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Could the rebuild be failing? And was the 08 draft good overall?

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Old
10-29-2011, 04:33 PM
  #26
Dutch Frost
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Im not willing to call anything a bust.. I am losing faith in Bailey but I would not object if Bailey and Okposo were traded for package deal.

If by any chance the Islanders trade Bailey and Okposo for Drew Doughty would anyone complain? I would like to see if we can package both players in a trade that would bring us that proven talent. I feel that Cizikas, Nino,Strome and Grabner can provide offense.. so Id trade for Defense and bring up our other prospects to fill the offensive void.

This is why you stock the shelves in a rebuild.. you see what you have and you make a general assessment and either sign them long term or trade them.

I would hope that by Christmas, Snow makes an assesment of what we have and will try and prevent us tanking. If we begin to really fall and playing for a lottery pick again I feel that Garth Snow should be fired but he wont cause our owner is clueless.

We can blame Capuano but if this season is a failure the blame belongs solely on Garth Snow.

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10-29-2011, 06:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
It's been 4 years into the rebuild. It can take up to 4-6 years for it to all come together. It's scary that people actually want Garth the make moves to aquire top talent. Remember what happened last time we tried to aquire "top talent"? Mike Milbury happened. He has been trying to get players here. Players don't want to though. So his only option is to have good drafts and find good players to make the Islanders a more attractive team. Wait until guys like Nino and Strome come up before we say the rebuild is a failure. Rome wasn't built in a day and so you can't expect the Isles to.
Im not advocating milburyism nor saying blow the **** up. Im saying that a GM of a truely successful rebiuld will have to acquire pieces from everywhere they can. The draft, trades, free agency, etc. Look at every succeeful rebuold in history.

Garth is great on contracts, but we get ZERO benefit from that. He's good at finding value signings, but again, little value to us. Ok at waiver pickups, i mean only Grabner was a steal, but quite the steal he is. FAs, Garth is a nada, same for trades. Still not sure why he's hesitant to make a deal. His last true trade (Smyth) was borderline Jedi mind trick it was so good.

Hes got to be willing to move a piece here and there to make sure this team keeps moving forward. Hedging the draft so to speak. If not, well if Bailey and Okposo dont become what this franchise NEEDS them to become, then what if Nino and Strome dont as well? This 5 years rebuild quickly becomes a 10 year rebuild.

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10-29-2011, 06:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Dutch Frost View Post
Im not willing to call anything a bust.. I am losing faith in Bailey but I would not object if Bailey and Okposo were traded for package deal.

If by any chance the Islanders trade Bailey and Okposo for Drew Doughty would anyone complain? I would like to see if we can package both players in a trade that would bring us that proven talent. I feel that Cizikas, Nino,Strome and Grabner can provide offense.. so Id trade for Defense and bring up our other prospects to fill the offensive void.

This is why you stock the shelves in a rebuild.. you see what you have and you make a general assessment and either sign them long term or trade them.

I would hope that by Christmas, Snow makes an assesment of what we have and will try and prevent us tanking. If we begin to really fall and playing for a lottery pick again I feel that Garth Snow should be fired but he wont cause our owner is clueless.

We can blame Capuano but if this season is a failure the blame belongs solely on Garth Snow.
After 8 games it's very premature to be having such threads. The Bruins are currently the 2nd worst team in the NHL based on point percentage. Does this mean last year's cup run was an extravagant fluke?

There was much optimism going into this year with the JT being a year older, Grabner having a full season, KO and Streit being fully back from injury, etc. It's hard to believe that after 8 games, all that optimism can just disappear to form a thread titled "Could the rebuild be failing?" Out of the first 8 games, only 2 were played like a playoff team (Lightning and Rangers), 2 were borderline (Wild and Penguins), and the rest were miserable. This team can play a lot better. Will they play a lot better? Time will tell. But they will be better than what they've shown at the beginning of this season. The talent doesn't appear to be the problem. The team has shown it can play at a high level. It's the showing up to play every night that has been the issue. While improvements can be made to this team, especially on the backend, if the Isles continue to come out flat it won't matter.

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10-29-2011, 11:16 PM
  #29
A Pointed Stick
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Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
What else was his backup plan going to be? The list of free agent defenseman was thin this season. And how was is a limited offer? I'm sure the Islanders wee thinking they needed to give him 10 years and 40 million like the Sabres did. Also we did get Staios who is a better option then others out there.

I can't believe people are saying the rebuild is a fail when we're not even 10 games into the season.
He could trade for his needs. There are several clubs in cap trouble. That's how you get a good player, by eating another club's salary mistake. This club is at the bottom of the cap floor so Wang can pay anyone stupid money with plenty of room to spare.

I also don't see where I claim the rebuild is a fail, but oh well.

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10-30-2011, 01:38 AM
  #30
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Rebuild will take some time. We need to figure out our goalie. THen ramp up the defence and add more top 6 talent.

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10-30-2011, 01:39 PM
  #31
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Rebuild will take some time. We need to figure out our goalie. THen ramp up the defence and add more top 6 talent.
our goalies are the least of our worries.. Even without DP we are solid in that department. We have 3 goalie prospects in the minors plus Montoya and Nabakov have given us stability. I like Nabakov alot and feel he gives us a great shot of winning.

Our problems lie with defense and offense which has been our problem for the last decade when we had Yashin. This team does everything half ass because our owner is cheap and clueless and our GM flies below the radar so he can get a pay check.

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10-30-2011, 01:56 PM
  #32
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Rebuild will terminate when we get:

-Shutdown defenseman
-Top 6 winger (or two)

Also, Snowy's going to have to start trading our assets at some point because they can't all play for us.
-Montoya, Nabokov, Poulin, Nilsson, Koskinen
-Lee, Nelson, Kabanov, Petrov, Cizikas
-de Haan, Donovan, Mayfield

They won't all be playing for us, its just that simple. Package them with picks and get us some proven players Snow. Please and thanks.

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10-30-2011, 03:38 PM
  #33
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"Could the rebuild be failing"?? Is this a serious question? We are in year 4 of a TOTAL, GROUND UP rebuild and not of just the Islanders but to restock our AHL team at the Bridge.

How soon some fans forget just how little this team had in its' system just 5 years ago, there was NOTHING. Over the past 4 years we have been drafting very high and as the consensus of Hockey writers say (as well as anyone with eyes or a pulse), Snow has drafted very well. Some of our picks are playing on the Island and played very well last year, many of our picks are over seas, in college and in Juniors and have yet to see NHL ice.

All I see is people whining about signing Rolston or Pandolfo (Rolston I understand but with Pandolfo our PK is 3rd in the league) or Staios, while crowing for high priced UFA's (who wont come here anyway). These fans can't see that these guys are veteran stopgaps, the spots these guys are in will be filled with kids the likes DeHaan, Donovan, Mayfield, Pedan and katic on defense. Offensive spots will be filled by the likes of Nino, Petrov, Kabonov, Lee, Cizikas.

The point is we restocked the whole damn system soup to nuts and though it has been 4 years, to expect this team of youngsters to be anywhere near the end of the rebuild is insane as it is unrealistic.

So far our core is JT,Moulson ,Grabner, Okposo, Hamonic and Macdonald (maybe Matt Martin and Frans, however for the right price I think Frans is expendable), the rest we just dont know yet. The rest of our core is probably playing in Juniors, Russia, Europe, and college right now.

We finish 5th worst in the league last year and somehow if in 1 off season you expected a playoff team this year? Come on. Players reach their prime in their mid to upper 20's, we have plenty of growing up to do, as players and as a fanbase.

I'm sure some will say "But Snow and Wang said they will make the playoffs", of course they did, what do you think would happen if they were honest and said 'while the goal of every sports team is to make the playoffs, I don't think we are there yet. We have some great talent but I think it is going to take a couple more years until we are a legitimate threat'. Now would anyone feel better hearing that?

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10-30-2011, 05:19 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TennesseeJedd View Post
"Could the rebuild be failing"?? Is this a serious question? We are in year 4 of a TOTAL, GROUND UP rebuild and not of just the Islanders but to restock our AHL team at the Bridge.

How soon some fans forget just how little this team had in its' system just 5 years ago, there was NOTHING. Over the past 4 years we have been drafting very high and as the consensus of Hockey writers say (as well as anyone with eyes or a pulse), Snow has drafted very well. Some of our picks are playing on the Island and played very well last year, many of our picks are over seas, in college and in Juniors and have yet to see NHL ice.

All I see is people whining about signing Rolston or Pandolfo (Rolston I understand but with Pandolfo our PK is 3rd in the league) or Staios, while crowing for high priced UFA's (who wont come here anyway). These fans can't see that these guys are veteran stopgaps, the spots these guys are in will be filled with kids the likes DeHaan, Donovan, Mayfield, Pedan and katic on defense. Offensive spots will be filled by the likes of Nino, Petrov, Kabonov, Lee, Cizikas.

The point is we restocked the whole damn system soup to nuts and though it has been 4 years, to expect this team of youngsters to be anywhere near the end of the rebuild is insane as it is unrealistic.

So far our core is JT,Moulson ,Grabner, Okposo, Hamonic and Macdonald (maybe Matt Martin and Frans, however for the right price I think Frans is expendable), the rest we just dont know yet. The rest of our core is probably playing in Juniors, Russia, Europe, and college right now.

We finish 5th worst in the league last year and somehow if in 1 off season you expected a playoff team this year? Come on. Players reach their prime in their mid to upper 20's, we have plenty of growing up to do, as players and as a fanbase.

I'm sure some will say "But Snow and Wang said they will make the playoffs", of course they did, what do you think would happen if they were honest and said 'while the goal of every sports team is to make the playoffs, I don't think we are there yet. We have some great talent but I think it is going to take a couple more years until we are a legitimate threat'. Now would anyone feel better hearing that?
Yea, Bailey is really tearing it up. Outside of JT name just ONE player Snow has drafted that has made a real impact at NHL level.

Outside of JT that core you mentioned is really nothing special at all.


"the spots these guys are in will be filled with kids the likes DeHaan, Donovan, Mayfield, Pedan and katic on defense. Offensive spots will be filled by the likes of Nino, Petrov, Kabonov, Lee, Cizikas."

Right Jedd, they are all sure things. Just like Bailey and Okposo were...

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10-30-2011, 06:11 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sammy2010 View Post
Yea, Bailey is really tearing it up. Outside of JT name just ONE player Snow has drafted that has made a real impact at NHL level.

Outside of JT that core you mentioned is really nothing special at all.


"the spots these guys are in will be filled with kids the likes DeHaan, Donovan, Mayfield, Pedan and katic on defense. Offensive spots will be filled by the likes of Nino, Petrov, Kabonov, Lee, Cizikas."

Right Jedd, they are all sure things. Just like Bailey and Okposo were...
ah come on dude...stop being such a hater. You're being way too cynical here. Cut the guy some slack. Jeez, If I drop 20 tons of crap on your driveway today, are you gonna have it cleaned up overnight? You gotta give'em more time. How many 20yr old 'impact' players do you expect this team to have anyway? Most of the kids Garth has drafted aren't even NHL ready yet. It's way too soon to be making that kinda judgement.

Not sure you are aware, but this is a very young team. And very young teams usually aren't that great. Giving up on our young talent is not the answer. Sure there are a few guys here and there who can come into the NHL and set the league on fire. But man, there are a TON of others who take a little more time to get going. Look at Marc Savard, Vinny Lecavalier, Dan Boyle, Tim Thomas....I can go on and on for days.

Sure, drafting Bailey over Myers may look like a mistake now, but really, how much better would they be with Myers anyway? They still wouldn't make the playoffs.

So here's my advice bud...if you aren't willing to deal with the growing pains of supporting a rebuilding team, do everyone here a favour, stop acting like a 'know it all' and go find another team to hate on.

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10-30-2011, 06:31 PM
  #36
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Quote:
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Yea, Bailey is really tearing it up. Outside of JT name just ONE player Snow has drafted that has made a real impact at NHL level.
Hamonic.

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10-30-2011, 06:51 PM
  #37
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Hamonic.
I think we've missed the boat and unless Snow corrects the blunders he's made
and stops telling people that FA's don't want to come to the Island because of the
Colisium, everyone should now that its more due to the team perception than anything else.

As I see it now, this thing could take a few more years just to make the playoffs.
Thats Sad and on the GM/Owner

1. Snow killed Bailey and its not hindsght either. Why would you bring on an 18 year old to a team destined to lose 50 or so games while he could be working with Taylor Hall and Windsor looking at a Memorial cup. I'm wondering if that was Wang or Snow's decision. Killed his development

2. Zhitnik move done way too early. Again was that Snow or Wang

3. Guerin situation and trade, an embarrasment

4. James Wis. trade, again too early and for picks

To be honest, not alot of real positives and as it looks, we can't be sure if its Snow or Wang that has caused the lag.

Just can't see how in todays Cap world, why you can't rebuild a little quicker by trading picks for established talent.

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10-30-2011, 06:53 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top Corner View Post
I think we've missed the boat and unless Snow corrects the blunders he's made
and stops telling people that FA's don't want to come to the Island because of the
Colisium, everyone should now that its more due to the team perception than anything else.

As I see it now, this thing could take a few more years just to make the playoffs.
Thats Sad and on the GM/Owner

1. Snow killed Bailey and its not hindsght either. Why would you bring on an 18 year old to a team destined to lose 50 or so games while he could be working with Taylor Hall and Windsor looking at a Memorial cup. I'm wondering if that was Wang or Snow's decision. Killed his development

2. Zhitnik move done way too early. Again was that Snow or Wang

3. Guerin situation and trade, an embarrasment

4. James Wis. trade, again too early and for picks

To be honest, not alot of real positives and as it looks, we can't be sure if its Snow or Wang that has caused the lag.

Just can't see how in todays Cap world, why you can't rebuild a little quicker by trading picks for established talent.
Out of curiosity, in what way is this at all relevant to my post that you quoted?

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10-30-2011, 08:53 PM
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Last in the league in scoring... Goalies and defense are not to blame. If we were losing games 5-4, it would be a different story. JT has 7 of the 18 goals scored and 5 of them were in a 2 game span. We need scoring in a big way..

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10-30-2011, 09:12 PM
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Out of curiosity, in what way is this at all relevant to my post that you quoted?
None, just to used to clicking quote and not reply

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10-30-2011, 09:57 PM
  #41
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Sure, drafting Bailey over Myers may look like a mistake now, but really, how much better would they be with Myers anyway? They still wouldn't make the playoffs.
I don't think it's fair to call things like that a "mistake". If you look at it that way, was Hall, Seguin, Niederreiter, Connolly mistakes over Jeff Skinner? How many mistakes were made before Datsyuk & Zetterberg were drafted? Drafts are a crap shoot in a lot of ways.

I'd say the blunders happen more on player development though. Sure, Bailey's a great example of a Snow mistake but that's not always the case. What gets me is that I have NO IDEA what the team saw in Bailey at 18 to earn him an NHL job?! The reality is, he's a much better player now than when he was 18, and he's still not ready to play an important role on a winning team - I don't get it.

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I think we've missed the boat and unless Snow corrects the blunders he's made
He has made blunders, even though I think Wang's wallet is the driver of many decisions. The NYI are below the cap floor when you look at salary spent on the vast majority of the players. That's the obvious objective here - the rebuild is the biggest smokescreen ever seen in hockey.

That said, the team Snow inherited was no better than a first year expansion team. No talent in the NHL, no prospects. Sure, the team's far ahead of what was the case 4 years ago but this is still a really bad team.

To me, the blunders were in money POORLY spent, no addressing the GLARING holes on the team. If Ehrhoff was an ATTEMPT, you CANNOT convince me that the next best choice is Staois. That's insulting and embarrassing.

Quote:
To be honest, not alot of real positives and as it looks, we can't be sure if its Snow or Wang that has caused the lag.

Just can't see how in todays Cap world, why you can't rebuild a little quicker by trading picks for established talent.
Agreed. You CAN rebuild faster. Say what you will about Burke, but he inherited a team that was as bad as the Isles, especially after losing Sundin. He's improved the team in EVERY area, EXCEPT the coveted #1 centre. But they are younger, much faster, have a great balance of speed and size and skill. He's been BRILLIANT in getting:
- the salary dump Lupul (who can play) and the prospect in Gardiner (who's magnificent)
- the salary dump Lombardi (who can play) and the prospect Franson (he's struggled but he's huge, young, marketable and will get better)

There's a lot more to building a team than picking first overall, or in the top five for a few years.

How you develop and surround your players, fill holes, is a much bigger part of the job than simply drafting and waiting.

All teams have prospects. Dallas spends less than the NYI, drafted Benn in the 5th round, lost Brad Richards and they are in first place.

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10-30-2011, 10:31 PM
  #42
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Last in the league in scoring... Goalies and defense are not to blame. If we were losing games 5-4, it would be a different story. JT has 7 of the 18 goals scored and 5 of them were in a 2 game span. We need scoring in a big way..
That's just not true regarding defense. Your defense is the engine of your team, responsible for shutting down the other club's scoring, and starting the majority of breakouts from your own end. They are commonly the beginning of your transition game. When your defense can't initiate clean breakouts, your team loses just like the Isles have.

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10-30-2011, 11:35 PM
  #43
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The rebuild has to deal with DP big contract.
His salary is just under 10% of team maximum salary.
His salary is over 10% of team minimum salary.

No matter what, we need to build a competitive team with 90% of the caphit salary that other teams have. This is not about DP the person, it is just a fact about DP contract.

Until management is serious about dealing with it - this rebuild is always just words.

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10-30-2011, 11:43 PM
  #44
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4. James Wis. trade, again too early and for picks
i feel like im the only fan that wanted wiz traded before it happened, he absolutely sucked he was no better then MAB and we all hated him

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10-30-2011, 11:53 PM
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As many of us have mentioned, and not to sound like a broken record, but development is just as important as drafting during rebuilds. Management and co. have not surrounded the developing players with enough veteran talent thus far, and I think we are seeing the effects. I don't know how successful pure rebuilds become, but that's the route this organization is going. Personally, I suspect some of the player's respective upsides may not be maximized under these conditions; put these players in the BEST position to succeed.

If Bailey does not develop into the 2nd liner many envisioned, that sets the rebuild back, or slows it down. Then another prospect will have to fill that void, and that could be a few years. Given that management has not committed to adding veteran talent in top-6/top-4 positions, it seems our best hope is that a few of the prospects emerge (beyond the top tier).

Same goes for KO, if he does not solidify himself as a top-6 winger, yet another position to be filled.

The list goes on, what I am trying to say is management is undermining their own players, the same players management (and fandom) are relying upon to take this team to the promised land. The same applies to upcoming prospects. Almost seems like too many things have to fall in place for this to be a fully potentiated success.

I'm not trying to paint a ****-colored picture, for I do not believe the rebuild is a failure, or any of that nonsense. However, I am concerned about the final product of what this rebuild yields, and when that time will come. Another pretender that perpetuates mediocrity on an annual basis, or a true contender that gives us fans CONSISTENT winning seasons, and a few deep journeys into the POs?

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