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Vincent Lecavalier

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10-24-2011, 11:02 PM
  #1
Stephen
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Vincent Lecavalier

What kind of legacy has Vincent Lecavalier built for himself up to this point in his career? Who is he comparable to historically? He was obviously a player who came into the league with some immense expectations, and has admittedly accomplished some fantastic things both personally and as a part of a team in the NHL and on the world's stage, but overall, his career trends towards an inconsistent swinging between short bursts of elite play and then failing to deliver consistently. Given his talent and size, he should have easily been as reliable as Joe Thornton over the years.

The fact that he wasn't a reliable source of elite level offensive production over the course of his career, has also made him a relatively unreliable franchise player for Tampa Bay over the years, as well as the fact that he has needed special attention for motivation and maturity at various points. Despite that franchise constantly trusting him into a Steve Yzerman type role as their cornerstone, annoiting him captain at the age of 20, investing a decade plus contract on him, etc. he has more often than not been overshadowed by his teammates whether it be Brad Richards' Conn Smythe, Marty St. Louis' Hart calibre seasons, and even Steven Stamkos' Rocket Richard year.

Speaking as a big fan of his, his career has been fairly frustrating to follow over the years. If everything continues on pace for the next decade, barring an unforeseen second act where he thrives again, or suffers a total collapse, he'll probably still walk away from the game with some gaudy career totals, a very healthy peak, a championship and some international success. The compiled resume will still look great but somehow the journey feels a bit less satisfying.

Overall, who does he compare to historically as an underachieving franchise player? I've heard Bobby Smith's name thrown around. Maybe a contemporary would be Eric Staal?

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10-24-2011, 11:22 PM
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Maybe Bernie Nicholls would be a good comparison at this point in his career..

Certainly not a HOF'er...

He only averages .85 ppg (career) and he is only 31.

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10-24-2011, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
Maybe Bernie Nicholls would be a good comparison at this point in his career..

Certainly not a HOF'er...

He only averages .85 ppg (career) and he is only 31.
I know of no reason why he wouldnt make it to the HOF. Especially if he can constantly put up 70+ points in the next few seasons.

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10-24-2011, 11:30 PM
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I know of no reason why he wouldnt make it to the HOF. Especially if he can constantly put up 70+ points in the next few seasons.
The reason being is that guys like Adam Oates aren't in the HOF and Adam Oates was a way better player than Vinny..

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10-25-2011, 12:06 AM
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I'd compare him to Sergei Federov. I know many will disagree but Federov is wildy overrated on HF, IMO.

Lots of hype. Disappointing production. Does the little things (I will Admit Federov gets a big edge here). Proven winner.

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10-25-2011, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
The reason being is that guys like Adam Oates aren't in the HOF and Adam Oates was a way better player than Vinny..
Adam Oates was better than a lot of HOFers. The fact that he isn't in yet proves that players aren't inducted strictly based upon their talent. Oates was a jerk and people hated him, Vinny's just the opposite.

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10-25-2011, 01:14 AM
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I'd compare him to Sergei Federov. I know many will disagree but Federov is wildy overrated on HF, IMO.

Lots of hype. Disappointing production. Does the little things (I will Admit Federov gets a big edge here). Proven winner.
Fedorov was one of the most dominant playoff players of all-time and one of the best defensive players of all time among scoring line forwards.

Lecavalier? Well... he's almost as good as Fedorov in terms of regular season offense...

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10-25-2011, 01:24 AM
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Adam Oates was better than a lot of HOFers. The fact that he isn't in yet proves that players aren't inducted strictly based upon their talent. Oates was a jerk and people hated him, Vinny's just the opposite.
That is the problem with the HOF.... It's not based on talent alone and it should be.

Like I said in a previous thread - It's only a matter of time before guys start getting inducted because they're "likable people."

Dino Ciccarelli had the same problem, and as a Hawks fan I hated the guy and his antics - especially when he was with the Stars, however his numbers are just too damn good to have kept him out.

As far as Vinny, I really don't know.

He's not first or second ballot that is for sure. If he does get in it will be 10 years after his retirement on his last chance.

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10-25-2011, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
That is the problem with the HOF.... It's not based on talent alone and it should be.

Like I said in a previous thread - It's only a matter of time before guys start getting inducted because they're "likable people."

Dino Ciccarelli had the same problem, and as a Hawks fan I hated the guy and his antics - especially when he was with the Stars, however his numbers are just too damn good to have kept him out.

As far as Vinny, I really don't know.

He's not first or second ballot that is for sure. If he does get in it will be 10 years after his retirement on his last chance.
I'm confused. First, you say the Hall should be based on talent alone. But then you say that Dino deserved to get in based on his career numbers, not the same thing as talent.

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10-25-2011, 01:47 AM
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I'm confused. First, you say the Hall should be based on talent alone. But then you say that Dino deserved to get in based on his career numbers, not the same thing as talent.
He was very talented..

Ever see him play?

He was a "junk yard dog" but he had skills...

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10-25-2011, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
The reason being is that guys like Adam Oates aren't in the HOF and Adam Oates was a way better player than Vinny..
Let me guess, you are going to base this on their career or some other scoring average no doubt.

look a lot of people think that Oates deserves to be in the hall but that really should have no bearing of whether or not Vinny is on track for making the Hall.

For the record Vinny is 7th in points for everyone that has played since he was in the league which puts him in the HHOF equation along with his Stanely Cup.

It's funny the guy 1st in points suffers the same impression as Vinny does, in fact many of the top scorers of the era do which may be that people are having a hard time figuring out how stats play out in lower scoring era.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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10-25-2011, 03:40 AM
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Let me guess, you are going to base this on their career or some other scoring average no doubt.

look a lot of people think that Oates deserves to be in the hall but that really should have no bearing of whether or not Vinny is on track for making the Hall.

For the record Vinny is 7th in points for everyone that has played since he was in the league which puts him in the HHOF equation along with his Stanely Cup.

It's funny the guy 1st in points suffers the same impression as Vinny does, in fact many of the top scorers of the era do which may be that people are having a hard time figuring out how stats play out in lower scoring era.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
That's look nice but as TDMM has said in another thread you're just cherrypicking the proper stats

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10-25-2011, 03:52 AM
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truth is Lecavalier's peak was very high and underrated as a 100 pts 50 goal 6'4' 215 lbs center with good leadership , toughness , capable of fighting if necessary but unfortunately for us hockey fans he lost his prime to injuries and never came back.The beginning of his career is nothing bad , nothing great , but at his best Lecavalier was a very dominant player.

HHOF? I don't think so , St-Louis will get in though.I think Lecavalier at his best was better than ST-Louis ever was but it's been what? 5 consecutive 80 pts years for st-louis? That's part of the game , vinny had higher potential , reached it but for a moment so short you can't take him ahead of a lots of guys with inferior talent and peak who managed to keep a great level for far longer.


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10-25-2011, 04:02 AM
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HOF? I don't think so , St-Louis will get in though.I think Lecavalier at his best was better than ST-Louis ever was but it's been what? 5 consecutive 80 pts years for st-louis? That's part of the game , vinny had higher potential , reached it but for a moment so short you can't take him ahead of a lots of guys with inferior talent and peak who managed to keep a great level for far longer.
Completly disagree. St. Louis has one Hart trophy and it means at one moment of his career he was the best player during whole season in NHL. Even when we think about his Trophy as about undeserved one (I hope not), it means he was at worst 2nd or 3rd best player. Together with his HT recored (last season nominee) it means he is considered TOP3 player in the NHL in certain parts of his career.

Now, where Vinny match those seasons? TOP 10 player? Sure, yes. TOP3 maybe once, but best? No.

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10-25-2011, 06:11 AM
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If he retired now, he'd have pretty much the same type of career as Pete Mahovlich. Both big centers with two elite seasons, then a bunch of 60-80 point seasons, and some decent playoff numbers. Pete PPG is slightly higher, but Vinnie's overall points are slightly higher.

Pete is not in the HOF, but Vinnie still has time to build on his resume, but if he retired now, he probably doesn't get in.

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10-25-2011, 06:16 AM
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Vincent Lecavalier = Bobby Smith.

Both 6'4" #1 overall picks who came into the NHL with a ton of hype. Smith was at the time the best prospect since Lafleur and compared to Beliveau.

Both had one massive season where they lived up to all their potential/hype, but otherwise spent most of their careers as 'good' #1 centers who didn't quite meet expectations.

Both were the #1 center on a Cup winner.

Similar playing style, will have similar career totals.

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10-25-2011, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
That is the problem with the HOF.... It's not based on talent alone and it should be.
I think the hall of fame should also consider fame of the player.

Winning Stanley Cup do nothing to your talent but add to your fame, same think for winning art ross of hart instead of loosing them to Wayne Gretzky, nothing to do with your talent but add to your fame.

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10-25-2011, 08:53 AM
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Lecavalier is in the same boat as Kovalev, both are measured against what their talent should have produced rather than what they have actually done.

Lecavalier and Eric Staal have very similar careers for the last 8 years, but since more was expected of Lecavalier, Staal is considered better by many. Staal's 100 point season is his only season over a point per game, but he isn't painted with the same inconsistent/disappointing brush that Lecavalier is.

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10-25-2011, 09:59 AM
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Lecavalier and Eric Staal have very similar careers for the last 8 years, but since more was expected of Lecavalier, Staal is considered better by many. Staal's 100 point season is his only season over a point per game, but he isn't painted with the same inconsistent/disappointing brush that Lecavalier is.
I think this is due to the fact Staal has consistently been the best Hurricane since the lockout, except for one season where Brind'amour ruled. He was also the best scorer on a cup winning team.

Lecavalier was the best Lightning player only twice during that time, and was often the 3rd or 4th best player on his team. He was also at best the 4th most important player on the cup winning team (Behind Richards, Saint-Louis and Khabibulin).

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10-25-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post
He was very talented..

Ever see him play?

He was a "junk yard dog" but he had skills...
Yes, I saw Dino play. He was an excellent support player, but if he was the star of your team, you weren't going to have a very good team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
That's look nice but as TDMM has said in another thread you're just cherrypicking the proper stats
Points is a much stronger indication of a player's worth than goals, but 7th in points over the course of a player's career isn't particularly HHOF-quality, considering very few players have careers that perfectly overlap.


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10-25-2011, 11:07 AM
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I think people are in love with the "idea" of Lecavalier more so than what hes shown on the ice in most of his years. That list with him in 7th doesnt help his hhof case at all imo, hes below a couple guys that have stronger careers and are considered fringe/not quite good enough for the hall in Alfredsson and Hossa, and they also have more points in less games than Lecavalier over that span. Most of the guys below him are not hhof candidates, or the sample size doesnt extend to their hof years.

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10-25-2011, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Let me guess, you are going to base this on their career or some other scoring average no doubt.

look a lot of people think that Oates deserves to be in the hall but that really should have no bearing of whether or not Vinny is on track for making the Hall.

For the record Vinny is 7th in points for everyone that has played since he was in the league which puts him in the HHOF equation along with his Stanely Cup.

It's funny the guy 1st in points suffers the same impression as Vinny does, in fact many of the top scorers of the era do which may be that people are having a hard time figuring out how stats play out in lower scoring era.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=1 999&year_max=2012&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&birth_country=&franch_id=&i s_active=&is_hof=&pos=S&handed=&c1stat=points&c1co mp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3co mp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=poi nts
In PPG, which is more relevant since not every player's career intersects perfectly with VL's, he's 29th out of those players.

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10-25-2011, 12:58 PM
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I like Lecavalier but at this point in his career I doubt he makes it into the Hall of Fame, only 4 seasons of 70+ points, even in the low-offensive era of the past few seasons is not impressive for a former #1 pick.

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10-25-2011, 01:16 PM
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Huge fan of Lecavalier, my favourite player. Started watching hockey in the 06-07 season, that season Lecavalier was just unstoppable, both regular season and playoffs.

Thats what makes it worse watching him now, not because he is a bad player. But because you see flashes of what he could do, but just not consistently. He was much more on form in the playoffs and has been more this year, just hope it maintains and he scores a PPG season.

Watching him tear up the scoreboard in 07-08 as well, while also getting into a lot of fights, that was his prime. Shame ****** hits like the one from Cooke ended that.

In my mind he will go down as a great player I mean he is likely to hit 1000 points given the length of his contract and has 11 consecutive 20+ goal seasons. But he will also go down as one of the most disappointing players to ever hit 1000 points as he could have done soo much more.

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10-25-2011, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Lecavalier and Eric Staal have very similar careers for the last 8 years, but since more was expected of Lecavalier, Staal is considered better by many. Staal's 100 point season is his only season over a point per game, but he isn't painted with the same inconsistent/disappointing brush that Lecavalier is.
Frankly, that also has a lot to do with people not watching Staal on a regular basis and them not having a Stamkos/St. Louis/Richards type teammate to overshadow him.

Go on the Hurricanes board and ask if Staal is inconsistent and/or disappointing.

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