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CHL execs using media to persuade 2012 prospects

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Old
10-25-2011, 07:01 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
What's most insulting is I don't like a team pretending like they are looking out for the player's best interest when they are clearly looking out for their own, and their tactics show that.
NHL teams want their players in the CHL, it's the best development league. They are looking for their team's interest, because it's their job, but in doing so they are also helping the players for the future.

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10-25-2011, 07:07 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
When CHL coaches/executives complain about their players in the NHL, it's usually that they think they aren't getting enough ice time and they could be rushed.
And it's at that point where I personally believe a CHL team should refrain from talking about a player who's not currently their property, especially long term. That player's development now rests on the NHL organization and it's their place to decide how to proceed. Not so much the CHL team's.

Which brings the whole situation back around to the subject of the thread. I just don't believe the CHL should have their cake and eat it too.

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10-25-2011, 07:51 PM
  #28
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I dont see the problem, the CHL is the closest simulation to the NHL that you can get. Some may say it's the AHL but I disagree.

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10-25-2011, 08:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Granted, these kids aren't ordinary, but they ARE kids. Using the media to apply pressure is just a sophisticated form of bullying, on someone who might still be too young to realize or understand what he wants to do in life.
Somewhat off topic, but its acceptable on these boards for anonymous posters to criticize the decision making process of 15 years old players, with some calling them brats and much worse. There where posters on a draft thread that took some vicious attacks on a 15 year old kid in the OHL Draft thread last season that was deemed acceptable. If thats deemed acceptable in this society, then a CHL team suggesting that its best for that player to play in a league is nothing.

I just dont see the big deal, I wish it was ok for NCAA teams to recruit OHL players, because its in the best interest of the player, but sadly its not possible.

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10-25-2011, 08:21 PM
  #30
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I have no doubt Shero was very happy that Kuhn made it over to Windsor (though I think he'd have been happy if he'd made it over to any CHL team). Pens have Tom Fitzgerald who talks to the prospects, their coaches and GMs etcetera. Lots of CHL GMs do have connections with NHL execs and it certainly helps a CHL GM in the future if he did well with a prospect from a certain NHL team. GMs who like their prospects to go the CHL route are doing so because they believe it's the best development route not because of existing relationships with coaches IMO. Should be noted that Shero isn't a GM who pushes prospects to go the CHL route.
Can't disagree with much of this. Though in the OHL, Windsor's been one of the best for developing imports. Where teams like Kingston just haven't.

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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Granted, these kids aren't ordinary, but they ARE kids. Using the media to apply pressure is just a sophisticated form of bullying, on someone who might still be too young to realize or understand what he wants to do in life.

What's most insulting is I don't like a team pretending like they are looking out for the player's best interest when they are clearly looking out for their own, and their tactics show that.
The bolded is a real stretch. I definitely agree with Tigers post above.

As for the last line, it sounds like you could be talking about NCAA Basketball and Football.

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Originally Posted by this providence View Post
Which brings the whole situation back around to the subject of the thread. I just don't believe the CHL should have their cake and eat it too.
Funny part is, the NCAA could have their cake and eat it too, with just one change of a rule.

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10-25-2011, 08:46 PM
  #31
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In my opinion, a guy like Schmaltz should stay to his NCAA commitment. It will help his game benefit more than a jump to the CHL, where I think he could probably be exposed with his weak skating and the game seems like it would be "tougher" with his personality.

On the other hand, I think Zem SHOULD go to the CHL. He's got a well rounded game, good wheels and would benefit greatly from a pro-style game.

In the end though, I THINK Zem will stick with the NCAA route and Schmaltz will go to the CHL. Just my pure speculation on that part...

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10-25-2011, 08:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I think it's borderline tampering (in a loose defination of that term). They need to mind their own damn business and work on their behind the scenes recruitment pitches rather than undermine a quality feeder system in the USHL and top-notch hockey schools such as North Dakota, Michigan, and Vermont. Yeah, their concern is all about the player...
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Originally Posted by Prophet of Glennie View Post
Good to see. They should be doing everything in their power to get these kids to commit. The CHL is a buisness, and teams should do whatever they want to get top talent to reconsider. Most NHL teams prefer players in the CHL anyway so it's not like they're brainwashing them.
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
Can't say I disagree with what either man has said.

With that being said, I think it might cross some lines. But hey, if you are ballsy enough to step out there and say it, all the power to you.
It's rare that one doesn't need to read anything after the 1st 3 posts but plaything after this is just filler, fully agree.

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10-25-2011, 08:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I'm not saying I don't understand the teams wanting to protect their best interests. However, I do remember what it was like to be a teenager... and I can even remember the pressures I felt at school, nevermind being called out publicly.

Granted, these kids aren't ordinary, but they ARE kids. Using the media to apply pressure is just a sophisticated form of bullying, on someone who might still be too young to realize or understand what he wants to do in life.

What's most insulting is I don't like a team pretending like they are looking out for the player's best interest when they are clearly looking out for their own, and their tactics show that.
Of course the teams are looking after their own interests. They're a business first.

And as someone that has known a few minor players, the teams also look after their interests.

There's just as much politics in the NCAA, and the USNDP.
Do you honestly think that the Canadian leagues are looking after their own interests more than the other two?

I find it interesting that a few replying on here have said "they should shut their mouths"

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10-25-2011, 09:51 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
In my opinion, a guy like Schmaltz should stay to his NCAA commitment. It will help his game benefit more than a jump to the CHL, where I think he could probably be exposed with his weak skating and the game seems like it would be "tougher" with his personality.

On the other hand, I think Zem SHOULD go to the CHL. He's got a well rounded game, good wheels and would benefit greatly from a pro-style game.

In the end though, I THINK Zem will stick with the NCAA route and Schmaltz will go to the CHL. Just my pure speculation on that part...
HAHAHAHA.

Sorry.

No offense, but I think it's highly unlikely Jordan Schmaltz bails on North Dakota to go to the CHL based on the fact that if he was going to go there, he would have done it already. They've been trying to persuade him for a while now and no dice. Aside from the fact that Jordan's dad is a North Dakota alum and his younger brother is committed to North Dakota as well, the cards don't stack well in Windsor's favor.

Oh, and I must say the CHL is not the end-all best development route. It's player specific. It depends on each particular player. So let's just end that argument right now.

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10-25-2011, 10:09 PM
  #35
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Borderline tampering? Are you high? How is it possible to tamper with players that are not under contract to anybody? Even if these kids had letters of intention to play for a US College, its still not a legally binding document in any way shape or form. Its basically a glorified pinky swear that they'll show up to that school, which means nothing. If the CHL teams want to make public that their league is better suited to develop NHL prospects that's their perogative, and they are probably right. The only tampering going on is these colleges trying to get kids as young as 12 to make life altering decisions about their futures. Get off the high horse man. The only thing undermining the USHL and NCAA are the NCAA's rules and their need to portray themselves as anything but a business when that's exactly what they are too. If the NCAA was all about the individual players well being then why do they have a problem with players chosing the CHL? It would mean there is one more spot on the school team for another player to get an education, so no big loss right? Yeah, right.
You don't think that CHL teams aren't going after players who are well below 18 years old either? If you think that, you should come here to California sometime and check out some of the top Bantam tournaments in the state. I'll be happy to point out the many WHL scouts that are there. They're not hard to spot.

One thing that some responders here are missing is that how NCAA teams recruit hockey players is NOT the same as recruiting in basketball and football. Many schools, including ones at Michigan and Wisconsin (citing two examples here with successful football and/or basketball programs) don't have as big of a budget for hockey as they do for football or basketball (or some other sports for that matter). While general NCAA rules applies across the board, there are some "sport-specific rules" that apply to some sports and not others.

As for Aaron's question, both the CHL and NCAA are using the media to promote their side. IMO, I don't think that crosses the line. I've said all along and will repeat it here, whichever route a player chooses to go is his and his family's decision...no one else's. But if a kid is going to make a life-altering decision, they and their families should not only weigh ALL of their options, but also consider the long-term implications of their decision...which BTW, extends well beyond the estimated number of years that he'll likely play pro hockey. Not every player, regardless of where they developed will end up with a cushy hockey job (such as coach, scout or broadcast analyst) when their playing days are over. And you're not likely going to find too many retired players going to college (or back to college if the case may be) getting their degrees when they're in their 30s and 40s either.

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10-25-2011, 10:37 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Oilers Chick View Post
You don't think that CHL teams aren't going after players who are well below 18 years old either? If you think that, you should come here to California sometime and check out some of the top Bantam tournaments in the state. I'll be happy to point out the many WHL scouts that are there. They're not hard to spot.
There's a difference between scouting players at a young age (Bantam is the year they draft out West), and getting verbal commitments. But I see your point.

Quote:
One thing that some responders here are missing is that how NCAA teams recruit hockey players is NOT the same as recruiting in basketball and football. Many schools, including ones at Michigan and Wisconsin (citing two examples here with successful football and/or basketball programs) don't have as big of a budget for hockey as they do for football or basketball (or some other sports for that matter). While general NCAA rules applies across the board, there are some "sport-specific rules" that apply to some sports and not others.
Genuinely curious about the bolded, because I thought I knew many of the recruiting rules. It seems very similar to me (ie. Merrill committing at 14, Basketball player commits to USC at 12).

Michigan may have a smaller budget for hockey, but you'd never know it looking at their facilities.

As for the topic, at the end of the day, the ball is in the NCAA's court. As it always is during these discussions.

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10-25-2011, 10:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Pick Six View Post
There's a difference between scouting players at a young age (Bantam is the year they draft out West), and getting verbal commitments. But I see your point.



Genuinely curious about the bolded, because I thought I knew many of the recruiting rules. It seems very similar to me (ie. Merrill committing at 14, Basketball player commits to USC at 12).

Michigan may have a smaller budget for hockey, but you'd never know it looking at their facilities.

As for the topic, at the end of the day, the ball is in the NCAA's court. As it always is during these discussions.
Im assuming (and he can correct me if im wrong) that hes refering to the play with the pros rule, which allows all other NCAA sports other then hockey to recruit players who have played with pros.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4579737

"The proposal, introduced in June, is under review by the NCAA constituency. Coaches associations are key stakeholders, and those with tennis, volleyball and football have either signaled support or formally registered no concern. So far, only hockey has balked at the proposal, which will be amended to exempt that sport, Rogers said."

How the NCAA can define amateurism differently from one sport to another is odd. One player in a sport is an amateur but another player doing the same thing in a different sport is a pro? That confuses me.

That said, Im way off topic.

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10-25-2011, 11:44 PM
  #38
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The CHL is the better development path for NHL and other pro hockey players. Players choosing the NCAA route either don't believe they have what it takes to make the NHL or they are getting bad advice. Nothing inaccurate about these bold statements.

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10-26-2011, 01:50 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
The CHL is the better development path for NHL and other pro hockey players. Players choosing the NCAA route either don't believe they have what it takes to make the NHL or they are getting bad advice. Nothing inaccurate about these bold statements.
I'm sure Beau Bennett would disagree with your statement. In a single year, he managed to put on 20-25 lbs. of muscle without affecting his skating or skill.

No CHL team could possibly put forth the same kind of strength and conditioning program that a player could find at a Division 1 NCAA program.

I'm not saying that the NCAA is the right choice for everyone, but it also provides a counterexample to your broad categorical statement.

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10-26-2011, 02:50 AM
  #40
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The people sticking up for the CHL saying it is best for the prospects....Couldn't you argue some prospects would be better in the AHL then the CHL. So if it's really about what's best for the player's development let players like Etem play in the AHL.

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10-26-2011, 06:26 AM
  #41
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HAHAHAHA.

Sorry.

No offense, but I think it's highly unlikely Jordan Schmaltz bails on North Dakota to go to the CHL based on the fact that if he was going to go there, he would have done it already. They've been trying to persuade him for a while now and no dice. Aside from the fact that Jordan's dad is a North Dakota alum and his younger brother is committed to North Dakota as well, the cards don't stack well in Windsor's favor.

Oh, and I must say the CHL is not the end-all best development route. It's player specific. It depends on each particular player. So let's just end that argument right now.
Yea, I mean he's never bailed on a college before... Oh. Wait...

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10-26-2011, 06:28 AM
  #42
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The people sticking up for the CHL saying it is best for the prospects....Couldn't you argue some prospects would be better in the AHL then the CHL. So if it's really about what's best for the player's development let players like Etem play in the AHL.
Well obviously the AHL is better for development...but for CHL players... that's not an option...

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10-26-2011, 06:29 AM
  #43
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When the NCAA hires a full time mouth piece, who has access to a wider national media audience, it is not surprising.
His name is Paul Kelly and he has audiences in both countries.

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10-26-2011, 06:31 AM
  #44
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I'm sure Beau Bennett would disagree with your statement. In a single year, he managed to put on 20-25 lbs. of muscle without affecting his skating or skill.

No CHL team could possibly put forth the same kind of strength and conditioning program that a player could find at a Division 1 NCAA program.

I'm not saying that the NCAA is the right choice for everyone, but it also provides a counterexample to your broad categorical statement.
Be careful with your absolutes. CHL guys have access to guys like Gary Roberts who are excellent strength and conditioning coaches.

That being said, I don't disagree that some are being VERY overprotective of the CHL. It is a good league, but isn't for everyone.

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10-26-2011, 06:33 AM
  #45
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Anyone think this could be counterproductive; not just with Girgensons and Schmaltz, but other prospects as well?

Going to the media is a veiled form of intimidation.
You'd think any prospect weighing the NCAA/CHL option would look at this and have serious reservations about playing for a organization that does this to its potential players.

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10-26-2011, 06:40 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Oilers Chick View Post
You don't think that CHL teams aren't going after players who are well below 18 years old either? If you think that, you should come here to California sometime and check out some of the top Bantam tournaments in the state. I'll be happy to point out the many WHL scouts that are there. They're not hard to spot.

One thing that some responders here are missing is that how NCAA teams recruit hockey players is NOT the same as recruiting in basketball and football. Many schools, including ones at Michigan and Wisconsin (citing two examples here with successful football and/or basketball programs) don't have as big of a budget for hockey as they do for football or basketball (or some other sports for that matter). While general NCAA rules applies across the board, there are some "sport-specific rules" that apply to some sports and not others.

As for Aaron's question, both the CHL and NCAA are using the media to promote their side. IMO, I don't think that crosses the line. I've said all along and will repeat it here, whichever route a player chooses to go is his and his family's decision...no one else's. But if a kid is going to make a life-altering decision, they and their families should not only weigh ALL of their options, but also consider the long-term implications of their decision...which BTW, extends well beyond the estimated number of years that he'll likely play pro hockey. Not every player, regardless of where they developed will end up with a cushy hockey job (such as coach, scout or broadcast analyst) when their playing days are over. And you're not likely going to find too many retired players going to college (or back to college if the case may be) getting their degrees when they're in their 30s and 40s either.
There is a huge difference between scouting with the intention of drafting and convincing a kid to sign a letter of intent. Also keep in mind that it isn't the CHL who says that a kid who comes to CHL camp and doesn't pay his own way can't play NCAA.

This is a two-sided coin where both sides are going to argue to the bitter end. If a kid is going to play in the NHL by the age of 21, he's probably best off in the CHL (he could get 4 years of CHL plus 1 of AHL that way versus a college player who would be pressured to leave before his 4 years are up (see Jack Johnson)). If he's a late bloomer, NCAA is probably the better bet (chance to earn his degree and create a safety net). But these are rough generalizations and aren't true for everyone. The quality of education could be different depending on which route they take (in Canada, universities cost roughly the same no matter which school you go to).

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10-26-2011, 06:41 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
The people sticking up for the CHL saying it is best for the prospects....Couldn't you argue some prospects would be better in the AHL then the CHL. So if it's really about what's best for the player's development let players like Etem play in the AHL.
Are there some yes but there is aslo some players because of there age go to the ahl and in some cases they would be far better to stay in the chl another year.


Last edited by wjhl2009fan: 10-26-2011 at 09:12 AM.
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10-26-2011, 06:44 AM
  #48
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Anyone think this could be counterproductive; not just with Girgensons and Schmaltz, but other prospects as well?

Going to the media is a veiled form of intimidation.
You'd think any prospect weighing the NCAA/CHL option would look at this and have serious reservations about playing for a organization that does this to its potential players.
Yes and no.

It is clearly a desperation move, and should be seen by all as such. But part of the reason why such a move is needed, is because NCAA is beat into their heads day in and day out to try to make it harder for the CHL to recruit.

A player looking at this shouldn't see this as anything personal; instead, they should see it as a team trying to raise awareness. The players are unlikely to report, but not because of this stunt.

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10-26-2011, 07:20 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by PensBeerGeek View Post
I'm sure Beau Bennett would disagree with your statement. In a single year, he managed to put on 20-25 lbs. of muscle without affecting his skating or skill.

No CHL team could possibly put forth the same kind of strength and conditioning program that a player could find at a Division 1 NCAA program.
If you wish to speak in definitive terms, try this one on for size.

No NCAA team can provide the sort of in-game learning experience that a player can gain from choosing to play in the CHL over college.

While the NCAA gloats about a regular practice schedule, the fact of the matter is that there is no substitute for game experience. They also practice regularly in the CHL BTW. The CHL game schedule though replicates the pro game versus a relatively tiny NCAA schedule. Players generally exit the CHL able to make the proper decisions on the ice at speed due experience garnered via games played, and due superior coaching available overall in the CHL versus college. That is why NHL GMs' generally much prefer the CHL route for their players... because it prepares them to be professional hockey players.

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10-26-2011, 08:51 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
Be careful with your absolutes. CHL guys have access to guys like Gary Roberts who are excellent strength and conditioning coaches.

That being said, I don't disagree that some are being VERY overprotective of the CHL. It is a good league, but isn't for everyone.
So do NCAA players if they're willing to pay for the privilege.

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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
If you wish to speak in definitive terms, try this one on for size.

No NCAA team can provide the sort of in-game learning experience that a player can gain from choosing to play in the CHL over college.

While the NCAA gloats about a regular practice schedule, the fact of the matter is that there is no substitute for game experience. They also practice regularly in the CHL BTW. The CHL game schedule though replicates the pro game versus a relatively tiny NCAA schedule. Players generally exit the CHL able to make the proper decisions on the ice at speed due experience garnered via games played, and due superior coaching available overall in the CHL versus college. That is why NHL GMs' generally much prefer the CHL route for their players... because it prepares them to be professional hockey players.
But for a guy like Bennett who he used an example putting on size and getting stronger was something he needs to do to succeed at the pro level and if he'd gone the CHL route he'd struggle to put on size during the CHL regular season because of the amount of games he'd play.

The point is it depends on the prospect on which development path is best for him, if Bennett was already 6'1 190 when he was drafted then maybe the CHL path might have been best for him but he wasn't so you can see how the NCAA makes sense.

Also there are obviously some great NCAA programs just like their are great CHL programs and there are weak NCAA Programs just like their are weak CHL programs.

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