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10-30-2011, 02:41 PM
  #101
slip
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Originally Posted by bfloMatt View Post
It's not about the exact number. He won a Vezina and can warrant a high salary, it doesn't mean he's worth it. Brad Richards sure as hell isn't worth what he's getting in pure salary (not cap hit), but obviously he had to be overpaid. I think it comes down my overall belief that you don't need a perceived "elite" goaltender to win a cup. I'd rather have the playmaking center and a sound D in front if it was an either or. Sometimes you get a little lucky and are very crafty with your money and you can pull off a situation where you get both. If you're not in that situation, I'd rather take the cheap goalie.

We just view it differently, it's really neither you're right or I'm wrong. You can win with both ways. I just believe that looking at the Sabres roster we need a true playmaker more than what people call a top 5 goaltender
That argument may have made sense in the past, but if falls flat on its face when you consider the production of the VAP line.

Too bad this team doesn't know how to win when the opposition scores 3 or 4 goals. You need secondary scoring in order to do that, and the usual suspects -- Stafford, Ennis, Roy, our entire defense -- just haven't been pulling their weight offensively.

Once again people want to crucify Miller because of our offensive impotence both at even strength (excluding VAP) and on the PP.

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10-30-2011, 06:31 PM
  #102
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That argument may have made sense in the past, but if falls flat on its face when you consider the production of the VAP line.

Too bad this team doesn't know how to win when the opposition scores 3 or 4 goals. You need secondary scoring in order to do that, and the usual suspects -- Stafford, Ennis, Roy, our entire defense -- just haven't been pulling their weight offensively.

Once again people want to crucify Miller because of our offensive impotence both at even strength (excluding VAP) and on the PP.
Not crucifying the guy, just telling you the direction I'd prefer

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10-30-2011, 07:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
i'm not an NHL caliber goalie...

if i was GM, i'd draft 3 goalies, every 2 years... i would never give a goalie a contract longer then 2-3 years.... i would never give a goalie the type of contract Miller has. I'd work with young talent, and older veterans that come cheap because there are only 30 starting jobs (Vokoun in Washington)
Yes, how has that worked for teams like Philadelphia lately? Miller's contract hasn't handicapped the team, so why is it an issue?

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10-31-2011, 08:28 AM
  #104
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Is this something to think about?

Last 15 decisions, Enroth 11-2-2, Miller 7-8.

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10-31-2011, 08:38 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Is this something to think about?

Last 15 decisions, Enroth 11-2-2, Miller 7-8.
You are forgetting that miller has played way more games then enroth. Enroth hasn't prooven anything except that he is a good/great backup. If miller goes down for an extended period, or if Lindy gives Enroth the green light like what happened in boston with thomas last year, and if enroth looks better at that point then let him share with miller. Play the hot glove. But until Enroth prooves he's a viable starter, sit down and stop whining for enroth. The grass is always greener on the other side.

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10-31-2011, 09:04 AM
  #106
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You are forgetting that miller has played way more games then enroth. Enroth hasn't prooven anything except that he is a good/great backup. If miller goes down for an extended period, or if Lindy gives Enroth the green light like what happened in boston with thomas last year, and if enroth looks better at that point then let him share with miller. Play the hot glove. But until Enroth prooves he's a viable starter, sit down and stop whining for enroth. The grass is always greener on the other side.
I ain't gonna sit down.

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10-31-2011, 09:28 AM
  #107
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Then continue to be wrong. At this point the wins and losses aren't on our goaltenders. Right now we are 5TH in the league in goals against. That is hardly grounds for a goaltender switch! We have only lost ONE game that wasn't close and it was to a GOOD team! Where exactly is it logical to change goalies? The problem isn't miller! The problem lies in the fact that only two of our lines are scoring. Even with only two linws putting up points, were STILL scoring 3 goals a game. Our team is shakey defensivly and lacking a power forward that can play on our second line. If lindy puts Weber out instead of MAG, I think we will see a big difference in the goal tending.

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10-31-2011, 09:35 AM
  #108
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Then continue to be wrong. At this point the wins and losses aren't on our goaltenders. Right now we are 5TH in the league in goals against. That is hardly grounds for a goaltender switch! We have only lost ONE game that wasn't close and it was to a GOOD team! Where exactly is it logical to change goalies? The problem isn't miller! The problem lies in the fact that only two of our lines are scoring. Even with only two linws putting up points, were STILL scoring 3 goals a game. Our team is shakey defensivly and lacking a power forward that can play on our second line. If lindy puts Weber out instead of MAG, I think we will see a big difference in the goal tending.
I think this is where I'm at. Not saying those who have strong arguments about our goaltending situation are wrong; just saying that right now goaltending is not an issue to our immediate successes or failures. I think all of us can point to 2 forward lines, a few injured/not 100% players, sub-par performances from a few defensemen, a bad PP and chemistry issues as being more pertinent to our losses than goaltending.

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10-31-2011, 09:58 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Is this something to think about?

Last 15 decisions, Enroth 11-2-2, Miller 7-8.
No, for a couple reasons. First, you're being intentionally misleading by posting only their records. You seem to do your homework, so I know you know what the numbers say for that same period. For others who haven't looked them up, here they are:

Last 15 Starts

Miller: .924 SV%, 3 SO's
Enroth: .915 SV%, 1 SO*

*Enroth's numbers are from the beginning of last season.

Miller is still stopping a significantly higher percentage of shots than Enroth. Miller cannot control the amount of shots faced, nor the amount of goals scored by his offense. Thus, Miller has been better over the period of time you set forth. I find it all too convenient that the anti-Miller contingent is now banging away at his W/L record when in the first few seasons after the lockout they wanted to hear nothing of his W/L record, but, instead, wanted to focus on his SV%. Now that the situation is reversed--his numbers are very good but it hasn't translated to the W/L record--they want to bang away at his W/L record and ignore the SV%. It's the old saying that lawyers use: When you don't have the facts, argue the law, and when you don't have the law, argue the facts. Here, when the anti-Miller contingent doesn't have the numbers, they argue the W/L record. And when Miller was winning a ton of games after the lockout but his numbers weren't all that good, they wanted to harp on his numbers and credit the wins to those teams' powerful offenses. Sorry, can't have your cake and eat it too.

Second, you're including Miller's playoff performance against Philadelphia in your calculation. Philly was one of the top offenses in the league last year, and much better competition than that faced by Enroth over his 15 starts. In Enroth's 15 starts, he's faced nine playoff teams (assuming CBJ is not this year, and PIT is), while 12 of 15 starts by Miller were against playoff teams (the exceptions were the two vs FLA, and one vs CAR). Enroth's SV% in those nine starts is a very ordinary .909, while Miller's has a .924 SV% vs playoff teams. Enroth gets fat on scrub teams, while Miller stays consistent against those teams.

Thus, even in your cherrypicked sample size, Miller has still been better than Enroth. Better luck next time.

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10-31-2011, 11:06 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Thus, even in your cherrypicked sample size, Miller has still been better than Enroth. Better luck next time.
I just asked if it was something to think about. You thought about it. Good reply.

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10-31-2011, 11:53 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan View Post
Yes, how has that worked for teams like Philadelphia lately? Miller's contract hasn't handicapped the team, so why is it an issue?
I'm pretty sure Philly has come closer to a cup the last few years... so I'm not sure what you point is?

I'm not saying Miller's contract is handicapping the team
I'm not saying Miller isn't a very good goalie
I'm not saying Miller shouldn't be the starter over Enroth

I just don't think the difference between "perceived elite goalie" who's market value in 5.5-7.5 million (Miller, Luongo, Lundqvist, whoever).... and "perceived average goalie" (whoever you want) who's market value is 2-3 million... is anywhere near the difference between elite center/wing/defensemen to average center/winger/defensemen

To me, roughly 80% of goaltenders are pretty equivalent to each other, and their performance is relative to the quality of team around them. Each year, about 10% of goaltenders have exceptionally good seasons, and usually it's an aberration when looked at in the context of their career #'s. The other 10% of goaltenders just suck.

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10-31-2011, 12:24 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'm pretty sure Philly has come closer to a cup the last few years... so I'm not sure what you point is?

I'm not saying Miller's contract is handicapping the team
I'm not saying Miller isn't a very good goalie
I'm not saying Miller shouldn't be the starter over Enroth

I just don't think the difference between "perceived elite goalie" who's market value in 5.5-7.5 million (Miller, Luongo, Lundqvist, whoever).... and "perceived average goalie" (whoever you want) who's market value is 2-3 million... is anywhere near the difference between elite center/wing/defensemen to average center/winger/defensemen

To me, roughly 80% of goaltenders are pretty equivalent to each other, and their performance is relative to the quality of team around them. Each year, about 10% of goaltenders have exceptionally good seasons, and usually it's an aberration when looked at in the context of their career #'s. The other 10% of goaltenders just suck.
Good perspective. Another point
Enroth at .915 lets in on average for a 30 shot game lets in 2.55 goals/game
Miller at 0.924 lets in on average for a 30 shot game lets in 2.28 goals/game
So Enroth allows 0.27 more goals per game or 1 goal more every 3 games.

So is that worth Miller's additional 5.5M salary?
Well if many sabres games are 1 goal games then Miller makes a difference.

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10-31-2011, 12:39 PM
  #113
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Good perspective. Another point
Enroth at .915 lets in on average for a 30 shot game lets in 2.55 goals/game
Miller at 0.924 lets in on average for a 30 shot game lets in 2.28 goals/game
So Enroth allows 0.27 more goals per game or 1 goal more every 3 games.

So is that worth Miller's additional 5.5M salary?
Well if many sabres games are 1 goal games then Miller makes a difference.
It's hard to be objective with those numbers, however, since Enroth hasn't played anywhere near the games Miller has. At the end of this season when Enroth has (ideally) 20-25 more games played it might be more interesting, personally.

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10-31-2011, 12:43 PM
  #114
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Good perspective. Another point
Enroth at .915 lets in on average for a 30 shot game lets in 2.55 goals/game
Miller at 0.924 lets in on average for a 30 shot game lets in 2.28 goals/game
So Enroth allows 0.27 more goals per game or 1 goal more every 3 games.

So is that worth Miller's additional 5.5M salary?
Well if many sabres games are 1 goal games then Miller makes a difference.
First, I'd like to see those numbers adjusted for quality of competition, because, as stated above, Miller's opponents in the relevant sample size were much better. If you were a goaltender, which platter of teams would you prefer playing against:

Platter #1: PHI (7x), TB (2x), FLA (2x), LAK, ANA, MON, CAR
Platter #2: PIT (2x), NYR (2x), BOS, WAS, TB, PHI, NJ, MON, MIN, CAR, OTT, TOR, CBJ

I'd take the latter, thanks. Playing Philly seven times is brutal, and keep in mind that Enroth was losing his start vs Philly when Miller relieved him and the Sabres won.

Second, your analysis is flawed because Miller is being paid for UFA years while Enroth is playing for the first time as a full-time NHLer. That's a product of the CBA. Also, backups tend to be paid significantly less than starters. Of course Enroth's salary is going to be lower. If we took your logic to its end, many of the best netminders who have solid, young backups would be out of a job. Tim Thomas would be out of a job because he hasn't been that much better than Rask over the last three seasons. Bryzgalov would've been out a job a couple years ago when LaBarbera posted a better SV% than him in the season that Bryz was nominated for the Vezina! Heck, Marty Biron wouldn't give up many more goals than Lundqvist over three games, either, and Marty is significantly cheaper, why don't the Rangers just turn the starting job over to Marty and trade Lundqvist for a huge return? Do you see where I'm going with this?

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10-31-2011, 02:23 PM
  #115
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tell that to blackhawk fans who had their championship team dismantled due to poor contract values and the cap

They had to get rid of some guys because they had to pay their young stars Kane, Toews and Keith. They had only one contract on the books that was out of whack... Campbell at 7.14mil... that impacted their roster for the following season.

But the main issue was ...

Keith's cap hit going from 1.9mil to 8mil (6.1mil jump)
Toews' cap hit going from 2.8mil to 6.3mil (3.5mil jump)
Kane's cap hit going from 3.75mil to 6.3mil (2.55mil jump)

Thats a total jump for those three of 12.15mil.

There is no way that team could have stayed together even if Campbell got moved. I also doubt Hawks fans are lamenting winning a Cup and keeping their young stars in the fold.



But I would love to bring up what they spent on goalies since thats part of the current debate.

The Hawks went to the Western Conference Finals in the 2009 playoffs with 12+mil being spent on goalies (Huet at 5.6mil and Khabulin at 6.75mil) and they still had almost 5mil in cap space that year.


The following year they won the Cup with a 5.6mil backup goalie. Who was waived in the summer and sent to Europe. He had no bearing on the cap for the following year.

Its amazing how the folks pushing their agenda about Miller's contract fail to notice how much the Hawks spent on goalies in their pursuit of one they could rely on. Yet they were still able to build a Cup winning team while doing so. But for some reason we can't build a Cup winning team due to Miller's cap hit.


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10-31-2011, 02:33 PM
  #116
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It's not about the exact number. He won a Vezina and can warrant a high salary, it doesn't mean he's worth it. Brad Richards sure as hell isn't worth what he's getting in pure salary (not cap hit), but obviously he had to be overpaid. I think it comes down my overall belief that you don't need a perceived "elite" goaltender to win a cup. I'd rather have the playmaking center and a sound D in front if it was an either or. Sometimes you get a little lucky and are very crafty with your money and you can pull off a situation where you get both. If you're not in that situation, I'd rather take the cheap goalie.

We just view it differently, it's really neither you're right or I'm wrong. You can win with both ways. I just believe that looking at the Sabres roster we need a true playmaker more than what people call a top 5 goaltender
But you actually are wrong because you've set up a false choice. Miller or a #1 top 5 center. We can have both.

You've also fallen into the trap of thinking what Detroit did is the norm or easily repeatable or that they even intented to spend 2mil. Detroit won the Cup with two of the best all around centers in the game (Datsyuk/Zetterberg)and the one of the best dmen to ever play the game (Lidstrom). Feel free to tell me how 4mil dollars less on a goalie turns into those 3 who made roughly 17+mil between them at the time they won the Cup.

You're also leaving out how the Wings ended up with a "2mil goalie" for the 07/08 season when they won the Cup. Hasek took 2mil base salary and 2mil in bonuses if they have success in the playoffs (So he was actually paid 4mil and ironically didn't keep the starting job in the playoffs). So they didn't actually spend 2mil for their goalie position is you and others try to claim. They actually had 4.9mil in cap hits on goalies that year.

Detroit will pay what they feel they need to to get the goaltending they need. They've never really had to pay big money due to the strength of their roster. But they have in the past, gone after goalies they felt they've needed like Vernon and Hasek.

The Detroit arguement has always been a bunch of nonsense. As is the working theory that teams spend peanuts on goal when they win

07-08 --> Wings had 4.9mil in cap hits for goalies /50.3mil cap upper limit (9.7% of that upper limit was spent on goalies)
08-09 --> Pens had 5.509 in cap hits for goalies/56.7mil upper limit (9.7%)
09-10 --> Hawks had 6.452mil in cap hits for goalies/56.8mil upper limit (11.3%)
10-11 --> Bruins had 8.2mil in cap hits for goalies/59.4mil upper limit (13.8%)


11-12 --> Sabres have 6.925mil in cap hits in net/64.3mil upper limit (10.8%).


But keep thinking Miller's deal prevents us from getting the players we need.


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10-31-2011, 03:31 PM
  #117
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But you actually are wrong because you've set up a false choice. Miller or a #1 top 5 center. We can have both.

You've also fallen into the trap of thinking what Detroit did is the norm or easily repeatable or that they even intented to spend 2mil. Detroit won the Cup with two of the best all around centers in the game (Datsyuk/Zetterberg)and the one of the best dmen to ever play the game (Lidstrom). Feel free to tell me how 4mil dollars less on a goalie turns into those 3 who made roughly 17+mil between them at the time they won the Cup.

You're also leaving out how the Wings ended up with a "2mil goalie" for the 07/08 season when they won the Cup. Hasek took 2mil base salary and 2mil in bonuses if they have success in the playoffs (So he was actually paid 4mil and ironically didn't keep the starting job in the playoffs). So they didn't actually spend 2mil for their goalie position is you and others try to claim. They actually had 4.9mil in cap hits on goalies that year.

Detroit will pay what they feel they need to to get the goaltending they need. They've never really had to pay big money due to the strength of their roster. But they have in the past, gone after goalies they felt they've needed like Vernon and Hasek.

The Detroit arguement has always been a bunch of nonsense. That year the Wings had 4.9mil in cap hits for goalies with a 50.3mil cap upper limit (9.7% of that upper limit was spent on goalies). Buffalo currently has 6.925mil in cap hits in net with a 64.3mil cap upper limit (10.8% of the upper limit spent on goalies). That percentage will drop even lower next year when the cap goes up.

But keep thinking Miller's deal prevents us from getting the players we need.
I've made the same argument in the past... and you're right.

Miller's deal doesn't prevent the Sabres from getting that top 5 center.

But, if you view goaltending the way I do. Then Miller is a POTENTIAL means to getting the player we need.

That is all.

Marty Biron is an UFA

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10-31-2011, 03:33 PM
  #118
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First, I'd like to see those numbers adjusted for quality of competition, because, as stated above, Miller's opponents in the relevant sample size were much better. If you were a goaltender, which platter of teams would you prefer playing against:

Platter #1: PHI (7x), TB (2x), FLA (2x), LAK, ANA, MON, CAR
Platter #2: PIT (2x), NYR (2x), BOS, WAS, TB, PHI, NJ, MON, MIN, CAR, OTT, TOR, CBJ

I'd take the latter, thanks. Playing Philly seven times is brutal, and keep in mind that Enroth was losing his start vs Philly when Miller relieved him and the Sabres won.

Second, your analysis is flawed because Miller is being paid for UFA years while Enroth is playing for the first time as a full-time NHLer. That's a product of the CBA. Also, backups tend to be paid significantly less than starters. Of course Enroth's salary is going to be lower. If we took your logic to its end, many of the best netminders who have solid, young backups would be out of a job. Tim Thomas would be out of a job because he hasn't been that much better than Rask over the last three seasons. Bryzgalov would've been out a job a couple years ago when LaBarbera posted a better SV% than him in the season that Bryz was nominated for the Vezina! Heck, Marty Biron wouldn't give up many more goals than Lundqvist over three games, either, and Marty is significantly cheaper, why don't the Rangers just turn the starting job over to Marty and trade Lundqvist for a huge return? Do you see where I'm going with this?
Yes but you could answer the question is Miller worth the incremental 5.5M?

I never took a position on Miller or Enroth in net just putting some numbers down to start a dialogue. You can also look up Enroth's previous SV% and compare to miller's lifetime save % for another perspective.

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10-31-2011, 04:59 PM
  #119
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Yes but you could answer the question is Miller worth the incremental 5.5M?

I never took a position on Miller or Enroth in net just putting some numbers down to start a dialogue. You can also look up Enroth's previous SV% and compare to miller's lifetime save % for another perspective.
I won't answer the question, because it's a pointless one. If that's the standard, any quality goaltender who's being paid for UFA years is going to be making a good amount more than his backup. If the backup is performing reasonably well, then, by your logic, the starter's performance likely won't be worth the difference in pay. Thus, according to you, every well-compensated starter who isn't 15-20 SV% pts ahead of his backup, should be shipped out because he's not worth the salary cap space that could otherwise be saved.

And this is ignoring the fact that one goal every three games is equivalent to roughly 27 goals over the course of an entire season. That's a significant number. That could be the difference between having a +20 goal differential and being a lock for the playoffs, and a -7 goal differential and being guaranteed to miss the playoffs (not one team made the playoffs with a negative goal differential last season).

Then what if the new backup isn't playing as well as Enroth was as the backup? Then you have Enroth not playing as well as Miller, and the new backup not playing as well as Enroth, and you're then swimming against the tide. Your theory/thought has some serious problems.

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11-01-2011, 07:04 AM
  #120
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Id like to put the goaltending in perspective for those of you who are saying we pay miller too much. With our goaltending as it is right now, it is 5th in the league. Which means that it is very difficult to improove the success of the system. So in knowing that our goal tending is 5th in the league, which means that what we are doing is successful. Are we still following my logic? Now, consider this: you use philly as an example of a team that used a some low end goalies in order to be successful. Please tell me why they just shipped out their top two centers in order to sign a really good goalie to a huge contract. Especially since their previous system was bringing them SOOOOOOOOO much success.

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11-01-2011, 07:26 AM
  #121
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Id like to put the goaltending in perspective for those of you who are saying we pay miller too much. With our goaltending as it is right now, it is 5th in the league. Which means that it is very difficult to improove the success of the system. So in knowing that our goal tending is 5th in the league, which means that what we are doing is successful. Are we still following my logic? Now, consider this: you use philly as an example of a team that used a some low end goalies in order to be successful. Please tell me why they just shipped out their top two centers in order to sign a really good goalie to a huge contract. Especially since their previous system was bringing them SOOOOOOOOO much success.
If you're gonna be smarmy and talk down at people, at least use good examples. Over a meaningful sample size, you're wrong. Philadelphia had a lower GAA as a team last year than we had, with their terrible goalie system. Also, since you really shouldn't consider GAA in a vacuum when talking about making a team better by signing forwards over goaltenders, they also scored more goals, had more points and beat us in the playoffs.

I'm not even on the side that says "trade miller," but if you can't put together a thoughtful analysis, then drop your attitude.

Btw: go back a few years, and tell me that you can't argue with the success of the Sabres with Miller, using team defense as a rubric (which was what your original post was about). We ranked 4th overall in Miller's vezina year, but after that, it's 18th, 14th, 22nd, 13th and 10th (going back to the days when Miller and Marty split time in 05-06). If that's your rubric, seems like there's plenty of room for improvement.


Last edited by haseoke39: 11-01-2011 at 07:35 AM.
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11-01-2011, 08:06 AM
  #122
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
If you're gonna be smarmy and talk down at people, at least use good examples. Over a meaningful sample size, you're wrong. Philadelphia had a lower GAA as a team last year than we had, with their terrible goalie system. Also, since you really shouldn't consider GAA in a vacuum when talking about making a team better by signing forwards over goaltenders, they also scored more goals, had more points and beat us in the playoffs.

I'm not even on the side that says "trade miller," but if you can't put together a thoughtful analysis, then drop your attitude.

Btw: go back a few years, and tell me that you can't argue with the success of the Sabres with Miller, using team defense as a rubric (which was what your original post was about). We ranked 4th overall in Miller's vezina year, but after that, it's 18th, 14th, 22nd, 13th and 10th (going back to the days when Miller and Marty split time in 05-06). If that's your rubric, seems like there's plenty of room for improvement.
First off, I didn't bring philly into the conversation I just pointed out the fact that Philly clearly didn't have faith in that goaltending system, seeing as they removed this year so completely. They dropped their top two centers and put major money into a young goalie who is very good. That is why Philly is the perfect example for my point, which is that in order to stay competitive, a team needs to invest in a good goaltender, and spending 6-7 million on goaltending doesn't cripple the team. That was my point.

To be honest I'm not sure where you got me saying that you need to sign forwards over goaltenders because that is the exact opposite of my point.


As to millers previous rankings, how many of those years did Miller have a viable backup? Not since Biron. Allowing your goalie to be rested during the season directly impacts his effectiveness in games, due to the relatively short time between games. Since miller will be allowed to rest enough to keep him fresh through the whole season, his performence increased. This is what having a good backup does for you.




Honestly, though you seem to be making two opposing points in the same post....not sure whre your trying to go with that.....but hopefully we are now on the same page concerning my point now, because your previous rebuttle had nothing to do with what you quoted.

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11-01-2011, 08:17 AM
  #123
haseoke39
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
First off, I didn't bring philly into the conversation I just pointed out the fact that Philly clearly didn't have faith in that goaltending system, seeing as they removed this year so completely. They dropped their top two centers and put major money into a young goalie who is very good. That is why Philly is the perfect example for my point, which is that in order to stay competitive, a team needs to invest in a good goaltender, and spending 6-7 million on goaltending doesn't cripple the team. That was my point.

To be honest I'm not sure where you got me saying that you need to sign forwards over goaltenders because that is the exact opposite of my point.


As to millers previous rankings, how many of those years did Miller have a viable backup? Not since Biron. Allowing your goalie to be rested during the season directly impacts his effectiveness in games, due to the relatively short time between games. Since miller will be allowed to rest enough to keep him fresh through the whole season, his performence increased. This is what having a good backup does for you.




Honestly, though you seem to be making two opposing points in the same post....not sure whre your trying to go with that.....but hopefully we are now on the same page concerning my point now, because your previous rebuttle had nothing to do with what you quoted.
I didn't make opposing points, you just can't read for context. When I said "when talking about making a team better by signing forwards over goaltenders," I was referring to other people's arguments earlier in the thread, which you were plainly rebutting by citing Philadelphia, who did the opposite. That should have been about as obvious from the context as you can get.

As far as the argument about backups - sure, that's true, and not really relevant. I'm sure Miller will have a better year for it this year. If that's supposed to completely negate the fact that we've barely been above average for six years with him at the helm, you're putting too much stock in it. There's plenty of room for improvement.

Lastly, Philadelphia's big money goalie just got prohibited from speaking to the media because he's doing terrible on the ice and can't even keep his composure speaking to the press. It's too early to cite them as a success story for going with big name goalies over big name forwards - if you had to peg them for anything, they'd be a failure at this point.

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11-01-2011, 08:18 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
Id like to put the goaltending in perspective for those of you who are saying we pay miller too much. With our goaltending as it is right now, it is 5th in the league. Which means that it is very difficult to improove the success of the system. So in knowing that our goal tending is 5th in the league, which means that what we are doing is successful. Are we still following my logic? Now, consider this: you use philly as an example of a team that used a some low end goalies in order to be successful. Please tell me why they just shipped out their top two centers in order to sign a really good goalie to a huge contract. Especially since their previous system was bringing them SOOOOOOOOO much success.
you're talking about the team that beat us in the playoffs, with 3 different random goaltenders?

great example

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11-01-2011, 08:21 AM
  #125
cardiffgiant
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But until Enroth prooves he's a viable starter, sit down and stop whining for enroth. The grass is always greener on the other side.
My personal opinion is that Miller is the proven netminder and that Enroth, while interesting, is no where near ready to take on a larger role.

However, you're "sit down and shut up" and talk down to eveyrone routine is complete crap. Is this how you communicate with people face to face?


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No, for a couple reasons. First, you're being intentionally misleading by posting only their records. You seem to do your homework, so I know you know what the numbers say for that same period. For others who haven't looked them up, here they are:

Last 15 Starts

Miller: .924 SV%, 3 SO's
Enroth: .915 SV%, 1 SO*

*Enroth's numbers are from the beginning of last season.

Miller is still stopping a significantly higher percentage of shots than Enroth. Miller cannot control the amount of shots faced, nor the amount of goals scored by his offense. Thus, Miller has been better over the period of time you set forth.
Now, this is a great response that adds a deeper level of perspective.

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