HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Prospects
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

CHL execs using media to persuade 2012 prospects

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-26-2011, 09:47 AM
  #51
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 7,494
vCash: 1250
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
But for a guy like Bennett who he used an example putting on size and getting stronger was something he needs to do to succeed at the pro level and if he'd gone the CHL route he'd struggle to put on size during the CHL regular season because of the amount of games he'd play..
In general terms, as per my post, no matter their size, players benefit more from in game experience.

The NCAA can never match that CHL game schedule.

While we are picking and choosing via size, how was a smallish guy like Skinner hurt by playing in the CHL? People argued the same things about Skinner that you said applied to Bennett.

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 10:00 AM
  #52
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PensBeerGeek View Post
I'm sure Beau Bennett would disagree with your statement. In a single year, he managed to put on 20-25 lbs. of muscle without affecting his skating or skill.

No CHL team could possibly put forth the same kind of strength and conditioning program that a player could find at a Division 1 NCAA program.

I'm not saying that the NCAA is the right choice for everyone, but it also provides a counterexample to your broad categorical statement.
Beau Bennett? Until he actually succeeds in the NHL, he really isn't an example of NCAA development.

For every NHLer that comes from the NCAA, I can name you three dozen that come from the CHL, including names like Gretzky, Lemieux, Lafleur, Orr, Brodeur, Roy, Bossy, Clarke....and every #1 pick for the past 5 years like RNH, Hall, Tavares, Stamkos, Crosby....


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 10-26-2011 at 10:06 AM.
Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 10:06 AM
  #53
Joe Hallenback
Registered User
 
Joe Hallenback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,496
vCash: 500
Never cared for the NCAA when they pressured players so I am not too fond of the CHL doing this.

Wish the NCAA could change its rules on what an Amateur player is so guys that play a year or a few games don't have their eligibility ruined

Joe Hallenback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 10:08 AM
  #54
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Never cared for the NCAA when they pressured players so I am not too fond of the CHL doing this.

Wish the NCAA could change its rules on what an Amateur player is so guys that play a year or a few games don't have their eligibility ruined
With the scholarship program offered by the CHL, there is no reason for a player to go the NCAA route if they are planning to have a pro career. The education aspect is covered by the CHL and the pro development is better. Only kids who don't think they are good enough to make the NHL should choose the NCAA route, IMO.

Ogopogo* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 10:30 AM
  #55
Pick Six
@Lafortune_FC
 
Pick Six's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Mississauga
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,813
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
With the scholarship program offered by the CHL, there is no reason for a player to go the NCAA route if they are planning to have a pro career. The education aspect is covered by the CHL and the pro development is better. Only kids who don't think they are good enough to make the NHL should choose the NCAA route, IMO.
You realize this is 90% of the CHL. The CHL is much more than a pro development league.

Pick Six is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 10:45 AM
  #56
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 21,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
In general terms, as per my post, no matter their size, players benefit more from in game experience.

The NCAA can never match that CHL game schedule.

While we are picking and choosing via size, how was a smallish guy like Skinner hurt by playing in the CHL? People argued the same things about Skinner that you said applied to Bennett.
Skinner was actually a lot stronger than he was given credit for and he put up a good shift with Gary Robert in the off-season, Bennett on the other hand was very lanky in his draft year. If you're a high end prospect then obviously the CHL is probably the way to go but for other prospects the NCAA can often make sense.

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 10:48 AM
  #57
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 21,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
With the scholarship program offered by the CHL, there is no reason for a player to go the NCAA route if they are planning to have a pro career. The education aspect is covered by the CHL and the pro development is better. Only kids who don't think they are good enough to make the NHL should choose the NCAA route, IMO.
some Kids prefer to do their studying as they're playing though which is either in the NCAA, how do scholarships work? do NCAA guys get 4 years as soon as they commit? in CHL you get a year's scholarship for every year served?

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 11:28 AM
  #58
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
 
Rabid Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Murica
Country: United States
Posts: 19,463
vCash: 500
I don't mind Canadians defending the CHL model. It is what they are accustomed to and I have no doubt that it is the best preperation a pro prospect can have for hitting the bigs in the quickest amount of time. That said, there is something lost in translation when it comes to the appeal of college athletics to the average American. That is a key factor here that Canadians don't have the same affinity for.

Rabid Ranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 11:30 AM
  #59
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
I don't mind Canadians defending the CHL model. It is what they are accustomed to and I have no doubt that it is the best preperation a pro prospect can have for hitting the bigs in the quickest amount of time. That said, there is something lost in translation when it comes to the appeal of college athletics to the average American. That is a key factor here that Canadians don't have the same affinity for.
What i get sick of is some act like the chl is a beer league.

wjhl2009fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 11:35 AM
  #60
ocarina
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,415
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
some Kids prefer to do their studying as they're playing though which is either in the NCAA, how do scholarships work? do NCAA guys get 4 years as soon as they commit? in CHL you get a year's scholarship for every year served?
I believe in the CHL, you get one year paid for each season you play.

I might be wrong on this, but I think that if you turn pro, you lose the education package. I could be wrong on this though. Either way, while it is something, it simply doesn't compare to getting an NCAA scholarship, not to mention, it's harder to go back to school after being out of it for a couple of years.

ocarina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 11:50 AM
  #61
Joe Hallenback
Registered User
 
Joe Hallenback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocarina View Post
I believe in the CHL, you get one year paid for each season you play.

I might be wrong on this, but I think that if you turn pro, you lose the education package. I could be wrong on this though. Either way, while it is something, it simply doesn't compare to getting an NCAA scholarship, not to mention, it's harder to go back to school after being out of it for a couple of years.
You have 3 years to decide to use the package or not. Alot of guys will turn pro and if they don't have a good shot at making a living and have the brains for college go back to school

Joe Hallenback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 11:54 AM
  #62
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 21,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
What i get sick of is some act like the chl is a beer league.
Who is acting like the CHL is a beer league?

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 11:55 AM
  #63
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Vickers View Post
What is your take on these CHL execs using the media in this manner as some sort of recruitment tactic to get these players to report to major junior?
Can't really see how it qualifies as a "recruitment tactic". Did the CHL execs in question just honestly answer questions that local media came at them with, or did they phone up the local media with a "what say you guys run the following piece on Schmaltz/Girgensons?"... ?

I don't doubt they honestly feel it is in the players' best interest (as well of course as their own) to come to their teams. So why be coy if they are asked the question? If they clam up or give a terse dismissive answer to the question, does that send the message that they aren't really interested/don't really care about the player?

They probably said much the same in person to the player/his family/the agent/advisors, anyway.

As a fan, I'd just be happy to get as much information as possible about the status of the players in question and by extension the future of my team, and be glad that my GM was willing to provide it. Without seeing it as a tactic, nor expecting that it would have any influence whatsoever on the players in question.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 12:06 PM
  #64
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 21,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Can't really see how it qualifies as a "recruitment tactic". Did the CHL execs in question just honestly answer questions that local media came at them with, or did they phone up the local media with a "what say you guys run the following piece on Schmaltz/Girgensons?"... ?

I don't doubt they honestly feel it is in the players' best interest (as well of course as their own) to come to their teams. So why be coy if they are asked the question? If they clam up or give a terse dismissive answer to the question, does that send the message that they aren't really interested/don't really care about the player?

They probably said much the same in person to the player/his family/the agent/advisors, anyway.

As a fan, I'd just be happy to get as much information as possible about the status of the players in question and by extension the future of my team, and be glad that my GM was willing to provide it. Without seeing it as a tactic, nor expecting that it would have any influence whatsoever on the players in question.
This is a good point, if they were asked questions about it then it's not really a tactic just them answering honestly. If they phoned up the media then it is a tactic and comes across as a bit desperate.

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 01:59 PM
  #65
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
Who is acting like the CHL is a beer league?
Look at the people that want the rule tossed out that says you have to be 20 to go to the ahl that is just one exzample.

wjhl2009fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 02:12 PM
  #66
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 21,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Look at the people that want the rule tossed out that says you have to be 20 to go to the ahl that is just one exzample.
I think that's because some prospects outgrow the CHL before they reach 20 or accumulate 4 seasons but aren't ready for the NHL. It's a pretty small group though and having them in the CHL for another year doesn't kill their development and it's a small price to pay given how much talent the CHL provides to the NHL.

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-26-2011, 06:31 PM
  #67
PensBeerGeek
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Washington, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 902
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to PensBeerGeek Send a message via Yahoo to PensBeerGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bjindaho View Post
Be careful with your absolutes. CHL guys have access to guys like Gary Roberts who are excellent strength and conditioning coaches.

That being said, I don't disagree that some are being VERY overprotective of the CHL. It is a good league, but isn't for everyone.
You are probably right that I was being a little absolute. The Pens have had guys who have benefitted from the Scary Gary program.

But I think my general point stands. NCAA hockey players, at least at higher end programs, have access to world-class S&C programs and the same trainers that football and basketball players do.

I think that is the primary benefit to NCAA hockey, and there are players who benefit more from that than they do skill development in the CHL.

PensBeerGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-27-2011, 03:47 PM
  #68
Oilers Chick
Hockey's Future Staff
 
Oilers Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philly in April 2014
Country: United States
Posts: 5,963
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pick Six View Post
Genuinely curious about the bolded, because I thought I knew many of the recruiting rules. It seems very similar to me (ie. Merrill committing at 14, Basketball player commits to USC at 12).
One difference is pro draft eligibility. If you're a football player and declare yourself draft eligible (meaning you intend to jump into the NFL draft pool), it voids your collegiate eligibility. That's not the case in college hockey.

Quote:
With the scholarship program offered by the CHL, there is no reason for a player to go the NCAA route if they are planning to have a pro career. The education aspect is covered by the CHL and the pro development is better. Only kids who don't think they are good enough to make the NHL should choose the NCAA route, IMO.
Gee, I guess current NHL players like David Backes, Tim Thomas and John-Michael Liles must've missed the memo.

The CHL does have a good educational package, no argument there, but it is also limited. (And yes, I have extensively studied the WHL package since it affects that future players from my home state of California. I would venture to guess that those of the OHL and QMJHL are similar.)

As another poster pointed out, you get one year for every year played. However, the catch is that if a WHL player (I would assume same holds true for the OHL and QMJHL players) signs a pro contract, the package is voided.

What many people here either don't get (refuse to understand) is that NCAA college hockey scholarships situations vary depending on the school and player. Here are some examples:

1) the Ivy League schools such as Cornell and Yale do not offer scholarships, simply because they can't understand Ivy League (not NCAA) rules.

2) not every player on an college hockey roster playing for a school that hands out scholarships are on scholarship. These players are known as "walk-ons".

3) Some schools (one example here is Ohio State) will continue to honor scholarships (at least the tuition part of it) of former players who chose to return to the school later..even after having played professionally.

Oilers Chick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-27-2011, 04:17 PM
  #69
wej20
Registered User
 
wej20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Swansea,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 21,634
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers Chick View Post
One difference is pro draft eligibility. If you're a football player and declare yourself draft eligible (meaning you intend to jump into the NFL draft pool), it voids your collegiate eligibility. That's not the case in college hockey.



Gee, I guess current NHL players like David Backes, Tim Thomas and John-Michael Liles must've missed the memo.

The CHL does have a good educational package, no argument there, but it is also limited. (And yes, I have extensively studied the WHL package since it affects that future players from my home state of California. I would venture to guess that those of the OHL and QMJHL are similar.)

As another poster pointed out, you get one year for every year played. However, the catch is that if a WHL player (I would assume same holds true for the OHL and QMJHL players) signs a pro contract, the package is voided.

What many people here either don't get (refuse to understand) is that NCAA college hockey scholarships situations vary depending on the school and player. Here are some examples:

1) the Ivy League schools such as Cornell and Yale do not offer scholarships, simply because they can't understand Ivy League (not NCAA) rules.

2) not every player on an college hockey roster playing for a school that hands out scholarships are on scholarship. These players are known as "walk-ons".

3) Some schools (one example here is Ohio State) will continue to honor scholarships (at least the tuition part of it) of former players who chose to return to the school later..even after having played professionally.
I guess though that the top prospects are all on scholarships (at least at schools that offer scholarships) Oilers chick? When they commit do they usually get scholarships for the full 4 years?

wej20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-27-2011, 06:04 PM
  #70
ocarina
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,415
vCash: 500
I'm actually curious on this, for the Ivy league schools or schools that don't hand out scholarships, don't they often offer financial aid to their players? If they do, I would be curious to see how much players get, especially the high-end prospects.

ocarina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-27-2011, 08:15 PM
  #71
OutsideLookingIn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 31
vCash: 500
One thing to consider Ė the CHL and Windsor sells that it is the fastest way to NHL, which it probably is, but how many guys make it all the way to the show.

My bet is that if you donít make it from Windsor, there are not a lot of fans or local supporters waiting to help you start a career or find a job. On average, if there are, it is limited to a few opportunities. Yes, you can take advantage of the education package, but how many players actually use it? When it is used, they are 21 or 22 year old freshman.

On the flip side, if you donít make from college, the alumni base at a major university can and will help student athletes find opportunities to use their education. This is not just a handful of people, but in many cases, fifty yearsí worth of supporters and boosters. In the end, that equals thousands of contacts that can be accessed the rest of your life.

It is easy to see that more players make it from the CHL vs. NCAA. However, I would bet that there are more business owners, executives, lawyers, doctors, and CEOs that tried to make it to the NHL that never made it from the NCAA than the CHL.

It is great to sell the dream, but add a dose of reality and most kids would be better off going the NCAA route, than the CHL.

OutsideLookingIn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-28-2011, 02:27 AM
  #72
PensBeerGeek
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Washington, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 902
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to PensBeerGeek Send a message via Yahoo to PensBeerGeek
Quote:
Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I guess though that the top prospects are all on scholarships (at least at schools that offer scholarships) Oilers chick? When they commit do they usually get scholarships for the full 4 years?
At the moment, NCAA scholarships are officially on a yearly basis without any guarantee of renewal. In practice, they very rarely are not renewed for athletes that meet academic requirements simply because reputation and trustworthiness are so important in recruiting.

It's funny that you bring it up though, because there are NCAA proposals to make scholarship offers multi-year...but that gets into politics a bit beyond this thread.

PensBeerGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-28-2011, 02:34 AM
  #73
WarriorofTime
Registered User
 
WarriorofTime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,594
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
With the scholarship program offered by the CHL, there is no reason for a player to go the NCAA route if they are planning to have a pro career. The education aspect is covered by the CHL and the pro development is better. Only kids who don't think they are good enough to make the NHL should choose the NCAA route, IMO.
The scholarship offer is only for a year after their Junior career is over though. If a player's pro career doesn't work out they're s*** out of luck with no education or life experience outside of hockey. The NCAA makes more better rounded individuals while providing excellent hockey development as well. The way I see it if a player is NHL bound that will surface itself whether he goes the NHL or CHL route. However, if the NHL thing doesn't work the NCAA is the much better option for a kid.

WarriorofTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-28-2011, 08:21 AM
  #74
wjhl2009fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 9,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
The scholarship offer is only for a year after their Junior career is over though. If a player's pro career doesn't work out they're s*** out of luck with no education or life experience outside of hockey. The NCAA makes more better rounded individuals while providing excellent hockey development as well. The way I see it if a player is NHL bound that will surface itself whether he goes the NHL or CHL route. However, if the NHL thing doesn't work the NCAA is the much better option for a kid.
Many players in the chl do get a education there is this myth they don't but thats not ture.

wjhl2009fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-28-2011, 08:40 AM
  #75
IkeaMonkey*
HF Hall of Famer
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: derderderderderderde
Country: Sao Tome e Principe
Posts: 12,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Many players in the chl do get a education there is this myth they don't but thats not ture.
As someone who had class with with some of the players in Lewiston...I can indeed confirm this...

IkeaMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.