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Is it normal to want your team to lose?

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Old
10-24-2011, 05:20 PM
  #151
TheWhiteIdea
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Whatever it takes to rid the Habs of JM I'm on board. 10 straight losses,so be it, no playoffs this year so be it. Anything to rid Montreal of this sack o crap JM.

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10-24-2011, 05:21 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ymorin007 View Post
Georges Laraque a du croustillant. Il dit même que c'est une bombe ! Il révèle tout à l'Esprit d'Équipe dans quelques instants... À voir !
============
Laraque has some juicy news about (I assume the habs) . He will tell everything at l'esprit D'equipe in a few minutes.

Anyone knows about this show? I need a stream dammit.
He just did this a couple of months ago. I call horse ****.

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Old
10-24-2011, 05:46 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
some people never learn regardless the age.





what do you mean by win in 5 years or win in 2 games ?

a win in 5 years hopefully means a cup. 2 games means nothing.
key word here.

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10-24-2011, 05:48 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
key word here.
sort of like "hopefully" making a deep playoff run as a low seed

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10-24-2011, 05:50 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
sort of like "hopefully" making a deep playoff run as a low seed
Or "hopefully" having a draft pick or prospect pan out...

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Old
10-24-2011, 05:50 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
context context context...

not all win's are equal, and besides, I think the clear point he's making is that a small sacrifice today in return for greater success tomorrow is worth it...

do you really disagree with that?
well that's the thing, it's not a sacrifice for a better tomorrow... it's more like for a better next week or next month, so to speak...

now if people are delusional enough to think ONE bad season would make a world of difference, so be it I guess...

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10-24-2011, 06:17 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by DohDog View Post
And I'm not sure the players like to play for JM anyway...
I don't pretend to know but that's my guess based on the slow line changes, the fact that the team has not united in defense of the coach, the lack of communication I see on the bench. We got stallions being used as plow horses. The system is "careful, don't make a mistake out there" etc.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What is the difference between the two? In either case you're hoping the team loses.

And how is losing for the month of October only going to lead to profound changes? Maybe the coach will change but what else do you expect will happen?
I think if we lose three of four this week to end October with six points out of a possible 22, the coach will be changed during the six-day layoff that starts the following week. If however we win three of four, management will declare us "back on track" and no change. It's a tough spot to be in, but for a significant change in team culture and both short- and long-term improvement, step one is a new coach IMO. Ideally with a new coach we do make the playoffs because I think with the freedom to explore more creative offense our players would perform better.

Go Habs Go !!!

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Old
10-24-2011, 06:21 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
sort of like "hopefully" making a deep playoff run as a low seed
well at least my hopes dont require my team to suck for years

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10-24-2011, 06:30 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well at least my hopes dont require my team to suck for years
Nobody talked about sucking for years.

Philadelphia retooled in 2007, drafted 2nd overall in 2007 and then made the ECF in 2008 and have made the playoffs ever since.

This is what I want the Habs to do if they are 11-15th in the conference come January- February. Give more ice time to your young players. Trade the players who don't figure in long term plans and at least get some value for the impending UFAs that you do not plan to keep. We have lost so many UFAs while getting little to nothing in return. And there's no sense to trading more picks and/or prospects for patch jobs that you don't even try to keep.

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10-24-2011, 06:50 PM
  #160
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Tanking? Keep this current line-up, it'll take care of itself.

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10-24-2011, 06:54 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Nashy View Post
Tanking? Keep this current line-up, it'll take care of itself.
JM is a mastermind. He wants Yakupov, so he keeps Darche on the PP and Plekanec on the point.

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10-24-2011, 06:55 PM
  #162
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I don't get all this talk about getting rid of of the coach. The Habs have made a couple of good playoff runs with the sad sack players they have. Just because they are having some trouble so far, does not mean they won't make the playoffs in the end and get their a$$ kicked by the Leafs.

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10-24-2011, 06:58 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
key word here.
hopefully we can get miss the playoffs by a point, too.

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10-24-2011, 07:03 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by WTFpineapple View Post
JM is a mastermind. He wants Yakupov, so he keeps Darche on the PP and Plekanec on the point.
Exactly...JM's keeps up this coaching genius, a top draft pick will just fall in the Habs lap.

And just in case things get a little too close for comfort, a couple of too many men penalties will take care of it.


Last edited by Nashy: 10-24-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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Old
10-24-2011, 07:11 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well that's the thing, it's not a sacrifice for a better tomorrow... it's more like for a better next week or next month, so to speak...

now if people are delusional enough to think ONE bad season would make a world of difference, so be it I guess...
well, one bad season, timed properly, could very well make a world of difference...

Flyers had one bad season in the past 15 years, and it got then JVR (remains to be seen what kind of impact he ends up having)...

if that had been in '04 instead of '07, they'd have ended up with OV or Malkin...

not that i'm advocating purposely sucking 1 year to get a top-3 pick, but I think it is not so far fetched to think that one bad season could very well land a team a franchise type player that could turn the teams fortunes around... especially if it were to happen to a team that has a pretty solid foundation in place (like us).

while i get that some posters will just want to fire the coach every time there's a bad streak (and really, what's the use in trying to argue with people who are baselessly reactionary anyhow?), but I think a lot of the posters who are suggesting that JM and/or PG are not the best leadership for this franchise any longer, are not feeling that way just b/c of how this season started.

it's funny, b/c most of us want to give the coach/gm the benefit of the doubt, want to be proven wrong when speculating on poor roster/coaching decisions, and so will be less vocal during the offseason or more willing to "wait and see"... then when the worst of predicted problems come through, and criticism becomes more vocal, out come the global accusations that any/all critiques of the leadership are just the "flavor of the week".

there's no black/white, no poster is always right/always wrong, no coach/gm is always right/always wrong...

in the end, results are what matter, and the results for this team, both right now and in past, just aren't good enough... at least for some of us.

just too many teams in the league that have managed to maintain better results than our team in the past decade to feel good about the leadership running this franchise imo. and as much as PG is "new" to the job, he has been a big part of that leadership direction for much longer than that.

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Old
10-24-2011, 10:38 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
I can understand that people are upset with how our team is playing right now, but your main argument in ALL your replies is that you think we finish 8th every year, even after finishing 6th last year. And what you want to do is either trade all our important players for prospects and picks, or tank and draft high.
We tied for 7th/6th... either way we've been a bubble team for years. And we've dealt for a bunch of vets who will never be better than they are right now. We aren't good enough to win right now and we're still going to be a bubble team next year... Individually some of our younger players will develop but collectively there's no progress here. We are spinning our wheels just treading water. I just want us to stop wasting our time and actually do something about building a cup winner. For some reason though, you see this as being 'not a fan'... and that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
There is this silly phase of everyone wanting youth on hockey teams nowadays like they are somehow saviors all the time. They aren't. Potential is rarely fully achieved. We see so many young players that had so much potential fail with us, from the past couple years we can say Latendresse, D'Agostini, Kostitsyn, Chipchura and players who just couldn't pan out like Carle or Fischer.
Right and look where those guys were drafted. On the flipside our only top five pick is our best player. What does that tell you?

You're lucky to get a good player in the first round past the 10th overall pick dude. And once you get picks beyond the 1st round it becomes increasingly rare that you'll land a serviceable NHLer at all. Don't you understand this yet?

It's not surprising AT ALL that we've watched as our club has drafted mid to late first rounders and not produced stars... that's the whole problem man. And if anything, our scouting is probably the best in the league as we've managed to consistently get good players later than most.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
My point is that sure, you can stockpile picks and prospects, but you have to understand that drafting is a very high risk/reward process except for maybe the top 3 picks and even then, there is still a chance of ANY draft pick failing. We have a team that can obviously compete against ANY team in the league, we've gone far in the playoffs with this very core and have now added outstanding players like Cole and very skilled youth, like you all seem to want, in Diaz, Pacioretty, Eller and Emelin.
It's high risk when you are drafting mid round all the time. If you drafted top five three years in a row, you'd more than likely find a superstar and probably at least one good player to go along with him. On the flipside though, you could have TEN picks from 11-30 (where we normally draft) and there's still something like a 70% chance that you won't find a superstar.

There is a huge difference between top fives and the rest of the draft man. So... we can finish low to get a number one pick (which we're unlikely to do with a guy like Price anyway) or we can try to trade for prospects that we believe are worth dealing for (and in this case it doesn't matter where they were drafted if we believe in them.) At least if we traded for prospects we could try to build with them. But we don't do any of this... we just chug along with mediocre guys who are the leftovers from other clubs and try to win with them... Good luck with that strategy.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
We don't need to tank, and we don't need to trade our core away for picks and prospects. Everyone knows this team can go as far as it wants to go, as has been shown to us in the past couple of years, and we can beat ANY team in the league in a best-of-seven matchup when we are at our best.
Our core is mediocre and we won't win with it anyway. What are we risking by trading it away? Seriously.
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Originally Posted by JohnLennon View Post
But now that we are in a slump, all the sensationalist posters come out of the woodwork and start crying for drastic action to be taken. I can guarantee to you that if we started this season on a 6 game win-streak, barely ANY posters would be agreeing with your sentiments and no one would want to tank. It's all relative to how the Habs are doing RIGHT NOW.
I agree with you on this. And I have no doubt that many of these same posters will start threads that say "Feels like '93" if we go on a 5 game win streak.

But sometimes you need to stare failure in the face to understand that you've chosen the wrong road. And if that's what comes out of this and management realizes it then we'll probably be better off. That said, I don't expect this to happen. I think it's more likely that we'll deal away some picks for shortcuts to squeak into 8th. And I just hope we don't deal away 1st rounders in the process.
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Originally Posted by JLP View Post
I think if we lose three of four this week to end October with six points out of a possible 22, the coach will be changed during the six-day layoff that starts the following week. If however we win three of four, management will declare us "back on track" and no change. It's a tough spot to be in, but for a significant change in team culture and both short- and long-term improvement, step one is a new coach IMO. Ideally with a new coach we do make the playoffs because I think with the freedom to explore more creative offense our players would perform better.
Yeah, and how's the different from us finishing out of the playoffs and management making serious roster changes vs. us coming back and finishing in 8th and us being declared "back on track" and no real changes being made?

It's the same situation only on a grander scale dude. I just don't get how you can see the benefit on the small scale and not on the larger one.

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10-24-2011, 10:59 PM
  #167
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by WTFpineapple View Post
Nobody talked about sucking for years.

Philadelphia retooled in 2007, drafted 2nd overall in 2007 and then made the ECF in 2008 and have made the playoffs ever since.

This is what I want the Habs to do if they are 11-15th in the conference come January- February. Give more ice time to your young players. Trade the players who don't figure in long term plans and at least get some value for the impending UFAs that you do not plan to keep. We have lost so many UFAs while getting little to nothing in return. And there's no sense to trading more picks and/or prospects for patch jobs that you don't even try to keep.
Well, they have no cup to show for their great retooling, but just so you know, guys like Carter/Richards were already on the team in 07/08, it was just one of those years where pretty much everyone on the same team is having a subpar season... it's way easier to retool when you already have a potential PPG player as well as a potential 40 goals scorer, we have neither, so to think we could become a great team in a move or two or within two or three season is foolish at best...

just look at how things are going right now, do you REALLY think ONE PPG player would make that much of a difference (we scored 1 goal or less 5X already)...

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10-24-2011, 11:01 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Well, they have no cup to show for their great retooling, but just so you know, guys like Carter/Richards were already on the team in 07/08, it was just one of those years where pretty much everyone on the same team is having a subpar season... it's way easier to retool when you already have a potential PPG player as well as a potential 40 goals scorer, we have neither, so to think we could become a great team in a move or two or within two or three season is foolish at best...

just look at how things are going right now, do you REALLY think ONE PPG player would make that much of a difference (we scored 1 goal or less 5X already)...
And their 2nd overral hasn't been much of an impact on their team anyways.

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10-24-2011, 11:01 PM
  #169
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this will not be tolerated in habville.

i say trade to come

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10-25-2011, 12:01 AM
  #170
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To hell with worrying about draft picks. To hell with talk of tanking.

All this team needs is new leadership with a coach who understands how to play the men he has in the lineup TODAY. Not yesterday's game while Martin was in Ottawa. No, hockey today.

I guarantee with the players we have on the roster that with a new coach, this team will make the playoffs and have impact and a chance to win.

JM gone tomorrow along with Gauthier. You will see this team excel.

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10-25-2011, 12:28 AM
  #171
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this will not be tolerated in habville.

i say trade to come
That's right, we only tolerate perpetual mediocrity.
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
To hell with worrying about draft picks. To hell with talk of tanking.

All this team needs is new leadership with a coach who understands how to play the men he has in the lineup TODAY. Not yesterday's game while Martin was in Ottawa. No, hockey today.

I guarantee with the players we have on the roster that with a new coach, this team will make the playoffs and have impact and a chance to win.

JM gone tomorrow along with Gauthier. You will see this team excel.
Excel at what? Squeaking into the playoffs with no real shot at the cup?

I have no doubt that replacing Martin would give the team a shot in the arm but it's not going to magically transform us into contenders. Best we can hope for is squeaking into the postseason and maybe winning a round or two before getting bumped out. And even that is starting to look like a long shot at this point.

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10-25-2011, 12:48 AM
  #172
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It's normal given what we have been enduring for 15+ years: a boring team without exciting stars, playing for defensive-minded coaches. I'd rather watch the Oilers. I'll watch this team when they have exciting players, or they can keep what they're doing and finish 8-10th for the next 10 years and never win a cup.

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10-25-2011, 12:50 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Well, they have no cup to show for their great retooling, but just so you know, guys like Carter/Richards were already on the team in 07/08, it was just one of those years where pretty much everyone on the same team is having a subpar season... it's way easier to retool when you already have a potential PPG player as well as a potential 40 goals scorer, we have neither, so to think we could become a great team in a move or two or within two or three season is foolish at best...

just look at how things are going right now, do you REALLY think ONE PPG player would make that much of a difference (we scored 1 goal or less 5X already)...
Yes, Carter and Richards were there. They were given the proper icetime to develop as players. In comparison to their previous season, Carter's TOI increased by an average of 6 minutes per game and Richards by 2 minutes per game. They were given the chances to make mistakes and to learn from them. Nobody thought they would become ppg players. Turns out that they did. As 22 year olds, you can bet they learned a lot during that season.

If we gave young players like Eller, Pacioretty, Weber, Subban even more ice-time, they could benefit from it. Will Pacioretty and Eller be potential ppg players and will Weber and Subban be stud defenders? Who knows. But one thing is nearly certain: they are young and they are going to be part of our core moving forward. If by doing so it lands us a top tier talent in Yakupov or Grigorenko, so be it. And if Yakupov or Grigorenko come as advertised, then they are indeed players to build around, offensive cornerstones. Look at the last few 1st overall picks since the lockout: Sidney Crosby, Erik Johnson, Patrick Kane, Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Taylor Hall and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. All the forwards are building blocks of their team (or soon to be).

Right now, I see a few players who don't have a long term future with the team in Gomez, Gill, Spacek, Moen, Darche. Obviously, when February comes around, and if the Habs are out of playoff contention, you sell what isn't part of your future and start building towards it by acquiring prospects and picks. Over the years, we've seen too many UFAs walk scott free. Ironically, the one time we sold, we won that trade hands down - the one with San Jose: Craig Rivet for Josh Gorges and 1st round pick (Max Pacioretty).

Do I cheer for my team to lose? No. But I certainly won't be moping if it lands us a top 3 pick.


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10-25-2011, 01:00 AM
  #174
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The interesting point about the perpetual mediocrity is that it's taken 18 years for the loyal fans to finally get sick of it.

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10-25-2011, 02:04 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by WTFpineapple View Post
If we gave young players like Eller, Pacioretty, Weber, Subban even more ice-time, they could benefit from it. Will Pacioretty and Eller be potential ppg players and will Weber and Subban be stud defenders? Who knows. But one thing is nearly certain: they are young and they are going to be part of our core moving forward. If by doing so it lands us a top tier talent in Yakupov or Grigorenko, so be it. And if Yakupov or Grigorenko come as advertised, then they are indeed players to build around, offensive cornerstones. Look at the last few 1st overall picks since the lockout: Sidney Crosby, Erik Johnson, Patrick Kane, Steven Stamkos, John Tavares, Taylor Hall and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins. All the forwards are building blocks of their team (or soon to be).
well for one, Weber and PK are already playing 20+ minutes a game, PK being close to 25... as for Eller and Pacc, they may not play 20 a game, but they are given opportunities, there's no doubt... what is the coach supposed to do in these specific cases, play them half the game ?

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