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Marco van Basten or Ronaldo ?

View Poll Results: Marco van Basten or Ronaldo ?
Marco van Basten 23 63.89%
Ronaldo 13 36.11%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-04-2004, 08:05 AM
  #26
rangers
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Ronaldo

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Old
09-04-2004, 08:05 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
read my post carefully Evilo i did take conditioning into account.

players have always been able to take on defences and score, what do you think Maradona was? Shevchenko was doing that at the same time as Ronaldo. No Ronaldo hasn't revolutionised anything thats a pipe dream.

What has he revolutionised the ability to dribble through players and score a goal from anywhere on the pitch? A "power forward" i'm sorry but there was a Brazilian forward who played JUST before Ronaldo and if anything he was a "power forward" who was it? Romario.
Romario was never a power forward and was a finesse player. I don't know where you take that from .
Ronaldo has one of the best finishing touch ever. Just witness WC02, where even as a shadow of himself, he scored a bunch of goals thanks to placement and scoring touch.
Ronaldo became the first player to dominate an entire game simply by taking the ball around midfield and being able to dribble through an entire defense thanks to some incredible technique and amazing physical force. He was just a freak of nature.
But as I said, you have to couple that with a great scoring touch.
Both he and Van Basten are top 20 ever, no doubt.
The only sure thing in this debate is that it is a close comparison.

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Old
09-04-2004, 08:07 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgian Fan
But when someone with the talent and mind of Pele (Maradona/Cruijff/...) was born today and enjoyed the training kids today receive he would still be a totally dominating force.
You have to take natural physical ability into account.
Maradona and Platini were never natural born athletes.
Not everybody can become fast and powerful through conditionning.

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Old
09-04-2004, 08:15 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
You have to take natural physical ability into account.
Maradona and Platini were never natural born athletes.
Not everybody can become fast and powerful through conditionning.
I agree on speed (but for instance Maradona had alot of natural speed, his first few steps with the ball at his feet are about the greatest ever I would guess)
But it isn't necessary to achieve the top (Zidane isn't a speedster either)

But the strenght department...
They obviously wouldn't become human tanks like Ronaldo is /was, but with the current training regime they would be sufficiently strong to hold their own. And their technique would also be a lot better than what is normal these days (because of their surplpus of talent) so they would still dominate, IMO of course.
And of course, you can't take the football IQ of guys like Platini and Maradona out of the equation.
A guy like Raul isn't fast or strong either, but he has been able to be on the top for a long time due to his football IQ and technique so I don't see why those even more talented players couldn't do that.

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Old
09-04-2004, 09:32 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanGirl
Marco Van Bastenn

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Old
09-04-2004, 10:54 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgian Fan
I agree on speed (but for instance Maradona had alot of natural speed, his first few steps with the ball at his feet are about the greatest ever I would guess)
But it isn't necessary to achieve the top (Zidane isn't a speedster either)

But the strenght department...
They obviously wouldn't become human tanks like Ronaldo is /was, but with the current training regime they would be sufficiently strong to hold their own. And their technique would also be a lot better than what is normal these days (because of their surplpus of talent) so they would still dominate, IMO of course.
And of course, you can't take the football IQ of guys like Platini and Maradona out of the equation.
A guy like Raul isn't fast or strong either, but he has been able to be on the top for a long time due to his football IQ and technique so I don't see why those even more talented players couldn't do that.
That's debatable.
Because IMO, the general football IQ has gone way up. Players are much more aware tactically and defenses are way more effective.
The level of technique has gone way up as well, and these guys wouldn't be supremely gifted compared to some others.
And Ronaldo had more impact in today's football than Platini/Maradona/Cruyff/co could have IMO.

What makes these greats "all time greats" is that they were ahead of their time.

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Old
09-04-2004, 01:18 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Ronaldo became the first player to dominate an entire game simply by taking the ball around midfield and being able to dribble through an entire defense thanks to some incredible technique and amazing physical force. He was just a freak of nature.
I said this about 10 posts ago you must have missed it but I said you put the (JOHAN ) Cruyff's, Maradona's, Zico's players who in their generation had the same affect of being able to take the ball in midfield and turn the game on it's head and put them through the fitness regime they go through now plus give them equipment thats ten times better for ball control plus a lighter ball and you'll see the same amazing achievements, Cryuff was always three passes ahead of the game, Maradona's dribble against England, well i ain't seen Ronaldo do that against high standard competition especially as the rules forbid the two footed slide tackle.

no evilo the forwards now are much better protected than ever before, the equipment is improved, the mentalitty towards fitness is improved, you take those changes and put them back there and those elite players become even greater. Imagine what a physically stronger Cruyff would have done? or a physically stronger Maradona would have done? strength or no strength those guys were able to do kickups using a golf ball haven't seen Ronaldo do that yet.

And talking of fitness those players I have mentioned weren't fit, but the game was slower due to the ball and equipment and the opposition weren't fit either. Yeah take Ronaldo back into those days where fitness isn't paramount and I'd be suprised if a player like that even existed even he wouldn't exist in that frame.

Yes he is a new type of player because he's built like a tank. But does that make him on the level of those greats? No unfortunately not. Rummenige I believe was the first winger the game saw doesn't make him the greatest winger ever as players like Sivori and Matthews were more gifted. To me Ronaldo hasn't proved anything, that Brazil team that won the cup in 1994 was down to Dunga more than any other player on the pitch, you saw the difference in 1998 when he wasn't even playing near the same capacity the French beat the Brazilians in the middle of the pitch didn't see Ronaldo playing in the middle of the pitch, he played well but then only up front and in that tournament there were plenty of others who also played well up front such as Davor Suker and Dennis Bergkamp. As for 2002 Brazil were extremely lucky to beat Belgium that was a game they should have lost (but they won it). Ronaldo was already half the player he was, but Brazil as a team were a very lucky team throughout the tournament starting from the filthy crap Rivaldo pulled against Turkey right through to the manner in which they scored their first goal in the final against Germany.

Also van Basten was a better player for longer than Ronaldo and as far as I'm concerned was more of a liability to leave loose around the box the guy was able to score from anywhere in the box!

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Old
09-04-2004, 04:14 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
As for 2002 Brazil were extremely lucky to beat Belgium that was a game they should have lost (but they won it).



If not for referee Prendergast from Jamaica of all places (think of the high profile matches he faces on a weekly basis ) Brazil would have been out of the world cup, yet everyone seems to have forgotten about this.

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Old
09-04-2004, 04:18 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
I said this about 10 posts ago you must have missed it but I said you put the (JOHAN ) Cruyff's, Maradona's, Zico's players who in their generation had the same affect of being able to take the ball in midfield and turn the game on it's head and put them through the fitness regime they go through now plus give them equipment thats ten times better for ball control plus a lighter ball and you'll see the same amazing achievements, Cryuff was always three passes ahead of the game, Maradona's dribble against England, well i ain't seen Ronaldo do that against high standard competition especially as the rules forbid the two footed slide tackle.

no evilo the forwards now are much better protected than ever before, the equipment is improved, the mentalitty towards fitness is improved, you take those changes and put them back there and those elite players become even greater. Imagine what a physically stronger Cruyff would have done? or a physically stronger Maradona would have done? strength or no strength those guys were able to do kickups using a golf ball haven't seen Ronaldo do that yet.

And talking of fitness those players I have mentioned weren't fit, but the game was slower due to the ball and equipment and the opposition weren't fit either. Yeah take Ronaldo back into those days where fitness isn't paramount and I'd be suprised if a player like that even existed even he wouldn't exist in that frame.

Yes he is a new type of player because he's built like a tank. But does that make him on the level of those greats? No unfortunately not. Rummenige I believe was the first winger the game saw doesn't make him the greatest winger ever as players like Sivori and Matthews were more gifted. To me Ronaldo hasn't proved anything, that Brazil team that won the cup in 1994 was down to Dunga more than any other player on the pitch, you saw the difference in 1998 when he wasn't even playing near the same capacity the French beat the Brazilians in the middle of the pitch didn't see Ronaldo playing in the middle of the pitch, he played well but then only up front and in that tournament there were plenty of others who also played well up front such as Davor Suker and Dennis Bergkamp. As for 2002 Brazil were extremely lucky to beat Belgium that was a game they should have lost (but they won it). Ronaldo was already half the player he was, but Brazil as a team were a very lucky team throughout the tournament starting from the filthy crap Rivaldo pulled against Turkey right through to the manner in which they scored their first goal in the final against Germany.

Also van Basten was a better player for longer than Ronaldo and as far as I'm concerned was more of a liability to leave loose around the box the guy was able to score from anywhere in the box!
Scroll up. Today's footballers have more technique and tactical sense. I don't think you can only single out fitness as an advantage of today's players. THey're just better in ever capacity.

On Ronaldo, you're just plain wrong, sorry.
Ronaldo hasn't proven anything?
Two world cups, one final, several Copa Americas, goleador in Italy and Spain, several MVPs, what else can you prove?
In fact he's got a better resume than most players in the history of the game.

And I don't know if you've watched Ronaldo play in his prime, but the guy could score from anywhere.
To make a comparison with basketball, Ronaldo was a Shaq with scoring touch. A new kind of athlete, overpowering and with great scoring touch.


Last edited by Evilo: 09-04-2004 at 04:23 PM.
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Old
09-04-2004, 05:04 PM
  #35
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Wow, just looked at the results and it's 19-10 in favour of Van Basten.

I won't vote but IM there's not so much between them.


I agree with Evilo though that Ronaldo is being treated a bit infair here.

In 97-98 he was an absolute machine, a human tank with everything from pace to strenght to technique to scoring touch. He has scored more than one goal where he picked the ball up on his own half and run past 6 players and then finishing it off. And it was not in a beer league but in Italy and Spain, the two strongest leagues in the world where he was doing that.

In 94 Ronaldo obviously had nothing to do with the world cup as he didn't even play a single minute.
In 98 he came in after an injury riddled seasonand still delivered.
In 02 he was te only player in the tournament that was not exhausted from the seaosn and on 80% of his ability in his prime he won the golden boot (I think?) so he must be doing something right.

Top scorer in Italy and Spain, one World cup and a few MVP's those are not the accolades of someone who hasn't proven anything. That's totally showing a lack of respect for the unique talent Ronaldo was. (he is still decent right now but only at 85% of what he was)

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Old
09-04-2004, 05:22 PM
  #36
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i'll be up front and honest here that as far as the Brazilian squad after the **** they've pulled in recent years i have developed a really sour taste for them, but asides from that I've never thought Ronaldo was elite enough to be considered in the greatest ever category he simply isn't THAT much of a gamebreaker for me.

For me the greatest category goes to a player who dictates the team direction when the ball is with or without him. Cruyff, Pele, Maradona, Platini they all had this trait. Ronaldo has never had this for me and so would never go into the greatest of all time, van Basten however as an offensive output has, he was always a target to build the attack around much like Di Stefano and Puskas were.

I place Ronaldo in the same category as Linekar and Kempes. Players who were amazing but we're not enough to be considered into the great category for me. Even van Basten borderlines it for me.

This is for me the difference between Zidane and Ronaldo. imo and i'm not French so no bias opinions here, Zidane slots into that category of greatness. He's the instigator and Ronaldo never is.

Again I probably hold a greater preference towards playmakers rather than strikers

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Old
09-04-2004, 05:25 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
i'll be up front and honest here that as far as the Brazilian squad after the **** they've pulled in recent years i have developed a really sour taste for them, but asides from that I've never thought Ronaldo was elite enough to be considered in the greatest ever category he simply isn't THAT much of a gamebreaker for me.
That's obviously wrong. Try to get your hand on a few videos from his Barcelona period or his first year at Inter, if that's not a game breaker than nothing is.

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09-04-2004, 05:53 PM
  #38
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Van Halen

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09-04-2004, 06:08 PM
  #39
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Van Basten.

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Old
09-05-2004, 01:48 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabi_sultan
i'll be up front and honest here that as far as the Brazilian squad after the **** they've pulled in recent years i have developed a really sour taste for them, but asides from that I've never thought Ronaldo was elite enough to be considered in the greatest ever category he simply isn't THAT much of a gamebreaker for me.

For me the greatest category goes to a player who dictates the team direction when the ball is with or without him. Cruyff, Pele, Maradona, Platini they all had this trait. Ronaldo has never had this for me and so would never go into the greatest of all time, van Basten however as an offensive output has, he was always a target to build the attack around much like Di Stefano and Puskas were.

I place Ronaldo in the same category as Linekar and Kempes. Players who were amazing but we're not enough to be considered into the great category for me. Even van Basten borderlines it for me.

This is for me the difference between Zidane and Ronaldo. imo and i'm not French so no bias opinions here, Zidane slots into that category of greatness. He's the instigator and Ronaldo never is.

Again I probably hold a greater preference towards playmakers rather than strikers
I'm french, I love Zidane, but Zidane never dominated as much as Ronaldo did.
Of course, Zidane was great his whole career so he's a great one too. But not greater than Ronaldo.

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09-05-2004, 01:49 AM
  #41
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Oh and I hate brazilians too!

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Old
09-05-2004, 04:48 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Today's footballers have more technique and tactical sense.
Johan Cruijff says exactly the opposite and IMO it has a grain of truth. The play is much faster nowadays, so everything looks better but many players simply don't posses the simple basics of soccer. Overall, technique and tactical sense has declined IMO.

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09-05-2004, 05:22 AM
  #43
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Well I highly disagree.
Tactical sense has been way developped, which is a reason why the premiership has been a better league lately.
And I can find you ten wizards with the ball that won't amount much because they're not good enough tactically and physically.
It actually is more difficult to be good tactically and technically when the game is faster. Today's players can do that.

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09-05-2004, 05:32 AM
  #44
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The Premier league has been better lately because more foreigners are playing over there compared with the past. They have totally changed the game. The days of kicking the ball forward are over, although it took some time before Liverpool had figured that out as well.

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09-05-2004, 02:37 PM
  #45
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It's also got better thanks to better managers and a better tactical sense as a whole.
Of course foreigners had a lot to do with that.

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09-05-2004, 02:38 PM
  #46
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Van Basten.

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Old
09-05-2004, 03:13 PM
  #47
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DAMN FOREIGNERS RUINED OUR HUMP AND HOOF FOOTBALL :mad:







(thank you for ruining it )

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