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A true 1st line scorer to NSH. (No WEBER and SUTER)

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Old
10-26-2011, 12:07 PM
  #126
TacticalTanev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
The To be in the top 30 (1st Line) Average last three seasons.

LW 49Pts
Center 54 Pts
RW 48 PTS

You think you get a 1st liner at there position for 1st Rounder?

Or do you mean top 15 for position
LW 61 pts
C 69Pts
RW 59 Pts

What is obvious continually on this site. Is the complete lack of understanding what is the start of a 1st line player.

You want top 15 you are giving up 3 assests.

Guys in around 15
LW Vanek, Blake, Smyth, Penner, Bourque, Kulemin , Morrow, Semin
C M. Richards, Backstrom, M. Koivu, lecavalier, Getzlaf, Toews, E. Staal, Spezza, Roy,
RW Dumont, Seteguchi, Hemsky, Havlat, Doan, Hossa, D Brown, Franzen

Maybe you get 30-20 players. Top 15 trades are called blockbusters.
Although the grammar is a bit off, good post.

Honestly, if I was Nashville, and not making the playoffs, which seems very possible:

1. Trade Weber at the deadline for some awesome prospect package.
2. Develop those prospects into 1st/2nd line scorers.
3. ?????
4. Profit

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10-26-2011, 12:09 PM
  #127
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Blum + Hornqvist + 2 1st round picks for Jason spezza?

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10-26-2011, 12:10 PM
  #128
Drake1588
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No matter how belligerent you frame your responses, OP, you still can't establish that untouchables list and land true first-line players.

You too easily dismiss the payroll concerns as well, in my opinion. Nashville has plenty of cap space... but also a budget. How close they are to their budget ceiling is perhaps known only to ownership and Nashville's excellent general manager. I suspect they are not far from their payroll targets, however.

You can package futures with Blum and Hornqvist, and see what that lands you. Plenty of teams will try to pawn off second liners and not true first liners, though.

The biggest problem is that in October, teams aren't looking to deal first liners. They can't replace those guys from within. Few are available, especially in a quality-for-quantity trade. By establishing that list of untouchables, Nashville is setting exactly those parameters, however.

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10-26-2011, 12:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Wow, so lets get this straight, you want to offer a large package of lessers for one greater??? Yeah, that happens all the time. Offering up a star player and getting back a bunch of middling players/prospects is something that other GM's just line up to do. It happens every year and almost every month. : :


Neal isn't a 1st line player, he's a mid-level 2nd liner and that's being pretty generous. Blum and a 1st might be able to get you a borderline 1st liner but not a true legit star forward and personally I can't think of any forwards you could get with your lesser package that another team would be willing to move. IDK, maybe the Rangers would be willing to trade Dubinski but I laugh at people who call him a "1st liner", he's just not that skilled.

I suggest offering Blum and your 1st for the Dub. I think that smart Rangers fans will balk a little and cry that they aren't getting enough but that it will just be to play you and then they will "reluctantly" accept the trade and laugh behind your back (kind of what Pens fans did with the Neil trade when they kwen that Golo was nothing more than an over-rated 2nd pairing dman).
For the Predators anybody who can score more then 50 points is a top line player, and that's what the OP is asking for, he obviously knows we aren't going to get a Getzlaf or Kessel without Weber or Suter, we need a mid-level 2nd liner like Neal.

And I really don't see how it's that hard to understand that Weber and Suter are not for trade and that (almost) everybody else is on the table.

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10-26-2011, 12:13 PM
  #130
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The players you are offering are decent but Blum and a 1st won't get you a top centreman.

How about Blum for Gagner from Edm.

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10-26-2011, 12:15 PM
  #131
Drake1588
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I don't think it was obvious at all that when the OP said he sought a "true first-line scorer," what he really meant to say was, "mid-level second liner." The latter is certainly attainable.

Look at Calgary, for example. They are struggling and nearly desperate... but Iginla isn't available. They are dangling a Rene Bourque. There is the difference between the title's, 'true first-line scorer,' and the revised, 'mid-level second liner,' tag.

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10-26-2011, 12:16 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
No matter how belligerent you frame your responses, OP, you still can't establish that untouchables list and land true first-line players.

You too easily dismiss the payroll concerns as well, in my opinion. Nashville has plenty of cap space... but also a budget. How close they are to their budget ceiling is perhaps known only to ownership and Nashville's excellent general manager. I suspect they are not far from their payroll targets, however.

You can package futures with Blum and Hornqvist, and see what that lands you. Plenty of teams will try to pawn off second liners and not true first liners, though.

The biggest problem is that in October, teams aren't looking to deal first liners. They can't replace those guys from within. Few are available, especially in a quality-for-quantity trade. By establishing that list of untouchables, Nashville is setting exactly those parameters, however.
Actually our "budget ceiling" is around midpoint, and after Weber's raise we are only .5 over the floor, so we've got a ways to go. Once again money is not the issue.

I think a lot of Preds fans are overreacting over a lot of big losses and just want change for the sake of change, I say we have a ways to go before we can sum up this team.

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10-26-2011, 12:17 PM
  #133
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only player you have a shot at landing would be a bloated contract like gomez or drury.

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10-26-2011, 12:18 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Frea_K View Post
only player you have a shot at landing would be a bloated contract like gomez or drury.
Didn't Drury retire? That would probably be the worst trade I've seen in a while.

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10-26-2011, 12:19 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
No we wouldn't. Krejci is 24yrs old & just led the NHL in playoff scoring, on route to leading the Bruins to their first Stanley Cup in 39 years. Will Hornqvist or Blum do that? No deal. Suter for Krejci & we can talk...otherwise go after the Oli Jokinens & Scott Gomez' of the world.
That's at least partially because of how many games he played. He was 21st in ppg amongst players with at least 4 games played; 8th amongst players with at least 10 games played. Not saying he isn't good, but I don't think he's utterly irreplaceable. Bergeron was only 0.05 ppg behind him, and Seguin will be a 1 or 2C soon, if he isn't already. Personally, I'd rather have a grade A defensive prospect, a winger who's hit 30 goals (on an offensively challenged Preds squad), and a 1st round pick in the deepest draft since '03, than force one of Krejci, Bergeron, or Seguin to play on the third line.

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10-26-2011, 12:19 PM
  #136
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If the payroll is lower than ownership is prepared to go, then that certainly helps. Poile would still need to find a team ready to deal first liners for what are not first liners in return, though. You can do that later in the year, even as early as American Thanksgiving. October is tough, though. Most teams are waiting to see what they have before they make moves — and most of those late-November moves will be a shuffling of secondary players to give their teams a spark, not an overhaul.

Nashville is the team that it is, to me, perpetually blessed with well-developed goaltending and a wealth of riches on defense, and starved for offense. That fluctuates from time to time, but that is Poile's model.

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10-26-2011, 12:19 PM
  #137
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1st-line players don't come cheap. Everybody knows that Nashville needs goal-scorers and the only thing of value that Nashville has to offer is a Vezina-caliber goalie and Norris-caliber defenseman. The only way Nashville can improve their offense via trade is to sacrifice one of their assets on defense.

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10-26-2011, 12:21 PM
  #138
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Well, that seems a little extreme. They can add players who could help, without dipping into the Weber, Suter, Rinne pool, but probably not true first liners.

I like the idea of Rene Bourque for Nashville, personally. Montreal might also consider moving a Cammalleri or Kostitsyn. There are assets in Nashville outside the listed untouchables list to land one of those players. Just not first liners.

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10-26-2011, 12:22 PM
  #139
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1st and Hornqvist for Cammalleri and Yannick Weber

or 1st and Geoffrion for Cammy.

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10-26-2011, 12:25 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Guardian452 View Post
1st-line players don't come cheap. Everybody knows that Nashville needs goal-scorers and the only thing of value that Nashville has to offer is a Vezina-caliber goalie and Norris-caliber defenseman. The only way Nashville can improve their offense via trade is to sacrifice one of their assets on defense.
I think you're vastly underrating our prospect pool, we've consistently been pumping out great prospects, and, while it doesn't mean that much, we're almost always a lock for HF's top 5 prospect pools. To say we only have Weber, Suter and Rinne to trade is kind of selling us short.

I'm sure a few teams like Ottawa, or Columbus wouldn't mind trading a veteran top 6er for Blum, Josi, Ekholm, etc. and a 1st this mid season.

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10-26-2011, 12:27 PM
  #141
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I'd rather trade our elite talent for an elite forward and stop dinking around trying to make a bunch of 50 point players. I don't think adding another 50-60 point player is going to help us very much.

Trade Weber or Suter for a difference maker. I want someone who can change a game in the offensive zone.

I'm a fan of the Weber-Parise or Suter-Statsny proposals.

The games have been downright discouraging lately.

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10-26-2011, 12:29 PM
  #142
AMDZen
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Kobasew for Hornqvist

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10-26-2011, 12:31 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
1st and Hornqvist for Cammalleri and Yannick Weber
Counter: Shea Weber and a 1st, for Gill

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10-26-2011, 12:33 PM
  #144
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Wow. Some people need to stop being so ignorant and actually look at this logically. Did NJ give up a star to get Kovalchuck? What did Pittsburgh give up for Hossa? Exactly. It rarely happens in the NHL where there is a star for star trade(Ex: Suter for 1st line talent.) Typically it's 3-4 pieces for something much bigger, so Nashville can definetely get a 1st line center without giving up the untouchables the OP listed.

While this is true, you still need to give up top quality to be able to land a big named 1st line player WHO IS SIGNED BEYOND BEING JUST A RENTAL (remember, the Pens were UNABLE to resign Hossa so they spent a whole lot for just a few months of Hossa and BTW, another poster has laready said that the "leftovers" offered up by the OP could only land a "rental" on an expiring contract just like your examples of Hossa and Kovy). Philly got Voracek + the 8th OA for Carter. Blum may be comparable to voracek but nothing left on the table compares to the 8th OA (which became Couturier). The Flyers got the best prospect not in the NHL and a young 2nd/3rd line physical power forward in return for Mike Richards. I don't see anything left on Nashvilles "availablility" list that is comparable to that package.


Again, it's not just "these players are more than enough to get a star scoring 1st liner" it's more about what teams have one they are willing to trade???? Top line players just don't come available very often and then there is usually a bidding war for them. In the flyers case just this year, we were supposedly in talks with the Jets, Leafs and CBJ regarding Carter and went with the Jackets deal. For Richards we were in talks with at least the Leafs and Kings and went with the kings deal. A lot of teams were inquiring about Forsberg, Hossa and Kovy when they were available at the trade deadline.

Here's a list of pending UFA's who MAY be available at the trade deadline if their teams are out of the playoff picture (they may or may not fit your bill as 1st liners, IDC): Blake, Teemu, Koivu, Boyes, Jokinen, Hejduk, Smyth, Hemsky, AK47, Parise, Rolston, Jagr & Doan.

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Old
10-26-2011, 12:33 PM
  #145
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Kobasew for Hornqvist
That doesn't make sense.

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10-26-2011, 12:34 PM
  #146
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I think you're vastly underrating our prospect pool, we've consistently been pumping out great prospects, and, while it doesn't mean that much, we're almost always a lock for HF's top 5 prospect pools. To say we only have Weber, Suter and Rinne to trade is kind of selling us short.

I'm sure a few teams like Ottawa, or Columbus wouldn't mind trading a veteran top 6er for Blum, Josi, Ekholm, etc. and a 1st this mid season.
Our veteran top six consists of Alfie, Spezza, Michalek. Our of those Michalek is the only one I could possibly see going anywhere. But not for a defensive prospects, we have a good number of those and already have a logjam on defense. We much like Nashville have defense prospects up the ying yang, and missing forwards.

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10-26-2011, 12:37 PM
  #147
Drake1588
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You can trade futures for currently-productive talent... but not very easily in October. You can definitely do this at the trade deadline, but even in the mid-season deals, futures are rarely appealing for struggling teams looking to shake up their rosters.

The new reality in the NHL is that rosters get shaken up at the draft, in free agency, and at the trade deadline. The kinds of mid-season deals that occur, in addition to being few and far between, tend to swap apples for apples.

Can Nashville leverage its excellent prospect pool as well as picks to land players to help them in the playoffs? Yes, definitely. Can they do this in October? November? It gets a lot harder depending on the time of year.

Right now, every team feels the season is young, a few bounces away from righting the ship, maybe a tweak trade to shake up the room. Everyone is still fairly optimistic. Few teams are packing it in. Yet if a team is trading a first liner or even a 50-point player for futures, for players who can't help you today, you are making this year's team worse. You're packing it in. No one is doing that in October.

Prospects and picks won't land 50-point players in the Fall. Later, yes. Right now, you need to deal talent. Not necessarily all-world talent, but talent nonetheless to land players not quite at first liner levels.

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10-26-2011, 12:39 PM
  #148
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You could give Andrei Kostitsyn a go as a 1st liner.
The last 4 years he has averaged 47 pts per 80 games which would finnish 32-30th for LW.
He has been 22nd to 36th in his full seasons.

He has played 2nd LW behind:
Tanguay, Higgins, Cammalleri

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10-26-2011, 12:43 PM
  #149
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That's at least partially because of how many games he played. He was 21st in ppg amongst players with at least 4 games played; 8th amongst players with at least 10 games played. Not saying he isn't good, but I don't think he's utterly irreplaceable. Bergeron was only 0.05 ppg behind him, and Seguin will be a 1 or 2C soon, if he isn't already. Personally, I'd rather have a grade A defensive prospect, a winger who's hit 30 goals (on an offensively challenged Preds squad), and a 1st round pick in the deepest draft since '03, than force one of Krejci, Bergeron, or Seguin to play on the third line.
see: Dougie Hamilton

see: Lucic, Bergeron, Seguin, Horton, Marchand are all capable of scoring 25 to 35 goals.. what Boston lacks if anything is an ELITE goal scorer. IF Boston was trading Krejci, it'd be in a package for such a player. Hornqvist doesnt fill that role, & one could argue he is just a younger version of Michael Ryder (whom we just let walk ufa)

see: Speculation. Regardless, our prospect pool is rather stocked. One can never have enough propects but it is certainly not enough of a need where we would consider trading Krejci.

You will not get Krejci unless Weber or Suter are invloved. Your team lacks top end talent, the only players of value are those two. Ofcourse a package of 1st pick, Hornqvist, Blum could net you a nice player, but nowhere near the status of a 24yr old David Krejci.

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10-26-2011, 12:44 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
You can trade futures for currently-productive talent... but not very easily in October. You can definitely do this at the trade deadline, but even in the mid-season deals, futures are rarely appealing for struggling teams looking to shake up their rosters.

The new reality in the NHL is that rosters get shaken up at the draft, in free agency, and at the trade deadline. The kinds of mid-season deals that occur, in addition to being few and far between, tend to swap apples for apples.

Can Nashville leverage its excellent prospect pool as well as picks to land players to help them in the playoffs? Yes, definitely. Can they do this in October? November? It gets a lot harder depending on the time of year.

Right now, every team feels the season is young, a few bounces away from righting the ship, maybe a tweak trade to shake up the room. Everyone is still fairly optimistic. Few teams are packing it in. Yet if a team is trading a first liner or even a 50-point player for futures, for players who can't help you today, you are making this year's team worse. You're packing it in. No one is doing that in October.
I agree, I think preds fans are just overreacting to a poor start to the season. You should check out the Predators board, the sky is falling over there.
We don't necessarily need to make a trade right away, but this is a big year for us, and if we don't make the playoffs then Poile and Trotz are on the hot seat, especially if we haven't made any progress with our FAs. The season is still young, plenty of hockey to be played.

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