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What are the core issues with the CH?

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Old
10-26-2011, 03:56 AM
  #1
Sir Jacques Demers
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What are the core issues with the CH?

Looking at this year's start, as well as reasons for playoff exits in the last 10 years, I'd like to get your opinions on the core issues with the organization.

I'm going to make a list of problems that keep recurring, in good times and bad, feel free to comment on them... and lets keep it short and sweet. This is not to open a specific debate, but rather get a quick & dirty feel for where you guys think the issues are.

Of the following recurring issues in the last 10 years, which ones are most true, and most problematic for the team?


- The team's policy of secrecy and lack of transparency with the public (general attitude of a constant struggle with media & fans)

- failure to bring/keep a top6 center with size.

- unwillingness to make big moves at the trade deadline

- consistently signing 3rd line & 5th D- players at the start of the season and sell it as a "solution" to last year's problems

- failure to recognize the need to add depth in case of injuries

- unwillingness to sign gritty players, and/or enforcers

- Playing fans for fools, and generally not taking any action whilst revenues are flowing, unless the situation becomes truly dire.

- "mindset" problems that prevent the team from tanking to rebuild, from attracting free agents, and selecting non-francophone staff


Last edited by Sir Jacques Demers: 10-26-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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Old
10-26-2011, 05:18 AM
  #2
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The mentality that speed and skill is the only sure fire way to success, we have become too unidimensional with most players offering similar skill sets. There is no balance on this club between toughness, size and finesse, has gotten better in more recent times, but more work needs to be done.

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10-26-2011, 06:28 AM
  #3
WestIslander
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The biggest failure is letting politics, language and companies that advertise with the team control who is hired when it comes to Management, Coaching and even the staff with the team and Bell Centre.

If I were Geoff Molson, I would tell the media and sponsors that we are going to hire Mike Babcock or Steve Yzerman because we want to win the cup and nothing else matters, only winning and having the best of the best in every aspect of every department.

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10-26-2011, 07:11 AM
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It's the pressure of playing for such an intense fanbase. Unless you have nerves of steel, you probably shouldn't play here. The drive to win is always there I'm sure, but when you get in front of 21,273 people who are either booing your play or your home country's anthem, it gets to be a little intimidating. That and the injuries are the worst. We don't have a player besides Max who shows that they're more than excited to get out of the ice and destroy. Hockey itself needs to break down the walls of boring, typical answering. I'd love for just one of our players to freak out on camera and show a little heart. I want them to convince me that they're there to win, and won't take a beating lying down.

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10-26-2011, 07:14 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Demers View Post
Loo
- The team's policy of secrecy and lack of transparency with the public (general attitude of a constant struggle with media & fans)
Please tell me Jacques how the **** this impacts the performance of the team on the ice. Thanks.

I have never seen better whining than this. "Mindset" problems? Refusal to sign top tier players like Markov, Cole, Gionta and Cammalleri? Refusal to lose on purpose? Hiring only francophone guys like Bob Gainey? Unwillingness to sign enforcers like Laracque? Failure to bring in centres with size like Eller? Failure to add depth in case of injuries, like Diaz, Emelin and Campoli?

Over 10 years the team has had 3 different owners, at least 5 coaches and 3 or 4 GM's. Your biggest failure is lumping everyone in as one.

This year's core problems can be summed up in one word: Luck. Markov having a setback, an injury replacement in Campoli (that you seem oblivious to) getting hurt in the first game, Cammy, Gomez and Maxpac all getting hurt, some stupid plays at key moments that end up in the back of the net (like Gorges and Subban giveaways), some crappy refereeing and bad breaks at not cashing in goals at key times.

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10-26-2011, 07:15 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
If I were Geoff Molson, I would tell the media and sponsors that we are going to hire Mike Babcock or Steve Yzerman because we want to win the cup and nothing else matters, only winning and having the best of the best in every aspect of every department.
How many cups has Steve Yzerman won as a GM?

The days of Ronald Corey dictating personnel moves and hiring his Molson buddies like Rejean Houle are long since over.

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10-26-2011, 07:28 AM
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Sir Jacques Demers
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I don't agree with your assessment CGG.

The start of the year has been unlucky, thats for sure, we deserve more than 4pts so far. That doesn't mean the team hasn't been doing a lot of things wrong - much like it has in the last few years.

I never said they team refused to sign top tier players. I said they refused add a top 6 center , and that they frequently added bottom 6 players as a "solution" to problems.

Eller is a prospect and not a solution to out top6 big center needs for the time being.

As for dealing with the media and fans, I believe that the team sometimes treats them as adversaries just as much as opposing teams, and it negatively affects their hockey decisions.

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10-26-2011, 07:47 AM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Jacques Demers View Post
As for dealing with the media and fans, I believe that the team sometimes treats them as adversaries just as much as opposing teams, and it negatively affects their hockey decisions.
I don't get this. Is there an example of a move the team has made just to annoy fans or something negative that happened because Gauthier doesn't give hour-by-hour updates on Markov's injury status? You're basically implying that management is willing to sacrifice on ice results just to give a big middle finger to the fans or to the media, and I don't think that's the case at all.

I think you'll find just about every other team is just as "secretive" in how they operate. It's more noticable in Montreal because there's a lot more fans and a lot more media. Brian Burke loves to hear himself speak, but he still never actually says anything helpful or insightful into how the organization is run or what they're doing. I think you're making a big issue out of nothing here.

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10-26-2011, 07:58 AM
  #9
WestIslander
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Originally Posted by CGG View Post
How many cups has Steve Yzerman won as a GM?

The days of Ronald Corey dictating personnel moves and hiring his Molson buddies like Rejean Houle are long since over.
How many cups have Vigneault, Therien, Carbonneau, Martin and Gauthier one has either a coach or GM?

How do you feel when media ask's Pierre Boivin why he chose Pierre Gauthier and his answer is that he was the best GM available, every stone was turned and every coach or GM in this organization needs to speak French?

I speak French and am fully billingual and born and raised in Montreal, however, you have to understand that it's 2011 and all the organization has to do is go out, find and hire the BEST in the business and hire a professional translator to sit in all press conferences.

WAKE UP!!!

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10-26-2011, 08:01 AM
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Mike The Wall
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My thoughts are that the 1 of the core problems is the that we have a coach that wants his players to play in a defensive system and in turn we have 8 forwards that are offensive in their play. Brian Gionta, Mike Cam, Max Pac, Lars Eller, Scott Gomez, Eric Cole, Andrei K., David Desharnais, You are asking these players to play a defensive game when in turn you can give them a run and gun game with speed to burn which are more suited for.

everyone knows you do not ask a race horse to plow the fields and you do ask a mule to run the kentucky derby.

We have a certain style of player and we are playing them another way.

Jacques Martin is more cut out to coach the Devils then the Canadiens.

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10-26-2011, 08:07 AM
  #11
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The team has long been to easy to play against. They lack the physicality needed to wear down opponents in a deep playoffs run.

When Gainey blew up the team he made them smaller and softer than ever! It made no sense. Also, he had to know that was his plan and we had a bunch of ufa's that should have been traded at the deadline. But the reason why that didn't happen is greedy ownership wanting the revenue's playoffs generate.

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10-26-2011, 08:17 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Demers View Post
Looking at this year's start, as well as reasons for playoff exits in the last 10 years, I'd like to get your opinions on the core issues with the organization.

I'm going to make a list of problems that keep recurring, in good times and bad, feel free to comment on them... and lets keep it short and sweet. This is not to open a specific debate, but rather get a quick & dirty feel for where you guys think the issues are.

Of the following recurring issues in the last 10 years, which ones are most true, and most problematic for the team?


- The team's policy of secrecy and lack of transparency with the public (general attitude of a constant struggle with media & fans)

- failure to bring/keep a top6 center with size.

- unwillingness to make big moves at the trade deadline

- consistently signing 3rd line & 5th D- players at the start of the season and sell it as a "solution" to last year's problems

- failure to recognize the need to add depth in case of injuries

- unwillingness to sign gritty players, and/or enforcers

- Playing fans for fools, and generally not taking any action whilst revenues are flowing, unless the situation becomes truly dire.

- "mindset" problems that prevent the team from tanking to rebuild, from attracting free agents, and selecting non-francophone staff
They haven't had a top #1 center since Kirk Muller. Be part of their problem, hard to win consistently without a #1 center. Koivu and Plekanec were not really # 1 center. Turgeon and Damphousse weren't the top #1 centers in the league.

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10-26-2011, 08:26 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike The Wall View Post
My thoughts are that the 1 of the core problems is the that we have a coach that wants his players to play in a defensive system and in turn we have 8 forwards that are offensive in their play. Brian Gionta, Mike Cam, Max Pac, Lars Eller, Scott Gomez, Eric Cole, Andrei K., David Desharnais, You are asking these players to play a defensive game when in turn you can give them a run and gun game with speed to burn which are more suited for.

everyone knows you do not ask a race horse to plow the fields and you do ask a mule to run the kentucky derby.

We have a certain style of player and we are playing them another way.

Jacques Martin is more cut out to coach the Devils then the Canadiens.
Bingo!

To the OP: You can pretty much sum all the issues up to this : the conservative mentality of this organisation.

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Old
10-26-2011, 08:31 AM
  #14
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Yeah, we've been unlucky as far as injuries are concerned. Still, really tough to blame it on this when Pittsburgh, who by their tanking, is a team build on 3 and 4 stars and then the rest, and yet despite missing 2 of them for some time, they kept on going. Still missing the #1 player of the league, and still win. Habs, compared to Pens, aren't build like that. We are not supposed to be build on 1 or 2 players, we are suppose to be more balanced and still be a good team. Yep, Pacioretty is missing. But that means, in real life, that one of Cole and AKost become top 6. Yep, Gomez is missing. The guy everybody wants out and buy out. Who still has how many points again so far? So Eller and/or Desharnais should be able to have as many points do they? Markov is missing? Yeah, sorry, this is not the year to bring that up. We signed a risky player, they had no idea how it would evolve when they signed him AND decided prior to September 25th, that vets like Hamrlik weren't important. But then decided otherwise, had to do with Campoli, the guy nobody wanted until that date. Yes, you'll hear that there was 2 or 3 teams after him but how come that late? 'Cause he was on NOBODY's radar before and they ALL wanted to see what they had before having to address their weaknesses. Habs didn't like Weber's preseason, found out that Emelin was nowhere near ready than had to do a move. Yet, we ALL wanted to go along with Weber based on his playoffs. And the only way you'd attract Emelin is to make him a NHL'er. And the idea was to play him.

And there are other injuries in the league, you know....

Core issues? Not talented enough, no finish. Will have a team that will be weaken as the tough gets going. 5 on 5n play isn't good enough. Price doesn't steal games so that it gets his team going. PP isn't working based on the fact that we did everything we could to get rid of the guys that could help in the department. And that we put our faith in a guy with risky injuries. But we are NOT nowhere as bad as the record indicates. Still a 7th-10th place type of team. As always.

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Old
10-26-2011, 08:39 AM
  #15
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Core Issues...............

Should have kept Halpern
Should have kept Hamrlik

Core issue is the GM.

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10-26-2011, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike The Wall View Post
My thoughts are that the 1 of the core problems is the that we have a coach that wants his players to play in a defensive system and in turn we have 8 forwards that are offensive in their play. Brian Gionta, Mike Cam, Max Pac, Lars Eller, Scott Gomez, Eric Cole, Andrei K., David Desharnais, You are asking these players to play a defensive game when in turn you can give them a run and gun game with speed to burn which are more suited for.

everyone knows you do not ask a race horse to plow the fields and you do ask a mule to run the kentucky derby.

We have a certain style of player and we are playing them another way.

Jacques Martin is more cut out to coach the Devils then the Canadiens.
This may be a shock to you, but every team in the NHL plays a "defense first" system. Washington was the only "run and gun" team and they completely changed their mentality last year because they flopped at playoff time.

If the "defensive system" was such an issue we'd be getting outshot every game and wouldn't average 34 shots a night and give up 27.

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10-26-2011, 08:59 AM
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A TOP NOTCH CENTER!

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10-26-2011, 09:41 AM
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Core issues? I don't know what you are talking about.

It's not like the Habs offense was built around small and overpaid players. Or that the cornerstone of the defense squad is a player who missed a 100 games in the last 2 seasons. It's certainly not the coach who forces his system down the throat of player that are absolutely not built for that system.

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10-26-2011, 09:47 AM
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glenn77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Demers View Post
Looking at this year's start, as well as reasons for playoff exits in the last 10 years, I'd like to get your opinions on the core issues with the organization.

I'm going to make a list of problems that keep recurring, in good times and bad, feel free to comment on them... and lets keep it short and sweet. This is not to open a specific debate, but rather get a quick & dirty feel for where you guys think the issues are.

Of the following recurring issues in the last 10 years, which ones are most true, and most problematic for the team?


- The team's policy of secrecy and lack of transparency with the public (general attitude of a constant struggle with media & fans)

- failure to bring/keep a top6 center with size.

- unwillingness to make big moves at the trade deadline

- consistently signing 3rd line & 5th D- players at the start of the season and sell it as a "solution" to last year's problems

- failure to recognize the need to add depth in case of injuries

- unwillingness to sign gritty players, and/or enforcers

- Playing fans for fools, and generally not taking any action whilst revenues are flowing, unless the situation becomes truly dire.

- "mindset" problems that prevent the team from tanking to rebuild, from attracting free agents, and selecting non-francophone staff

TOTALLY good post! Couldn't have nailed it better

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10-26-2011, 10:01 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
How many cups have Vigneault, Therien, Carbonneau, Martin and Gauthier one has either a coach or GM?

How do you feel when media ask's Pierre Boivin why he chose Pierre Gauthier and his answer is that he was the best GM available, every stone was turned and every coach or GM in this organization needs to speak French?

I speak French and am fully billingual and born and raised in Montreal, however, you have to understand that it's 2011 and all the organization has to do is go out, find and hire the BEST in the business and hire a professional translator to sit in all press conferences.

WAKE UP!!!
I see you excluded Julien on purpose. Is Vigneault really to blame for the loss in finals? What about Lemaire's miracle last year? Or Dineen in Florida? What about the fact that two of the best coaches ever were speaking french? The pool of french competent coaches is not thin unlike what you think.. Guy Boucher anyone?

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:12 AM
  #21
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"None of the above".

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10-26-2011, 10:17 AM
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Bob in Niagara
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Core issues? How about....

-lack of size
-lack of depth
-lack of toughness
-out dated coaching techniques
-questionable management decisions re trades, drafting, etc

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10-26-2011, 10:33 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Demers View Post

As for dealing with the media and fans, I believe that the team sometimes treats them as adversaries just as much as opposing teams, and it negatively affects their hockey decisions.
Don't be fooled by the media. They are the ones paiting management as this big secretive organization.
What is really funny is that the journalist cant even recognize their wrong doing.
Yesterday on l'antichambre, Francois Gagnon was speaking of it with Phillipe Canton.
Their reasoning was that when you dont share things, it leaves room for speculations. So medias will write/talk, rumors and speculations will be born. They flat out blame management for that. But in reality, they are the ones fabricating and intensifying these speculations. If anybody is the blame, it is the people creating them.
Then, they try to spin it as if management should be more communicative to their fans because they owe it to us. This is absolute BS. All it really is, is a bunch of frustrated journalists that have a harder time doing their jobs. They wont not write their articles, so they will write speculative and critical articles about management instead. They are simply unprofessional.

I am a fan, a big one. I do not give two craps to know if Markov is gone for 2months or 4. Whenever he is a week or two away from return, it will be evident as he will be skating with the team. In the meantime, i dont care if he is in miami, moscow or tripoli.
I do not need to hear gauthier say he is working the phones. Actions speak louder than words.

This is pure BS from the media, dont buy into it.

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Old
10-26-2011, 10:40 AM
  #24
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The thing to remember about the media is that most of them are pretty terrible hockey analysts. In the media's mind, if you have one win in seven games you must be playing like complete and utter crap. Even though everyone involved knows, or should know, hockey (or even sports in general) does not work that way.

If, right now, they tried to tell the media "our data tells us we're not actually playing poorly, but we can't buy a win", what would be the answer?

Please note that I'm not just assuming that they think that way with no evidence. This is, after all, more or less what Martin is saying when he talks about outchancing the other team after a loss. It's a very mellow form of it, but note what kind of reaction he's getting for even now. Now, what do you think would be the reaction if he pointed out, quite correctly, "we could easily be 3-3-1 or 4-3-0 right now"? He'd get crapped on and ridiculized.

So what is he going to tell the media? "Yes we suck", even though he may not actually believe that? Standard clichés about working hard to get out of it, even though that would add nothing to the debate?

Martin and Gauthier cannot have an intelligent hockey conversation with the hockey media; the journalists just don't have the perspective or the knowledge, even if by all rights they should. That's a big part, IMO, of why they clam up; they don't want to lie and the media won't accept what they really think.

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10-26-2011, 10:41 AM
  #25
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the major issue with our team is G.Molson. Habs nation is waiting for him to take charge and put his own stamp on the team.

Being risk-adverse and anti-change will only bite him in the ass -- as eventually he'll have no choice but to do it.

If we continue to suck there is no doubt that actions will be taken -- however it still shows you that this team is built on a reactionary plan and not a proactive.

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