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Time for a new coach?

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Old
10-24-2011, 01:26 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by PromNite View Post
OH WAIT! We should hire Enver Lisin to coach the team! That would just be the perfect storm.

I doubt the NHL would let us do it though, considering we'd probably win at least 9 Stanley Cups in a row.

Standard Rangers bias, I tell ya.
I tend to read more than I post (part of the reason it took me something like 8 years to get 1,000 posts), but do you realize how condescending your recent posts have been? This is the third or fourth thread this week where I've read something, thought "what an ass" and saw your user name. Making your argument in the nastiest way possible isn't the way to win a debate.

As far as the coaching situation, while it's still early, I'm concerned. Last year, Torts seemed to be able to change the tone of the play with his between period talks. I haven't seen that yet this season, and they've needed one of those talks in all 6 games.

The player that concerns me the most is Callahan. Anisimov hasn't shown much progression from last year's play, but he hasn't regressed, either. Dubinsky, aside from the penalties (which I honestly think are a result of his post-game ref-vent in the season opener. You don't ream out a ref unless you're prepared to become a target), has been fine (I don't see much difference in his play and Richards'). Callahan, aside from that fantastic first game, has been a complete non-factor. He seems listless in a way that he never has before. I don't know why, but they need to figure out what's wrong with him, because the rest of the team takes its lead from his example. The team has been missing some key players, but none of those losses has been more damaging than the absence of Cally's usual self, imo.

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10-24-2011, 02:48 AM
  #177
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But its been the same problem with the Rangers not scoring goals and having poor Hendrik have to be next to perfect to win. This isnt a six game problem this is a two year problem. I wanted Torts gone at the beginning of last season and for the same reasons I do now. he shuffles lines and we dont score no consistency thats the bottom line. He needs to go and now or we will struggle for the eight seed once again.


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10-24-2011, 06:02 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
The player that concerns me the most is Callahan. Anisimov hasn't shown much progression from last year's play, but he hasn't regressed, either. Dubinsky, aside from the penalties (which I honestly think are a result of his post-game ref-vent in the season opener. You don't ream out a ref unless you're prepared to become a target), has been fine (I don't see much difference in his play and Richards'). Callahan, aside from that fantastic first game, has been a complete non-factor. He seems listless in a way that he never has before. I don't know why, but they need to figure out what's wrong with him, because the rest of the team takes its lead from his example. The team has been missing some key players, but none of those losses has been more damaging than the absence of Cally's usual self, imo.
Good post, I had been thinking the same thing. He's been uncharacteristicly ineffective out there so far. To the point where I'd been wondering if he's playing sick or with an injury.

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10-24-2011, 06:51 AM
  #179
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The way they've been playing almost makes me think that they are simply going through the motions out there during the games without so much fire to win as fire to please the coaches for the system they are playing. I don't know maybe I'm wrong but maybe this team is tired of Torts' unbelievably tough expectations followed by rather compulsive repercussions. They definitely need a tactically sound coach at this point, but one that understands mistakes are made, and if your best goal scorer makes one, you don't bench him or even take him off a somewhat clicking top line in a game you're losing. I don't know, maybe Torts' has put this act on for too long, but it definitely doesn't seem to work anymore.

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10-24-2011, 07:18 AM
  #180
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The way they've been playing almost makes me think that they are simply going through the motions out there during the games without so much fire to win as fire to please the coaches for the system they are playing. I don't know maybe I'm wrong but maybe this team is tired of Torts' unbelievably tough expectations followed by rather compulsive repercussions. They definitely need a tactically sound coach at this point, but one that understands mistakes are made, and if your best goal scorer makes one, you don't bench him or even take him off a somewhat clicking top line in a game you're losing. I don't know, maybe Torts' has put this act on for too long, but it definitely doesn't seem to work anymore.
That is pretty much exactly what the Swedish commentators talked about during the one of the games in Sweden: him not allowing any mistakes and the players as a consequence being too busy avoiding mistakes rather that creating offense. Can't tell my self as I am no Rangers expert, but if the line juggling is based on who's got the off day, it supports the argument in my opinion.

I'd say, if a player in a sequence of shifts in a new line has three poor interactions, twenty neutral ones and ten good ones, the likelyhood of the poor interactions being on the first five shifts would be higher than the last five ones.

If you keep juggling you'll never know the full distribution, and you end up with more poor shifts than naturally would be.

E.g. Zucc taking a boarding penalty in the firts shift of the season juggled him all the way up the Hartford, while the likelyhood of him taking a boarding penalty in the next thirty shifts would be very very small. Before the boarding penalty he was the hit of the camp and the pp asset.

This is the mathematical formula of line juggling. I've spent years on this. My head is about to explode.

I need a rest.

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Old
10-24-2011, 08:20 AM
  #181
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If only we had Renney back... right? You were a huge fan of his, if I remember correctly.
i thought renney was a terrific, classy, intelligent coach. he was actually too nice and wasnt the right personality for a vet laden team looking for an identity.

however, after the dallas game when i felt his team quit on him, i felt that he had lost his team and a change was warranted and in fact, needed.

hes now in a perfect situation with a young team on the rise.

meanwhile we have tortorella- a guy stuck in a time warp where all you need to do is play "old time in your face hockey with lots of JAM" and ride your all world goaltender and you can win games 2-1 and make the playoffs and win a cup.

as much as renney needed to go- and anyone who knows anything would agree that his time had come when he was let go, john tortorella needs to go now too.

as ive never been a fan of his ever, it is not surprising that i want him gone now. ive seen nothing so far this season that shows me this team will be any different then the last 3 torts teams weve fielded. same coach. same issues.

goal scoring retardation
pp misery index @ 100
consistent inability to create scoring chances
creating a climate of intimidation resulting in hockey robots who are unable to create in fear of reprisal and immediate benchings.
constant overplaying marginally talented players with lots of jam and lobster claw hands
consistent derision of any players who have offense first ability

i dont care of this team wins 10 in a row, i still want him gone. im not some fickle fan who thinks hes great when we win and bad when we dont. this team has deep seeded issues- same as weve had the last 3 seasons and still there even with br19 running the pp point- that begin and end with coach clown and sully, his pp challenged side kick.

they.
just.
need.
to.
go.


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Old
10-24-2011, 08:57 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
Stop being logical

This place is only for knee jerk reactions and hyperbole

You people are out of your face if you think mixing up the lines lost us that game.
Agreed..

I think the case for dismissing Torts could be made, on the basis that we could benefit more from having a tactician as head coach.

That case can't, and shouldn't be made before we've even played a single home game.

I find it laughable that people are already calling for his head before we've played a single game at MSG, and during the same week where we shutout the Western Conference Champs in THEIR HOUSE.

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10-24-2011, 09:08 AM
  #183
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Agreed..

I think the case for dismissing Torts could be made, on the basis that we could benefit more from having a tactician as head coach.

That case can't, and shouldn't be made before we've even played a single home game.

I find it laughable that people are already calling for his head before we've played a single game at MSG, and during the same week where we shutout the Western Conference Champs in THEIR HOUSE.
The people who do this are showing their hand, and their agendas, but i am concerned about the PP though. It's been a persistant failure and shows no sign of improvement. I'm so sick looking at Mike Sullivan standing there like a wooden indian.

Every time we have the man advantage it looks like the first time the team has played together. It's getting embarassing now.
This needs to turn around this season, because it will eventually lead to Tort's undoing.

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10-24-2011, 09:12 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
The people who do this are showing their hand, and their agendas, but i am concerned about the PP though. It's been a persistant failure and shows no sign of improvement. I'm so sick looking at Mike Sullivan standing there like a wooden indian.

Every time we have the man advantage it looks like the first time the team has played together. It's getting embarassing now.
This needs to turn around this season, because it will eventually lead to Tort's undoing.
I'm 100% with you, on this. We have more than enough talent, and the top guys seem to be meshing quite well. So what gives?

This is totally on the coaches. I don't think they have a clue.

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10-24-2011, 09:15 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Hightide85 View Post
Agreed..

I think the case for dismissing Torts could be made, on the basis that we could benefit more from having a tactician as head coach.

That case can't, and shouldn't be made before we've even played a single home game.

I find it laughable that people are already calling for his head before we've played a single game at MSG, and during the same week where we shutout the Western Conference Champs in THEIR HOUSE.
What people like you and everyone else on here that continues to comment about the small sample size of games need to understand, is that Torts hasn't been coaching this team for six games.

These opinions come from observations of his entire tenure here.

The problems are the same. That is an issue.

I'm not someone who's going to clamor for his firing, because personally I don't think he's going anywhere. I'd even doubt it if we lost in the first round that he's gone.

That doesn't mean people don't have a point. We have enough of a sample size since he's been here to have an opinion about this.



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Originally Posted by Tunnelundefaret View Post
That is pretty much exactly what the Swedish commentators talked about during the one of the games in Sweden: him not allowing any mistakes and the players as a consequence being too busy avoiding mistakes rather that creating offense. Can't tell my self as I am no Rangers expert, but if the line juggling is based on who's got the off day, it supports the argument in my opinion.

I'd say, if a player in a sequence of shifts in a new line has three poor interactions, twenty neutral ones and ten good ones, the likelyhood of the poor interactions being on the first five shifts would be higher than the last five ones.

If you keep juggling you'll never know the full distribution, and you end up with more poor shifts than naturally would be.

E.g. Zucc taking a boarding penalty in the firts shift of the season juggled him all the way up the Hartford, while the likelyhood of him taking a boarding penalty in the next thirty shifts would be very very small. Before the boarding penalty he was the hit of the camp and the pp asset.

This is the mathematical formula of line juggling. I've spent years on this. My head is about to explode.

I need a rest.

See this is kind of the point I was trying to make before. The Prust penalty the other night was a dumb one, but someone like Prust (and pretty much ALL NHL players) knows right away that it was a dumb one. What point is the coach trying to make by benching him? Has Prust been a liability since he's been here or something? Does he run around taking careless penalties game after game? No. It was a one time thing and a guy like Prust knows right away that it was a mistake. Benching him just makes it look like it's all about the coach. Which, since Torts has been here, it pretty much has been. This game is played at way too high a speed, and officiated way too tightly, for there not to be penalties. For guys to be out there and playing fearful of making a mistake because they know at the first instance they're going to be benched for it (even though as you surmised that it's probably greatly against the odds of it continuing) just isn't a good practice for our players to be in. j

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10-24-2011, 09:18 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
The people who do this are showing their hand, and their agendas, but i am concerned about the PP though. It's been a persistant failure and shows no sign of improvement. I'm so sick looking at Mike Sullivan standing there like a wooden indian.

Every time we have the man advantage it looks like the first time the team has played together. It's getting embarassing now.
This needs to turn around this season, because it will eventually lead to Tort's undoing.
The power play will always be the difference in the new NHL.

Sully is Torts' hand picked guy. The power play sucking is a huge reflection on Torts, because it's either his guy's fault, or it assumes that Torts isn't directly involved in specific, extremely important aspects of his team.

Then again, this is the same guy who doesn't even draw things up for the team. So maybe he's not involved.

Still, it falls on him ultimately.

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10-24-2011, 09:27 AM
  #187
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many of us dont need a home game or 20 more games to realize that this is the same torts team playing torts hockey weve seen since hes been here.

again, he said this is his team and he likes this team. a 1st line with an out of position centerman playing wing and 3 3rd lines dumping and chasing into oblivion.

how much longer can we watch dump and chase powerplays ?

the perfect torts lineup.

that scares me.

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10-24-2011, 09:30 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
What people like you and everyone else on here that continues to comment about the small sample size of games need to understand, is that Torts hasn't been coaching this team for six games.

These opinions come from observations of his entire tenure here.

The problems are the same. That is an issue.

I'm not someone who's going to clamor for his firing, because personally I don't think he's going anywhere. I'd even doubt it if we lost in the first round that he's gone.

That doesn't mean people don't have a point. We have enough of a sample size since he's been here to have an opinion about this.
Yeah, I understand that. I personally think Mike Sullivan is a total waste, and should have been let go 2 years ago when we missed the playoffs.

That said, the hot/cold mentality of some people here, is laughable. If we come out tonight and destroy Winnipeg, then everything is golden, and we are "for real" and "cup contenders". Then we'll lose the next game, and it's "Fire Torts".

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10-24-2011, 09:50 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by ruckus View Post
The power play will always be the difference in the new NHL.

Sully is Torts' hand picked guy. The power play sucking is a huge reflection on Torts, because it's either his guy's fault, or it assumes that Torts isn't directly involved in specific, extremely important aspects of his team.

Then again, this is the same guy who doesn't even draw things up for the team. So maybe he's not involved.

Still, it falls on him ultimately.
i'm in agreement with you here. my confidence in this coach is fading each season he's here. like you i believe they have committed to him for a few years and he's here to stay, but i'm taken aback at how little there is to this guy.

I like the attitude and the accountability, although if you go to the well too much with the yelling, criticizing, and benching it's going to wear thin and you'll lose the team. I don't think he's there yet but he needs to watch out.

What i'm starting to see with Torts is that EVERYTHING with him seems to be instinctual. his gut reaction. his feelings. i don't like that. I thought there was more to him, and i keep waiting for something that doesn't seem to show up.

This PP. I can't say anything else. putrid. pitiful. inexcusable.
For me, if ca'nt improve it this season, i could care less if he's gone.

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10-24-2011, 10:25 AM
  #190
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Yeah, I understand that. I personally think Mike Sullivan is a total waste, and should have been let go 2 years ago when we missed the playoffs.

That said, the hot/cold mentality of some people here, is laughable. If we come out tonight and destroy Winnipeg, then everything is golden, and we are "for real" and "cup contenders". Then we'll lose the next game, and it's "Fire Torts".
Well yeah I get that but we all fall into the trap of generalizing because it's a message board. Unless we're all really paying attention to each poster and who says what all the time it's hard to draw many conclusions.

I think most people here have high hopes for this team, while at the same time they're discouraged by a lot of the things we've seen so far.

Sure, there's probably people who lean more towards the doom and gloom, and then people who look more on the bright side and think we'll be fine, but I think the majority are in between.

I still personally think this is a good hockey team. I don't know if I expect us to be a top 4 team in the East after what I've seen, but I still think this is a playoff team and one that has the ability to make a long run when they get there.

That being said, I don't think I've seen anything from Torts since he's been here that makes me believe that he's the guy who's going to get the most out of this team. Which is interesting because one thing people that defend him always say is that he gets the most out of his teams. Based on what? I've seen nothing that proves that. And consistency since he's been here has been a huge issue.

I don't think he's being replaced any time soon, and I wouldn't know who to replace him with, but I think there are a lot of coaches in the league right now who would do a better job of helping this team succeed than him. That's for sure.



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i'm in agreement with you here. my confidence in this coach is fading each season he's here. like you i believe they have committed to him for a few years and he's here to stay, but i'm taken aback at how little there is to this guy.

I like the attitude and the accountability, although if you go to the well too much with the yelling, criticizing, and benching it's going to wear thin and you'll lose the team. I don't think he's there yet but he needs to watch out.

What i'm starting to see with Torts is that EVERYTHING with him seems to be instinctual. his gut reaction. his feelings. i don't like that. I thought there was more to him, and i keep waiting for something that doesn't seem to show up.

This PP. I can't say anything else. putrid. pitiful. inexcusable.
For me, if ca'nt improve it this season, i could care less if he's gone.

See one thing that people who like him always point to is the accountability and attitude and all that stuff. That stuff is all well and good, but it needs to be a part of this organization's identity. Not the entire identity. And although there are plenty of people out there who don't care about his water bottle incident, who don't care that he doesn't talk to the media, who don't care that he continuously benches people at the drop of a hat, the fact of the matter is that it appears this is Torts' M.O. And that's really it.

Earlier in the thread someone posted an article about Torts and how he "deflected attention from his team" in Tampa Bay during a Cup run to take the pressure off them. That's all well and good. But to act like that's what he's doing six games into a season with this team is ridiculous.

This guy has been here long enough that we know who he is. We know how he conducts himself. Acting like him blowing off the media is some calculated move is insane. It's just Torts. He can be a real blowhard and a jerk. And when his team loses and he's angry, it gets much worse.

A tiger doesn't change its stripes.

I think it's pretty clear that before the season most of our players believed that this team was a top 4 team in the East and on that should be competing for a Cup.

Regardless of what people's own individual opinions are of the team and their expectations, I think the team believes that it's good enough to make some noise this year.

Torts better help this team start seeing some serious results. Cause his constant immaturity and failure to adapt and inability to make this group successful consistently, night in and night out, is not going to fly forever.

Torts' act and hypocrisy and all that is tolerable, if the team is a winner.

We've got a lot of work to do at this point to make him tolerable.

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10-24-2011, 10:35 AM
  #191
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i couldn't agree more. this season is his proving ground. this team has to take a step forward. no more excuses.

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10-24-2011, 10:46 AM
  #192
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See this is kind of the point I was trying to make before. The Prust penalty the other night was a dumb one, but someone like Prust (and pretty much ALL NHL players) knows right away that it was a dumb one. What point is the coach trying to make by benching him? Has Prust been a liability since he's been here or something? Does he run around taking careless penalties game after game? No. It was a one time thing and a guy like Prust knows right away that it was a mistake. Benching him just makes it look like it's all about the coach. Which, since Torts has been here, it pretty much has been. This game is played at way too high a speed, and officiated way too tightly, for there not to be penalties. For guys to be out there and playing fearful of making a mistake because they know at the first instance they're going to be benched for it (even though as you surmised that it's probably greatly against the odds of it continuing) just isn't a good practice for our players to be in. j
Prust was benched for a period. It's not about the coach. It's about accountability to the team. Prust, as smart and hard working of a player as he is, took a very dumb, needless penalty. He sat for a short period and came back playing hard. And let's not forget...this is the same player that many people (I won't name who) complained about for recieving ice time when Avery was getting benched by the coach for taking dumb penalties & being generally useless. The same standard applies to Prust as well.

And let's put some context to the benching - which of course you failed to do. The penalty came in the first period of the game, after the coach had made it a point of emphasis in practice to not to take penalties. I believe they said he had them doing push ups after taking penalties in the practice games. The penalty itself had nothing to do with "the game being played a high speed" or "officiated too tightly." It was a needless holding the stick penalty in the offensive zone that deserved to be called and was. He sat because he did something stupid.

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10-24-2011, 10:55 AM
  #193
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We also scored a lot of goals with Renney.
If ever, Renney will raise the sc well before Torts.

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10-24-2011, 11:03 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
many of us dont need a home game or 20 more games to realize that this is the same torts team playing torts hockey weve seen since hes been here.

again, he said this is his team and he likes this team. a 1st line with an out of position centerman playing wing and 3 3rd lines dumping and chasing into oblivion.

how much longer can we watch dump and chase powerplays ?

the perfect torts lineup.

that scares me.
Renney just showed what Puck Possession game could do to Tortshockey.

I agree with assertion that Torts is not a very cerebral coach. My question is how far "not very cerebral" is from plain dumb?
Torts should be fired last May. He wasn't for well known reasons. Now it forces me to root the moron.

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10-24-2011, 11:05 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
If ever, Renney will raise the sc well before Torts.
You mean again. Torts raised the cup 7 years ago.

What Renney has raised so far is the profits of orbit chewing gum.

He is a good coach. You folks also ran him out of town. So Its time to move on.

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10-24-2011, 11:11 AM
  #196
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You mean again. Torts raised the cup 7 years ago.

What Renney has raised so far is the profits of orbit chewing gum.

He is a good coach. You folks also ran him out of town. So Its time to move on.
No one wants Renney back. All we need is a hockey mind we lost with hiring a motivator.

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10-24-2011, 11:13 AM
  #197
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No one wants Renney back. All we need is a hockey mind we lost with hiring a motivator.
Well, who out there is a good option?

I look around the league and all I see is Hitchcock, who has been compared to Tortorella time and time again.

If the team is going to make a huge move like firing the coach early (Which it wont) it better damn well have a good successor in place.

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10-24-2011, 11:30 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Prust was benched for a period. It's not about the coach. It's about accountability to the team. Prust, as smart and hard working of a player as he is, took a very dumb, needless penalty. He sat for a short period and came back playing hard. And let's not forget...this is the same player that many people (I won't name who) complained about for recieving ice time when Avery was getting benched by the coach for taking dumb penalties & being generally useless. The same standard applies to Prust as well.

And let's put some context to the benching - which of course you failed to do. The penalty came in the first period of the game, after the coach had made it a point of emphasis in practice to not to take penalties. I believe they said he had them doing push ups after taking penalties in the practice games. The penalty itself had nothing to do with "the game being played a high speed" or "officiated too tightly." It was a needless holding the stick penalty in the offensive zone that deserved to be called and was. He sat because he did something stupid.

I understand the logistics of it. The reason I used the Prust example was because it was the most recent. My point is what exactly is Torts proving here? Do you really think that Brandon Prust didn't know right away that he made a dumb play? I ask again, has Prust been a player who has been reckless and careless in his tenure here to the point where he needed something drilled into his head?

It's about the coach. It's always been about the coach. Prust didn't need a benching. But it's one of the only things that this coach knows how to do because he's proven he's not very good at adapting on the fly and he's terrible at making in game adjustments.

I don't disagree with Prust's penalty being moronic, and I don't disagree with Torts for being furious. The problem is that the benching isn't always necessary, and yet for Torts, it seems to always happen.

You can't keep going to the well again, and again, and again. These aren't pee wee hockey players. They know what they should and shouldn't do.

Prust didn't "come back playing hard" because he was benched. Prust always plays hard. He took a dumb penalty. It happens. The benching was really necessary?

And I'm glad we've got a coach who makes professional athletes do push ups during practice because someone took a penalty.

These are hockey players. They're not prima donna NFL or NBA or MLB stars. There's a hard working, blue collar, prideful element that has applied to the large majority of hockey players for a long, long, long, time.

Torts' act is going to wear thin. You can't continue to demand of others while simultaneously you fail to produce.

If he wants to bench people every night and make guys do push ups at practice, why doesn't he go coach high school hockey?

The guy really needs to spend his time game planning, watching opponents and figuring out ways to beat them.

His caveman style of hockey is not going to get this team anywhere unless he finds a way to adapt.

We've yet to see any ability from him to do that since he's been the coach here.

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Old
10-24-2011, 11:36 AM
  #199
fredrikstad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
It's an incomplete team, the expectations around here are out of control.
And it should not be.A team hitting the cap roof,should be a complete team, who doesn`t need to grind, dump and chase all the time.
It should be a very fun team to watch.

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10-24-2011, 11:39 AM
  #200
Riche16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Prust was benched for a period. It's not about the coach. It's about accountability to the team. Prust, as smart and hard working of a player as he is, took a very dumb, needless penalty. He sat for a short period and came back playing hard. And let's not forget...this is the same player that many people (I won't name who) complained about for recieving ice time when Avery was getting benched by the coach for taking dumb penalties & being generally useless. The same standard applies to Prust as well.

And let's put some context to the benching - which of course you failed to do. The penalty came in the first period of the game, after the coach had made it a point of emphasis in practice to not to take penalties. I believe they said he had them doing push ups after taking penalties in the practice games. The penalty itself had nothing to do with "the game being played a high speed" or "officiated too tightly." It was a needless holding the stick penalty in the offensive zone that deserved to be called and was. He sat because he did something stupid.
Well said... the thing about accountability is that it ISN'T SELECTIVE. It can't be, otherwise it's not accountability.

I'm not a huge Torts proponent but the guy is going to get at least the rest of the season to see what he/his team can do. YES, the PP is abysmal and has been (even under Renney)... if he can't figure it out this yr. then I may be more interested in seeing a change.

Right now without Staal/Sauer he's just trying to not take on water. He may have the team in a more defensively oriented mindset. Either way, it's early still and like it or not he's not getting canned anytime soon.

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