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Old
10-26-2011, 01:58 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Would like to see the lines as follows:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Hodgson-Kesler
Higgins-Lapierre-Hansen
Volpatti-Malhotra-Wiese
Agreed but AV's pride wont let Coho even try 2nd line C.

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10-26-2011, 01:59 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
he wasnt coming off a cup final collapse. it was a round 2 collapse.
I wouldn't say he collapsed in the SCF though...

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Old
10-26-2011, 01:59 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
Luongo's notorious slow Octobers are getting very repetitive, especially coming off a disappointing Cup run..high expectations this year.
Compared to his other ''slow starts'' this is a total and complete disaster. You can't even compare this one to the others.

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10-26-2011, 01:59 AM
  #104
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The team's defense is a mess. Some of that will sort itself out over time (hopefully), but there are still some lingering issues that rear their head even at the best of times. The Canucks have too many guys that simply panic in their own end when the chips are down, with Ballard and Bieksa being the two worst offenders. There's also a startling disconnect between coaching and management. If AV insists on playing Ballard 14:00 a night then fine, ship Ballard out on the next flight, no harm no foul. But you'd think after Gillis made a point of keeping him and jettisoning a top 4 defenseman that Ballard would actually get some ice time to get into a groove. Bieksa has been an unmitigated disaster so far this year and he was out there for almost 25 minutes. Alberts was laughably bad tonight from the get go, and even he managed to get nearly 17 minutes.

The fact that the Canucks are currently fully healthy in terms of their defense is actually pretty depressing. I'm used to this crap when 2 or 3 guys are missing, but that the fact that this is as good as it gets with this group is very concerning. This is not a cup caliber defense IMO, even if Bieksa can turn his game around to last year's level.


But I also think there's a bigger mental problem with this team. The biggest problem I've seen over the past few years is that the Canucks haven't demonstrated an ability to deal with adversity effectively. People around the league were apparently saying before last playoffs that Vancouver was impressive but they'll wait to see what happens when they hit some adversity and we saw the trainwreck that happened once they hit some rough patches. Everyone seems to pin that on Luongo, and maybe that's true, but the reality is that no one outside of the organization really knows if that's the case. If it is, then something needs to be done (you can't have a goalie who's lost the trust of his players), but I don't buy that it's that simple. That seems like far too convenient of an excuse for the putrid performances by some of the Canuck players in these situations. Whether it's coaching, goaltending, personnel, or whatever, I see it as the single biggest obstacle between the Canucks and the cup. When the chips are down they fold like cheap tents.
That's a really good point. Next time look at the body language of our guys when things aren't going well, it's just not pretty.

It seems we don't have the guy(s) to motivate the team when things aren't going well. At least our core guys don't seem like they're good at it. Most of them are "lead by example" type of players, but communication within the team is just as important. AV doesn't seem like the loud, vocal coach as well... But of course these are all speculations.

The team has faced adversity before. They may have folded a few times, but they overcame some as well (down 2-1 against the Kings, blowing 3-0 lead vs Chi, all the 3rd period comebacks). I'll stay faithful and believe they'll put it together for another Stanley Cup run this year.

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10-26-2011, 02:00 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
. Lets all sit around and watch Eager take 4 runs at our players and do nothing. It's really quite pathetic to watch this gentle team stand around complaining to the refs after the whistle.
And Edler took 2 healthy runs at Paajarvi and Hall. In the game before we saw Hall and Eberle get smoked. So how is Eager a deterrent?

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10-26-2011, 02:00 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I wouldn't say he collapsed in the SCF though...
i'm not going to get into it so how about I say a team collapse.

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10-26-2011, 02:06 AM
  #107
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And Edler took 2 healthy runs at Paajarvi and Hall. In the game before we saw Hall and Eberle get smoked. So how is Eager a deterrent?
He's not, he's running around hammering our players, he destroyed Volpatti who is our ''tough guy'' which is laughable. The Oilers were much more physical than us tonight, but most teams are. Especially on the road we need someone to run around and get in some faces.

If Volpatti isn't going to hit hard or fight or do anything because he sucks at hockey, why is he here? and why not get somebody who is actually a tough player into that spot.

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10-26-2011, 02:12 AM
  #108
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I think I'm going to wait for the majority of the fan base to take some xanax and get a good night's sleep before trying to have a rational conversation on Luongo and tonight's game.

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10-26-2011, 02:13 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
He's not, he's running around hammering our players, he destroyed Volpatti who is our ''tough guy'' which is laughable. The Oilers were much more physical than us tonight, but most teams are. Especially on the road we need someone to run around and get in some faces.

If Volpatti isn't going to hit hard or fight or do anything because he sucks at hockey, why is he here? and why not get somebody who is actually a tough player into that spot.
Goons get hit too. Volpatti is fine. He's not going to fight every game. He took some heavy shots from Tootoo and also dummied Sutton last the the canucks played the Oilers.

I"m not even a Volpatti fine but I'd say that in terms of enforcement, he's done alright. If this was January, those stupid penalties by Eager would have cost the Oilers the game.

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10-26-2011, 02:15 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Wilch View Post
That's a really good point. Next time look at the body language of our guys when things aren't going well, it's just not pretty.

It seems we don't have the guy(s) to motivate the team when things aren't going well. At least our core guys don't seem like they're good at it. Most of them are "lead by example" type of players, but communication within the team is just as important. AV doesn't seem like the loud, vocal coach as well... But of course these are all speculations.

The team has faced adversity before. They may have folded a few times, but they overcame some as well (down 2-1 against the Kings, blowing 3-0 lead vs Chi, all the 3rd period comebacks). I'll stay faithful and believe they'll put it together for another Stanley Cup run this year.
Yeah they're not always bad when they hit adversity, they're far too good of a team for that. Sometimes they can push through with their talent (LA series), sometimes they squeak through by the skin of their teeth (Chicago 2011), but sometimes they get embarrassed.

Usually they can prevail as their fantastic season last year can attest. But the problem is when you get to the playoffs you're only given so many opportunities to right the ship. 10 bad minutes can completely change a game which can in turn can completely change a series. If the offense is struggling a bit and then they give up a goal or two, it's like a bomb went off in their brains and no one knows what to do or how to play. They completely lose their composure and everyone is jumping on top of each other trying to do everyone else's job. We saw it vs. Chicago, we saw it vs. Boston, and we've seen it several times this season already including in the 2nd period tonight.

Luongo usually takes most or all of the blame from most people, but I don't see it that way. If he's truly the source of all this, then the solution is quite simple, but a solitary source for all of these mental blocks the Canucks seem to suffer from defies logic, at least in my mind. Luongo's not making Bieksa and Ballard make dumb decisions in their own end, or making Kesler try to skate through the entire other team in a futile attempt to generate offense on his own, or making most of the other forwards take a bunch of low percentage shots from the perimeter because they can't calm themselves down and work from their strengths. I'm hesitant to try and blame anyone or anything in particular for this, because I don't think it's that simple. But I do see it as an identifiable problem and one that the coaching staff and management need to try and address.

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Old
10-26-2011, 02:16 AM
  #111
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luongo sux
team sux
hockey sux

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10-26-2011, 02:27 AM
  #112
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I was going to say how starting Schneider will hurt Luongo's confidence.

But just listen to that nonsense. He's a 32 year old veteran, and if he can't get over something like that and his ego needs to be spoonfed with fluffy marshmallows
... I think he'd just be a massive chunk of deadweight. I have nothing against Luongo's play, because all goalies have slumps, but if Schneider gets the nod and that hurts his game, I want him shipped out - even if he starts posting great numbers later on.
Agreed, and didn't Rask almost steal the #1 spot over Thomas one season? then the next season Thomas comes back with vengeance, and doesn't appear to have the Cup hangover at all so far this season either.

But I think the key to Thomas' turnaround is he never gets too down on himself when he struggles, whereas Luongo seems to beat himself up too much.

MG needs to hire a mind confidence specialist or give the ok for AV to start Schneider a bit more than 20-25 games, to like 30-35 games at least, could help Luongo during the stretch of the playoffs too.

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10-26-2011, 02:28 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Yeah they're not always bad when they hit adversity, they're far too good of a team for that. Sometimes they can push through with their talent (LA series), sometimes they squeak through by the skin of their teeth (Chicago 2011), but sometimes they get embarrassed.

Usually they can prevail as their fantastic season last year can attest. But the problem is when you get to the playoffs you're only given so many opportunities to right the ship. 10 bad minutes can completely change a game which can in turn can completely change a series. If the offense is struggling a bit and then they give up a goal or two, it's like a bomb went off in their brains and no one knows what to do or how to play. They completely lose their composure and everyone is jumping on top of each other trying to do everyone else's job. We saw it vs. Chicago, we saw it vs. Boston, and we've seen it several times this season already including in the 2nd period tonight.

Luongo usually takes most or all of the blame from most people, but I don't see it that way. If he's truly the source of all this, then the solution is quite simple, but a solitary source for all of these mental blocks the Canucks seem to suffer from defies logic, at least in my mind. Luongo's not making Bieksa and Ballard make dumb decisions in their own end, or making Kesler try to skate through the entire other team in a futile attempt to generate offense on his own, or making most of the other forwards take a bunch of low percentage shots from the perimeter because they can't calm themselves down and work from their strengths. I'm hesitant to try and blame anyone or anything in particular for this, because I don't think it's that simple. But I do see it as an identifiable problem and one that the coaching staff and management need to try and address.
I think AV needs a good talk too. I remember watching the Caps/Pens 24/7... And boy is Boudreau terrible at motiviating his team. All that was really missing was a bucket of ice cream and a hotdog on his hands. Whereas Bylsma I thought was smarter in getting the most out of his team. I really hope AV isn't a stupid as Boudreau when it comes to motivating our guys.

When we're winning, we keep on rolling. When we're losing, it's like an avalanche. It feels like nobody is held accountable for anything. Our guys just stand around and stair into the ceiling waiting for the game to end. Of course, the Sedins and Luongo gets the most **** because they're our team's core.

While it's true (partially) a team's identity is reflected by the players on the roster, I also think it's important for the coaches to steer them into the right direction.

They're like the middle/upper management of a company, they're the ones who need to set the tone, the mission statement, and the direction of where the team is headed.

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10-26-2011, 02:32 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
Luongo's notorious slow Octobers are getting very repetitive, especially coming off a disappointing Cup run..high expectations this year.
I don't see why his slow Octobers are any sort of excuse, he's a professional hockey player paid really really really well with a TON of job security. The first couple months you can scrape by some pretty ****ing easy wins before everything clamps down in February and March when the playoffs are on the line and you are exerting all of your energy just to make the playoffs/young rookies are auditioning for next year.

It's just the same old story with our goalie. Either play well or sit. Schneider should be given the ball to see what he's made of.

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10-26-2011, 02:44 AM
  #115
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And if you ever wanted another example of how Oiler fans are pathetically obsessed with the Canucks, I didn't need to look any further than the guy who wore a Thomas Bruins jersey to the game a few rows in front of me
Why would you assume a guy wearing a Bruins jersey is an Oilers fan who's obsessed with the Canucks?

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- Taylor Hall is a big talent, but my god what a whiny, spazzy, puke of a little baby. Was just moving from tantrum to tantrum (with a few dives in between) tonight. Is going to get a big-time reputation from the refs in a big hurry.
Hall actually said in the intermission that it was a clean hit. He was just frustrated that he got caught with his head down, and said he wouldnt last long in the league making mistakes like that

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Old
10-26-2011, 02:58 AM
  #116
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So lets break it down goal by goal;

First goal: Simple dump in to Alberts' corner, RNH is on the forecheck (from the other side of the ice blueline), gets there at the same time as Alberts. Bieksa is in the other corner for puck support, and Malhotra stops along the half wall as any winger should. Alberts comes around the net and now has Taylor Hall attacking from the front. Bieksa starts to leave the zone - Why? Alberts shuffles it to Malhotra who turns and instead of getting it up the boards or just out, he decides to make a pass across ice to....you guessed it, Bieksa. Of course, in between him and Bieksa is RNH who picks off the pass. Alberts is at the top of the circle heading out of the zone. TH is still in the slot, and Hodgson is cruising up the left wing boards (almost to center ice)...Why? TH gives to Eberle, who wins the battle with Hodgson and sends it back to the point for a shot. Hansen has a chance but cant get the puck, Hodgson cant get it either - In fact hodgson lets Hall have the puck - skates between him and the boards and passes it to Eberle who is wide open in the slot - hits the top corner. At least 4 times during this segment, Canuck players passed up on taking the body.

Second goal: Another dump in, Henrik, Bieksa and Hamhuis all cruising back, Smith coming in fast. Luongo tries to stop it but hits the heel of his stick so he tries to stop it with his glove - presumably to prevent it from sliding out to an unchecked Jones. Hamhuis lets up and does not hit Smith or take him out of the play at all. Smith turns back and skates past Hamhuis for an apparent wrap around. IMO, I'm guessing that Luongo thought there was no way Smith was going to be allowed to come out that side - but he does! Luongo quickly gets down to protect against the wrap around. Henrik skates to the crease - still facing Smith. Daniel is at the top of the circle, as is Burrows. But, Jones is at the bottom of the circle and Horcoff cruises past Burrows and both oilers find themselves wide open in the slot. Henrik is completely unaware of what is transpiring, Bieksa races to the front of the net - not to Horcoff or Jones. Henrik misses the pass out and its an easy open netter for Horcoff.

Third goal: This ones my favorite! TH takes the puck inside his own blueline, he has Eberle leaving the zone. Daniel, Henrik and Burrows are all on the left side of the ice. Daniel (is he the LW or RW?), chases across the ice toward Hall. Edler is nearly flat footed, backwards at the red line. Eberle skates diagonally through center ice and cuts in front of Hall - Burrows seems in pursuit - for a second, but decides he'll take TH instead. Daniel lets up and tries a half hearted hook, Edler and Burrows converge, but guess what? We forgot about RNH! So did Henrik, who lets him skate right by because Henrik is also heading toward Hall. RNH now has a clear path to the net and takes the pass from TH - who was the LW'r again?. Hall somehow gets through both Edler and Burrows (without any contact being made) and heads for the net. Daniel (on the right side of the ice), does not take Eberle - instead he skates to the top of the circle and slows down. RNH (still unchecked) sends the puck back to Hall who just bowls over Ballard. The puck deflects to Eberle, who gives it back to Hall who bowls over Luongo and stuffs the puck in the short side.

I cant even articulate how bad these players are defensively. They just don't know what to do. They are making mistakes that 15 YO's make. No hitting, no backchecking, It's driving me nuts.

P.S - These are just the plays that ended in goals, This game was filled with poor defense and poor decision making. In fact, this whole season has been like that.


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Old
10-26-2011, 03:49 AM
  #117
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Anyways I'm sure it was part of the plan to start lou tonight, schneids tomorrow, lou on saturday. I say stick to the plan, start schneider tomorrow. Give lou the hnic canada game on saturday. Sit lou for a game or two, I think he will respond to that.
I say start Schneider tomorrow, saturday, and then the next 4-5 games.

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10-26-2011, 03:50 AM
  #118
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Can't help but think that the defense needs another stalwart. Bieksa and Ballard are both adventures. Bieksa is supposed to be able to play a consistent game, especially for the money he's making, but he still can't figure out when to pinch and when not to. So many times he gets caught up ice making a bad pinch causing a 3 on 2 or 2 on 1. Ballard really doesn't seem to have any sort of radar for that either. At one point tonight he made a pinch while Bieksa was already deep in the zone, leaving Malhotra to cover and thankfully get them out of that brief ****show.

Edler also isn't up to snuff in his own zone, although he's comparably better than those two bumbling buffoons. Salo and to a lesser extent Hamhuis, are really the only defenders that are capable of playing responsibly at both ends of the ice, and look to be the only ones capable into the foreseeable future, until Salo gets injured. I cringe at the thought of our defense when that happens.

This team has too many roving dmen and not enough that can actually play defense. I understand that Bieksa is a favourite in the room, is a likeable guy, and seems to be an AV favourite as well, but he really doesn't have a handle on playing defense. For a guy making the salary he is, he should be able to anchor a pairing. Instead, he needs to be babysat with someone like Hamhuis. He has proven repeatedly that he can't anchor a pairing. There really isn't room for both he and Ballard in the lineup.

Alberts was guilty of trying to do too much tonight. When he does that he loses the benefits he brings to the team. He could be a valuable bottom pairing dman if he could figure out that simpler is better.

I thought Hodgson had a nice bounce back game after he struggled a bit last game. He definitely seems to be more comfortable at centre. I agree with those calling for Higgins to be put on his wing, but am also willing to give the Amex guys some time to see what they can come up with.

Thought Booth was ok for his first game on a new team. Nothing too impressive, but looks to work hard, so that's a plus. Will take some time for him to get acclimated.

Hansen needs to breathe when he gets the puck. Take a second and don't rush it. I do love his try though. Works his tail off most of the time.

If Burrows could bury those chances he's getting, he'd be on pace for over 50. As it stands, he's still putting them in, but he could have a great year once he warms up.

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10-26-2011, 06:05 AM
  #119
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A defensively-minded coach can't get his team to play defense until November... Really? That's what it comes down to. People want to string up Luongo. And it's true that he deserves it, but so does AV. the coverage problems are on him if anyone. Were the defensive breakdowns Luongo's doing as well? Nope. AV's message is taking longer and longer to sink in. Perhaps the players are tuning him out now?


I already suspect his offensive "scheme" is a sham. The Sedins have carried the offense for this team for years and AV has exploited that strength. But in the playoffs when the Sedins have to play defense and the rest of the squad have to do something offensively, the team struggles greatly. Coincidence? I think not.


To tell the truth I'm not that concerned about this team. It should still make the playoffs and still do reasonably well. I just think the team's talent level is being wasted by an archaic D-fixated coach. There's just too much talent for this team to struggle like it does. And now if the team can't even rely on it's defense to see their offensive woes through... well then you get what we have now. It's disturbing that the defensive play of the team, an AV calling-card, is in shambles. It's just downright unacceptable. What strength does AV have as a coach if he can't even claim that his defense can be relied upon? Answer: No strength at all.


It's no longer about getting player X, or move this player here or there. Most GMs would kill to have a roster like this. Why is it that AV can draw so little from it? He's constantly saying that lines 2-4 have to score, but does he have a plan to bring that to fruition? I would guess not because if he had, then we wouldn't be seeing those lines struggle to produce offense once again. It just seems like he is so confident in his plan that any faltering offense is attributed to the players not executing the plan, and not the plan itself. This has been going on for years! The offensive is Sedin-centered, and often times they are the only line going.


My hope is that MG gets a new voice in here by the 20 game mark, if things don't change. Even if it is just to tide the team over for this year alone.

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10-26-2011, 08:30 AM
  #120
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As I stated last week--Nucks always start slow

he is something I said this time last year

"Luongo will take the canucks on a hell of run in the new year"

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10-26-2011, 08:40 AM
  #121
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A defensively-minded coach can't get his team to play defense until November... Really? That's what it comes down to. People want to string up Luongo. And it's true that he deserves it, but so does AV. the coverage problems are on him if anyone. Were the defensive breakdowns Luongo's doing as well? Nope. AV's message is taking longer and longer to sink in. Perhaps the players are tuning him out now?


I already suspect his offensive "scheme" is a sham. The Sedins have carried the offense for this team for years and AV has exploited that strength. But in the playoffs when the Sedins have to play defense and the rest of the squad have to do something offensively, the team struggles greatly. Coincidence? I think not.


To tell the truth I'm not that concerned about this team. It should still make the playoffs and still do reasonably well. I just think the team's talent level is being wasted by an archaic D-fixated coach. There's just too much talent for this team to struggle like it does. And now if the team can't even rely on it's defense to see their offensive woes through... well then you get what we have now. It's disturbing that the defensive play of the team, an AV calling-card, is in shambles. It's just downright unacceptable. What strength does AV have as a coach if he can't even claim that his defense can be relied upon? Answer: No strength at all.


It's no longer about getting player X, or move this player here or there. Most GMs would kill to have a roster like this. Why is it that AV can draw so little from it? He's constantly saying that lines 2-4 have to score, but does he have a plan to bring that to fruition? I would guess not because if he had, then we wouldn't be seeing those lines struggle to produce offense once again. It just seems like he is so confident in his plan that any faltering offense is attributed to the players not executing the plan, and not the plan itself. This has been going on for years! The offensive is Sedin-centered, and often times they are the only line going.


My hope is that MG gets a new voice in here by the 20 game mark, if things don't change. Even if it is just to tide the team over for this year alone.
Pretty sure MG is aware of this issue. The problem is finding a replacement that's better than AV. Need to remember this is a significant risk too. Unfortunately, it'll take nothing short of missing the playoffs or choking in the first/2nd round for AV to get fired. If MG fires AV now and the replacement coach is unable to get the team past the 2nd round/WCF, he will get a lot of ****.

I should also mention that outside of the Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, we don't have a single player capable of creating offense. Some of our secondary offense were hurt throughout last season as well. I do remember that we were a pretty offensively potent team 2 seasons ago though. I don't think we had any trouble scoring, the issue was mainly defense. If we had the 2011 blueline combined with our 2010 forwards, we probably would've won a championship.

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10-26-2011, 08:56 AM
  #122
Free Torts
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
He's not, he's running around hammering our players, he destroyed Volpatti who is our ''tough guy'' which is laughable.
Eager ran around like an idiot and took two stupid, unnecessary penalties. He was far from effective last night - something about playing Vancouver gets his blood boiling and he turns his brain off.

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10-26-2011, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Wilch View Post
Pretty sure MG is aware of this issue. The problem is finding a replacement that's better than AV. Need to remember this is a significant risk too. Unfortunately, it'll take nothing short of missing the playoffs or choking in the first/2nd round for AV to get fired. If MG fires AV now and the replacement coach is unable to get the team past the 2nd round/WCF, he will get a lot of ****.

I should also mention that outside of the Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, we don't have a single player capable of creating offense. Some of our secondary offense were hurt throughout last season as well. I do remember that we were a pretty offensively potent team 2 seasons ago though. I don't think we had any trouble scoring, the issue was mainly defense. If we had the 2011 blueline combined with our 2010 forwards, we probably would've won a championship.
You'd have a tough time even including Kesler at the moment.

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10-26-2011, 09:05 AM
  #124
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You'd have a tough time even including Kesler at the moment.
I was talking about last season. Kesler should still be a force this season. I'm looking for him to pot between 30 to 40 goals.

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10-26-2011, 09:05 AM
  #125
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Does anyone else feel that Hodgson would better suit the second line than Higgins? I wouldn't mind if they experiment with the American line a bit longer but I'd like to see Hodgson centering Keser and Booth... Hodgson has the playmaking ability that I feel none of those three have. With the exception of one game I've loved Hodgson's game..he's been trying to use his linemates and when that fails he starts to hold onto the puck and shoot more.

This would move Higgins to the third line and I feel that Higgins-Lappy can be a good pair to anchor that third line, this move essentially bumps Malhotra to the fourth line; Malhotra and Hansen could anchor the fourth line ..they already have some solid chemistry, and to be honest, they could use reduced ice time until they start playing to their potential.
I'd also like to see this. When we acquired Booth, I thought Higgins would be the one to get bumped. I was thinking more Booth-Kesler-Hodgson however, although I'm all for trying Hodgson at center with Kesler taking the draws. Having both Kesler and Booth on the forecheck will open up a lot of space for Hodgson, and like you said he seems very good at using his team mates and finding them in open ice. I'm sure this will be attempted at some point, it's just a matter of time.

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