
  #158
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I think that we are talking mainly out of anger in here.

I actually understand the line juggling last night by Torts, although I think it may have been a bit premature. Torts wanted to take two of his best forwards going right now and try to use them to get other lines going, it unfortunately didn't work.

As for the player benching, I actually like it. Even though I really liked Tom Renney as a coach, he was scared to bench his players if they weren't preforming or if they did something stupid. I like that Torts isn't scared to bench anyone if they do something wrong, it helps get a point across. As long as he doesn't do it too often it won't lose it's effectiveness.

I think the offense will eventually come around. They really have limited practice time and once they get home they should be a little more relaxed and the chemistry will continue to develop. The offense has shown flashes in the 3rd periods of both Vancouver and Calgary. So the players can mesh, they need to work on doing it for a 60 minute effort, and I think that should come in time.

We will have to manage with the defense for now until we get healthy- I can't blame Torts for that.

We also have to look at the big picture. We have traveled over 20,000 miles over the course of the last couple of weeks. We are most likely tired and ready to head home. At the same time it's only been 6 games where our record is pretty good given the brutal schedule. Hank has kept us in games and helped us find ways to win--like he should do. Good teams find ways to win when they're not really playing well and that's what the Rangers have done, even with an inept offense.

I think we should be fine once we get home and get some breaks in. 6 home games will do wonders and I think we should be good to go from there.

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10-23-2011, 09:37 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
I feel that it's definitely time for some more knowledgeable fans. (Looking at you anyone who thinks torts should seriously be fired at this point)
Some fans have wanted Tortorella fired even prior to this season, so I wouldn't paint everyone with the same brush (I'm not for one or the other, I just want the best move possible to made for this team - at this point, I don't know what that is).

That said, as I said in my first post in this thread, I wouldn't be opposed to a firing at this point. Never been fond of Torts, though.

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10-23-2011, 09:37 PM
  #160
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I've said it for years now, but it comes down to the power play. End of story. In the new NHL it's all about the special teams. They decided everything. Games and teams are too close. It comes down to scoring on the power play and preventing others from doing so.

As terrible as Torts' dump and chase is, because seventy five percent of the time we're really just giving the puck back to the other team, it would be tolerable if this team were able to score at a plus average rate on the power play.

We haven't been able to do that in his tenure. With Richards and Gabby and the other players we have here on the power play now, it's not acceptable if it continues and hurts us throughout the year.

Unfortunately, I'm definitely of the belief that even if this team gets knocked out in the first round Torts will be back. I really don't see it any other way.

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10-23-2011, 09:39 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
As for the player benching, I actually like it. Even though I really liked Tom Renney as a coach, he was scared to bench his players if they weren't preforming or if they did something stupid. I like that Torts isn't scared to bench anyone if they do something wrong, it helps get a point across. As long as he doesn't do it too often it won't lose it's effectiveness.
That's the problem. He does it all the time. It's one of the only thing he seems to know how to do.

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10-23-2011, 09:42 PM
  #162
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That's the problem. He does it all the time. It's one of the only thing he seems to know how to do.
For me personally I do think he has been doing it a lot lately, but that's because the team has made quite a few egregious mistakes that can't go unpunished.

What exactly do you want a coach to do to get the message across? There really is only so many things a coach can do to prove his point, imo.

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10-23-2011, 09:51 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
I actually understand the line juggling last night by Torts, although I think it may have been a bit premature. Torts wanted to take two of his best forwards going right now and try to use them to get other lines going, it unfortunately didn't work.

As for the player benching, I actually like it. Even though I really liked Tom Renney as a coach, he was scared to bench his players if they weren't preforming or if they did something stupid. I like that Torts isn't scared to bench anyone if they do something wrong, it helps get a point across. As long as he doesn't do it too often it won't lose it's effectiveness.
Agree, for the most part. I think that the moves he made in Edmonton were out of pure desperation to try to get SOMETHING going, and as you said, he put the two most effective players on different lines to try and spark the offense. It obviously didn't work, but, in theory, it's the right move to make.

That being said, it's alarming that Tortorella's only in-game strategy is to line juggle - we already knew that, though. He's not a tactical coach in any sense, and I think that's where the argument to fire Tortorella stems from - it certainly does for me. The 'system' he plays is very simplified and dumbed down - any simpleton could play it. Dump, chase, forecheck, cycle, repeat. While that may work for a team of blue-collar 2nd and 3rd liners, it's not going to work when the team's main contributors are finesse, talent-laden players - Derek Stepan, Brad Richards, Marian Gaborik - you understand what I'm trying to say. This type of system restricts the talent of these players, and ultimately leads them to be relatively ineffective and disappointing. Gaborik has played well, but, in complete honesty, I think Richards could bring much more than he's currently bringing. He's played well, but he hasn't been that "X-factor" that we need him to be. One goal in 6 games, coupled with 3 secondary assists leaves a lot to be desired. That said, he adds an element to the roster that this team hasn't had in over a decade. Hopefully he'll pick up his game and start racking up the points.

Actually, typing that out now, I think the still ever-anemic powerplay will really bring down Richards' production if it doesn't improve - he gets a LOT of his points on the powerplay, and I think it's time to blame the coaching staff for the PP. Richards is an elite PP player, Callahan is definitely up there, as is Gaborik. Del Zotto oozes offensive skill. The horses are there, the execution is not - I mean, dump and chase on the powerplay? What? Even when they do dump and chase, they never get to the puck, which is inexcusable, given that you have an extra man out there, and should be winning the major puck battles along the boards. Standing still, simple plays, this just kills any talent the powerplay can show.

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10-23-2011, 09:54 PM
  #164
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For me personally I do think he has been doing it a lot lately, but that's because the team has made quite a few egregious mistakes that can't go unpunished.

What exactly do you want a coach to do to get the message across? There really is only so many things a coach can do to prove his point, imo.
What exactly is the point he's trying to prove? The officials call everything super tight. This game is played at an extremely fast pace. Do you think that players really aren't cognizant of it? Do you think whenever we take penalties it's really just guys who are like, eh, whatever? Does Torts think that? The Prust penalty the other night was idiotic. And I know people will point to Torts' benching and say hey, look it worked. But what has Prust done in his tenure here to prove that he's some careless, reckless player that's going to hurt his team? Was benching him really necessary in that spot? Is it so hard for him to walk over to a guy like Prust who that coach should know well enough to know that the player knows he made a mistake, and tell ask him what happened? Torts always seems to just resort to the benching. And while there are times I can understand it, he does it so much more than is necessary or makes sense. I think it's way past the point of having any meaning. This team has been together for a decent amount of time now under him. There's no sense hurting the team by benching someone like Dubinsky if he takes a penalty. The whole thing has totally lost its luster.

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10-23-2011, 10:09 PM
  #165
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That being said, it's alarming that Tortorella's only in-game strategy is to line juggle - we already knew that, though. He's not a tactical coach in any sense, and I think that's where the argument to fire Tortorella stems from - it certainly does for me. The 'system' he plays is very simplified and dumbed down - any simpleton could play it. Dump, chase, forecheck, cycle, repeat. While that may work for a team of blue-collar 2nd and 3rd liners, it's not going to work when the team's main contributors are finesse, talent-laden players - Derek Stepan, Brad Richards, Marian Gaborik - you understand what I'm trying to say. This type of system restricts the talent of these players, and ultimately leads them to be relatively ineffective and disappointing. Gaborik has played well, but, in complete honesty, I think Richards could bring much more than he's currently bringing. He's played well, but he hasn't been that "X-factor" that we need him to be. One goal in 6 games, coupled with 3 secondary assists leaves a lot to be desired. That said, he adds an element to the roster that this team hasn't had in over a decade. Hopefully he'll pick up his game and start racking up the points.
I really can't comment either way. The way the team plays is partly because of the system, but I also think you have to take into account the talent, or lack thereof, of the players on the roster. Sure players like Dubinsky, Anisimov, Callahan, Prust, Fedotenko, Boyle, and so forth are talented, but they assembled a team of players that play that way. Sure Torts likes a grind it out blue collar system but that's also the team that's been assembled in front of him.

Look back at his Tampa years. You had star players on that team in St. Louis, Lecavalier, Richards, and so forth. Tampa never played a dump a chase system. Why? because they had more talented players that can be creative offensively. This is a team that is assembled differently, a lot more blue collar players--sure Sather tried to assemble a team like that, but give a different skillset of players the team might not play that way, it's open for debate.

So while it may have a lot to do with the system, this team also really might not be talented enough top-to-bottom to be a creative offensive team.

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Actually, typing that out now, I think the still ever-anemic powerplay will really bring down Richards' production if it doesn't improve - he gets a LOT of his points on the powerplay, and I think it's time to blame the coaching staff for the PP. Richards is an elite PP player, Callahan is definitely up there, as is Gaborik. Del Zotto oozes offensive skill. The horses are there, the execution is not - I mean, dump and chase on the powerplay? What? Even when they do dump and chase, they never get to the puck, which is inexcusable, given that you have an extra man out there, and should be winning the major puck battles along the boards. Standing still, simple plays, this just kills any talent the powerplay can show.
As for your powerplay comment, I agree completely. I don't like Sullivan, and I don't think he has done a good job since he's been here. He's the reason I think the powerplay is awful. But again at the same time you have to look at the talent on the roster, and we have some nice pieces, but not one that will be an incredible powerplay. But you're right in that regard.

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10-23-2011, 10:18 PM
  #166
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I really can't comment either way. The way the team plays is partly because of the system, but I also think you have to take into account the talent, or lack thereof, of the players on the roster. Sure players like Dubinsky, Anisimov, Callahan, Prust, Fedotenko, Boyle, and so forth are talented, but they assembled a team of players that play that way. Sure Torts likes a grind it out blue collar system but that's also the team that's been assembled in front of him.

Look back at his Tampa years. You had star players on that team in St. Louis, Lecavalier, Richards, and so forth. Tampa never played a dump a chase system. Why? because they had more talented players that can be creative offensively. This is a team that is assembled differently, a lot more blue collar players--sure Sather tried to assemble a team like that, but give a different skillset of players the team might not play that way, it's open for debate.

So while it may have a lot to do with the system, this team also really might not be talented enough top-to-bottom to be a creative offensive team.
That's my point, really. Looking at the team Tampa had, and the "system" they played, I think this Ranger team is ready to move onto a more "talent" oriented system. Dubinsky, Anisimov, Stepan, Richards, and Gaborik are all talented enough to play in that type of system. Callahan is smart enough to adapt, so long he's playing with talented players. With the top-6, I say that the team should play a more complicated, creative style - and once we roll the Fedotenkos, Prusts, Boyles, Rupps, Newburys, and players of that ilk, move on to a more physically imposing, pressurized type of game.

I think people have a different definition of "skill". Each of the Rangers' top-6 players are skilled, some more so than others. Callahan is "skilled", as are Dubinsky and Anisimov - maybe not in the traditional sense, but is Milan Lucic really "skilled" in a traditional sense? Post concussion Patrice Bergeon? Not really, nor is Chris Kunitz, who was the Penguins' first line LW in 2009. These players are not stupid, and they are not devoid of talent, traditional or no. At least attempt to put them into a more creative, complicated system before passing judgment, IMO. (Not singling you out, you didn't really say otherwise, just saying in general) These players can create offense, and look good while doing so.

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As for your powerplay comment, I agree completely. I don't like Sullivan, and I don't think he has done a good job since he's been here. He's the reason I think the powerplay is awful. But again at the same time you have to look at the talent on the roster, and we have some nice pieces, but not one that will be an incredible powerplay. But you're right in that regard.
Not necessarily "incredible", but a unit with Callahan, Richards, Gaborik, Stepan, and Del Zotto on it should be far more than "average" with the space available to them out there.

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10-23-2011, 10:57 PM
  #167
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the big problem with this team right now is the Pack line. They flat out suck right now. The top line is playign well, the 3rd line is playign well....the 4th line could use some help but its not a reason we're losing. AA, Cally, and Dubi...the supposed core of this team, have been craptastic at best.

If they play better, we could be undefeated right now.

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10-23-2011, 11:19 PM
  #168
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Torts Renney has got to go. We do not score any you wanna know why? Its cause these guys never get into a groove together cause every other shift there playing with different guys. It drives me insane as a Ranger fan we have as much talent as any team in the league deeper then most but our coach sucks. If Matt Moulson has a bad night does he get shuffled to the third line or benched? Of course not hes out there on the next shift with Taveres and P.A.. Enough is enough this guy cant coach and person who follows hockey knows these guys need to play together to be effective well everyone but Tortarella Renney that is. Please please fire this guy already.
You haven't been here that long, so I'll forgive you. But this same rhetoric was spewed about Renney back in the day, too. When a team is struggling, the coach is the focal point.

You don't have an original idea. Just realize that. Not a single coach that we can hire will make an above average offense with a brand new #1 center, and a defense missing it's #1 and #3 win games with regularity.

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10-23-2011, 11:32 PM
  #169
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we have a coaching problem on this team. both coaches.

not a fan of either guy. the pp continues to be an abomination. sog are the result of an inability to create anything offensively after line 1. this team isnt performing yet and really hasnt since we opened the season. they look lost for long stretches.

hank is lulling us into a false sense of things being ok.

there was a comment last night something to the effect that " this is torts' team. he said he really likes this lineup, this team as a whole".

if true we are all in trouble. this team , so far, has looked mostly bad, save for 1 3rd period in a game where our goaltender saved our bacon bigtime. this team lacks offense. all we ever do is dump and change, its ****ing boring.

oh but we got lots of jam. lots of mother ****ing jam all right.

line changes. 5 forwards on the pp. benching guys. calling guys out to the media. 2 lines per night of guys with stone hands trying to make plays and failing miserably. all that crap aint gonna work torts.

and before anymore "were 1 win away from this or that or its too soon to panic" crap starts again, im telling you this coach, both of these coaches, need to go. this team has underachieved so far this season, underachieved for most of last season and same for the season before. each season we got more talented, and yet, we still under performed and under achieved.

hank will continue to hide the warts. torts will continue to coach the only way he knows how and we will continue to see a team that plays this stupid rope a dope system of dump and scatter that creates nothing other than long stetches of neutral zone ****.

take the shackles off these guys. let them run. call up mza, let wolski play his game, stop over playing 2 lines of dumpers and checkers and fix the ****ing powerplay.

time to show these clowns the door.
If only we had Renney back... right? You were a huge fan of his, if I remember correctly.

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10-23-2011, 11:38 PM
  #170
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henrik is the only reason the guy still has a job
Ya and you would never know it as he pretends Henrik is not saving this team. It sad to watch yesterday nights game against Edm to see no generation of offensive pressure whatsoever. Richards did nothing at all, and didnt look like he had much to offer which is is the worst thing. Gabby was the only guy with some jump last night. The team does not look good, i know its early but they look real bad, worse than i have seen since the lockout. Maybe the return of Stall and Sauer will help, but we need a change up front, Stepan is not going to cut it as a top line player at this point, and Richards is gonna have to show me more than he has the games ive watched.

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10-23-2011, 11:40 PM
  #171
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If only we had Renney back... right? You were a huge fan of his, if I remember correctly.
OH WAIT! We should hire Enver Lisin to coach the team! That would just be the perfect storm.

I doubt the NHL would let us do it though, considering we'd probably win at least 9 Stanley Cups in a row.

Standard Rangers bias, I tell ya.

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10-23-2011, 11:52 PM
  #172
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why is this thread 7 pages long? why was it not locked after the initial post? bizarre.

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10-23-2011, 11:54 PM
  #173
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why is this thread 7 pages long? why was it not locked after the initial post? bizarre.
Because people honestly believe that firing Torts will turn us into the 80's Oilers.

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10-24-2011, 12:20 AM
  #174
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why is this thread 7 pages long? why was it not locked after the initial post? bizarre.
It is no worse than this one which went five pages:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=1010175&page=1

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10-24-2011, 12:22 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by New York RKY View Post
As for your powerplay comment, I agree completely. I don't like Sullivan, and I don't think he has done a good job since he's been here. He's the reason I think the powerplay is awful. But again at the same time you have to look at the talent on the roster, and we have some nice pieces, but not one that will be an incredible powerplay. But you're right in that regard.
Just like Perry Pearn used to be the reason the PP was awful?

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