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All Purpose Proposed Trade Thread (11/30 - Rangers kicking tires on Bobby Ryan)

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Old
11-08-2011, 09:25 PM
  #201
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I think it's perfectly possible to sell to your fanbase that trading your star player will be good for the organization in the long run. Fanbases generally understand that kind of thing. Whether or not Columbus can survive a full-on reset as a market is another question, but I don't think Nash is untradeable from an organizational point of view. Even if they kept Nash and reset the rest of the team, the outcome might still be the same.

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11-08-2011, 09:26 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
I'm baffled by your thought process.

I compared the ticket production sales that both players made because they are franchise players for teams that are losing money and are not performing at anywhere near a playoff level.
NY versus Columbus, Ohio. NY. Versus columbus.
Baseball versus Hockey.
Apples and Oranges.

Quote:
And I don't really need to take into account that possibility. Why? Because that possibility is playing out in front of our eyes. It has been for the duration of his career, and if it continues yielding the results it has been soon enough, the Columbus Blue Jackets will be a perennial bottom feeder with one of the most talented wingers in the league. And that's sure to help them get more fans in attendance consistently though right?

You don't need to take into account multiple possibilites of things? You must get dissapointed a lot

Rick Nash sells tickets. If you trade away your best player, and one of the top wingers in the game, and say to your already dwindling fan base that you are starting over from scratch, it will end the Blue Jackets.

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11-08-2011, 09:31 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I think it's perfectly possible to sell to your fanbase that trading your star player will be good for the organization in the long run. Fanbases generally understand that kind of thing. Whether or not Columbus can survive a full-on reset as a market is another question, but I don't think Nash is untradeable from an organizational point of view. Even if they kept Nash and reset the rest of the team, the outcome might still be the same.
I think the fact that they went out and traded for Carter supports this.

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Old
11-08-2011, 09:41 PM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
NY versus Columbus, Ohio. NY. Versus columbus.
Baseball versus Hockey.
Apples and Oranges.



NY versus Columbus, Ohio. NY. Versus columbus.

You don't need to take into account multiple possibilites of things? You must get dissapointed a lot

Rick Nash sells tickets. If you trade away your best player, and one of the top wingers in the game, and say to your already dwindling fan base that you are starting over from scratch, it will end the Blue Jackets.


just stop talking to me. i'm not comparing the sports, i'm comparing the business and revenues their star players make when the team is struggling for an extended period of time.

i'm tired of you beating around every point i make just so your stubborn boneheaded point can still somehow make sense.

to you, a team losing 45 million dollars annually isn't leading to its end... yea. makes perfect sense.

is the US also not in a recession right now too Dr. Sutton?

multiple possibilities? here are the 2 given:

1) Keeping Rick Nash
2) Trading him and rebuilding.

Number one has been under effect now. The Blue Jackets have 5 points.

They have no core. Successful team's have cores - let me simplify and define that word for you - multiple players of which to build around.

The Blue Jackets have Nash and Jeff Carter (who was traded from Philly because of his insubordination and alleged alcoholic ways). Their defense is spotty, their offense is stagnant, their goalies do not perform.

Nash is 27 this year. By the time the team rebuilds with him, he'll be past his prime.

As you said, the Blue Jackets have never been good. So using what you said, amongst other things, we're going to assume that the Jackets continue to miss the playoffs, and get decent draft picks. Trading Nash not only produces more young talent and draft picks but also adds more possibilities to add more core players. Keeping Nash guarantees nothing, you remain a bottom feeder, and when your draftees are all primed for a playoff push, Rick Nash is old and no longer a thumbnail of his former self.

Not only does trading Nash get you supplemental young talent and picks, but it also means that the organization would promote an in house cleansing, meaning that their cap would likely be at the floor (cutting more losses), and their talent pool will only be rising.

After a few years, if there is visible improvement and hope from these prospects (fans will come to the games just to see the development). More sales.

The timing of having Nash now and the development that Blue Jackets NEED is not there.

The 1st possibility, the one you are arguing for is as I said, playing itself in front of our eyes with terrible results. You said it yourself, it is likely to keep heading that way too.

In which case, logically, you would think that you would be able to understand what would be the solution to this and what would make a franchise more profitable.

How much more do I have to explain?

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Old
11-08-2011, 09:44 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post


just stop talking to me. i'm not comparing the sports, i'm comparing the business and revenues their star players make when the team is struggling for an extended period of time.

i'm tired of you beating around every point i make just so your stubborn boneheaded point can still somehow make sense.

to you, a team losing 45 million dollars annually isn't leading to its end... yea. makes perfect sense.

is the US also not in a recession right now too Dr. Sutton?

multiple possibilities? here are the 2 given:

1) Keeping Rick Nash
2) Trading him and rebuilding.

Number one has been under effect now. The Blue Jackets have 5 points.

They have no core. Successful team's have cores - let me simplify and define that word for you - multiple players of which to build around.

The Blue Jackets have Nash and Jeff Carter (who was traded from Philly because of his insubordination and alleged alcoholic ways). Their defense is spotty, their offense is stagnant, their goalies do not perform.

Nash is 27 this year. By the time the team rebuilds with him, he'll be past his prime.

As you said, the Blue Jackets have never been good. So using what you said, amongst other things, we're going to assume that the Jackets continue to miss the playoffs, and get decent draft picks. Trading Nash not only produces more young talent and draft picks but also adds more possibilities to add more core players. Keeping Nash guarantees nothing, you remain a bottom feeder, and when your draftees are all primed for a playoff push, Rick Nash is old and no longer a thumbnail of his former self.

Not only does trading Nash get you supplemental young talent and picks, but it also means that the organization would promote an in house cleansing, meaning that their cap would likely be at the floor (cutting more losses), and their talent pool will only be rising.

After a few years, if there is visible improvement and hope from these prospects (fans will come to the games just to see the development). More sales.

The timing of having Nash now and the development that Blue Jackets NEED is not there.

The 1st possibility, the one you are arguing for is as I said, playing itself in front of our eyes with terrible results. You said it yourself, it is likely to keep heading that way too.

In which case, logically, you would think that you would be able to understand what would be the solution to this and what would make a franchise more profitable.

How much more do I have to explain?
Hit the ignore button if you don't like what I'm saying. Sorry that I keep proving you wrong.
How can you compare two businesses that are completely different and in different situations?

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Old
11-08-2011, 10:06 PM
  #206
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How much do you think it would take to get Lucic from boston? Or Oshie from the blues?

my guess most definitely more than they're worth but it would be nice to get em at a low price

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Old
11-08-2011, 10:19 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecollarblueshirt View Post
How much do you think it would take to get Lucic from boston? Or Oshie from the blues?

my guess most definitely more than they're worth but it would be nice to get em at a low price
You won't get either for a low price. Both are held very highly by their respective teams. Getting Lucic would take a serious overpayment, getting Oshie would also require a lot more than you'd be willing to offer. You won't be getting either at a low price.

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Old
11-08-2011, 10:39 PM
  #208
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yeah they're good players but not great and one could only think that their organizations overvalue there trade value.

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Old
11-08-2011, 10:50 PM
  #209
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To them: Bobby Granger

for

To us: Peggy and a 3rd

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Old
11-08-2011, 11:03 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecollarblueshirt View Post
yeah they're good players but not great and one could only think that their organizations overvalue there trade value.
I disagree. Lucic is the ideal power forward at just 23 and produced 62 points last season. Could he be overrated a bit? Maybe, but unless he regresses a ton, his value is still very high and will remain that way if he continues to do well on Boston's top line.

Oshie is just 24 and is a big part of the Blues organization. There are high expectations for him. He put up 34 points in just 49 games last season. The Blues won't let him go for anything.

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Old
11-08-2011, 11:42 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecollarblueshirt View Post
yeah they're good players but not great and one could only think that their organizations overvalue there trade value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jefferek Stepaninner View Post
I disagree. Lucic is the ideal power forward at just 23 and produced 62 points last season. Could he be overrated a bit? Maybe, but unless he regresses a ton, his value is still very high and will remain that way if he continues to do well on Boston's top line.

Oshie is just 24 and is a big part of the Blues organization. There are high expectations for him. He put up 34 points in just 49 games last season. The Blues won't let him go for anything.
I wouldn't say that they are "overvalued" but they are definitely viewed very highly by not only their respective organizations but also their fan bases. They're both still fairly young. The type of game Lucic plays fills a need/role for Boston's lineup that I don't see really any of their other forwards being able to replace. You might find a guy or two on their roster who can play a 2.0 version of Lucic's game but it just wouldnt be the same. As much as I hate playing against Lucic I LOVE the way he plays. He plays with snarl and aggressiveness. He's the type of player that can get his team going with one shift. He is always driving to the net/standing in front of the net. And he's got decent hands for a power forward.

As far as Oshie goes. Same type of deal in St.Louis, different style of play. He's talented. That organization just hired Hitchcock. They need to turn it around. That's not gona start by dealing away one of their better younger players.

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Old
11-09-2011, 06:21 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by DrSutton View Post
Kreider has about zero value compared to SeGuin right now
That's a ridiculous statement. Boston would not do that deal but zero value?

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Old
11-09-2011, 06:33 AM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
That's a ridiculous statement. Boston would not do that deal but zero value?
He has zero value COMPARED TO SEGUIN.
A prospect for a burgeoning superstar? Zero value because at this point Seguin is untouchable. Even packaging Kreider is pretty much useless. Just because he grew up a Bruins fan, doesn't mean they are going to trade their current (and future) best player for him.

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Old
11-09-2011, 08:31 AM
  #214
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Here's the thing with Nash -- I dont think he ever envisioned Steve Mason to become as bad as he's become. When he signed the contract and the full NMC, the Jackets were coming off their first-ever playoff berth, and Steve Mason was being called the next Ken Dryden. We all saw some stability there.

Since then, they have been garbage. In fact, since Nash was drafted, Columbus has traded FIVE top-10 draft picks. They even traded the two top-10 picks drafted before Nash arrived.

I mean, does Nash really think he can wait four more years until Moore, Johansen and Yakupov are peaking?

I've been to Columbus. It's nothing special. It's got OSU, Dave Thomas' first Wendy's and neat rowsof crack houses once you cross the bridge. If Nash remains loyal to the city, and turns down offers to play in bigger markets with better players, then he needs to get flown to Oslo and get seated alongside the Dalai Lama.

Personally, i think he gets traded next season.

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Old
11-09-2011, 10:35 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by BKBlackRanger View Post
To them: Bobby Granger

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To us: Peggy and a 3rd
Seriously? A third?? If anything they should be adding a pick. Peggy is UFA after this year and granger is signed to a great deal through 2013. Plus, we don't really have a top12 spot for Peggy right now because dale purinton is much better than him.

(typical HF response)

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Old
11-09-2011, 03:52 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
That's a ridiculous statement. Boston would not do that deal but zero value?
Don't fight it. The guy is convinced that he must be right, no matter how stupid his statement is.

That being said. It's highly unlikely the Bruins trade Seguin just because they are not only a successful franchise coming off of a Cup victory, but he's also essentially their top prospect.

I wouldn't go as far to say as Dr. Sutton, that he's their best player right now. I mean he had 11 goals and 11 assists in 74 games last year and despite his ridiculous start he might come back down to earth relatively soon. 13 games is too small of a sample size to really judge anyone.

I'd compare it to the Stamkos trade rumors. Young, relatively cheap, amazingly talented player. There is no reason to trade him at this point in time, unless he's unhappy and voices his displeasure (which it doesn't seem he's doing).

Hypothetically, before this season, Kreider for Seguin could have been the framework for a larger trade. Obviously, I would think the Rangers would have needed to add more, but given his streaky performances last year, had the Rangers grossly overpaid, who knows... But at this point in time, not very unlikely.

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11-09-2011, 04:07 PM
  #217
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Some of you would fail a third grade reading comprehension exam. All he said was that COMPARED TO SEGUIN, Kreider has zero value.

Kreider has a lot of value, as far as prospects go. He's probably the most valuable NCAA prospect. But compared to SEGUIN who is one year removed from being the #2 overall pick, a few months removed from winning the Stanley cup, and having a hot start to this season, Kreider's value is insignficant. You couldn't add enough first rounders to Kreider to get SEGUIN. You'd have to give up Stepan, Dubinsky, McDonagh along with Kreider and a first to even make them not hang up the phone and CONSIDER it. Tyler Seguin is an elite young center on a ELC. Kreider has yet to prove he can even handle the NHL. its a non-conversation.

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11-09-2011, 08:06 PM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Some of you would fail a third grade reading comprehension exam. All he said was that COMPARED TO SEGUIN, Kreider has zero value.

Kreider has a lot of value, as far as prospects go. He's probably the most valuable NCAA prospect. But compared to SEGUIN who is one year removed from being the #2 overall pick, a few months removed from winning the Stanley cup, and having a hot start to this season, Kreider's value is insignficant. You couldn't add enough first rounders to Kreider to get SEGUIN. You'd have to give up Stepan, Dubinsky, McDonagh along with Kreider and a first to even make them not hang up the phone and CONSIDER it. Tyler Seguin is an elite young center on a ELC. Kreider has yet to prove he can even handle the NHL. its a non-conversation.
Including yourself?

I wasn't comparing Kreider's value to Seguin's. I was just saying that the Bruins had no reason to trade Seguin because of their current success with him, his age, his significance to their plans of the future, and his cap hit.

... pretty much reinforcing your point.

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Old
11-10-2011, 12:31 PM
  #219
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Dubinsky+Anisimov+Wolski+McIlrath+Thomas+1st+2nd for Nash.


Next year:

Nash-Richards-Gaborik
Kreider-Stepan-Callahan
Hagelin-???-Miller
Rupp-Boyle-Prust

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Old
11-10-2011, 12:42 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Dubinsky+Anisimov+Wolski+McIlrath+Thomas+1st+2nd for Nash.


Next year:

Nash-Richards-Gaborik
Kreider-Stepan-Callahan
Hagelin-???-Miller
Rupp-Boyle-Prust
No Anisimov. (We need to retain our skill, also very rarely do you have a big skilled player who is also proficient defensively.)

The most I'd be willing to part with is:

Dubinsky
Wolski
Kreider (I'd prefer a different prospect, but in the end I'd bite if they insisted on Kreider. Logic =Nash will always be better than Kreider)
1st

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Old
11-10-2011, 12:54 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by NYRfan68 View Post
No Anisimov. (We need to retain our skill, also very rarely do you have a big skilled player who is also proficient defensively.)

The most I'd be willing to part with is:

Dubinsky
Wolski
Kreider (I'd prefer a different prospect, but in the end I'd bite if they insisted on Kreider. Logic =Nash will always be better than Kreider)
1st
I don't think the Rangers would have to add Kreider.

If you cover the cap hit with Dubinsky and Wolski, the rest would be filling their cupboard back up and I don't think Columbus could afford to take "prospects" with unproven levels of success. Granted Kreider seems like a lock, but figure Dubinsky continues to produce 50 points a year for them. Wolski even in an off year gets them 30 points. Thats more than what Nash gives them.

So add either Del Zotto, or Erixon because clearly we would not offer one of Staal, Girardi, McD, or Sauer.

I'd give them a good young point producing player in Zuccarello who could find more success in the west. Then top it off with a 1st round pick.

I'd ask Columbus for Nash + Boll ( who imo brings that energy and physicality that Avery does but at almost a 1/3rd the cap hit)

Nash + Boll = 8.525

Dubinsky + Wolski = 8.0
Erixon = 0 cap relief
Zuccarello = 0 Cap relief
1st round pick.

However demote Avery saves 1.9375. So the rangers actually save cap space, and even a bit more with Stralman signed and them demoting Woywitka as well.

Nash - Richards - Callahan
Anisimov - Stepan - Gaborik
Fedotenko - Boyle - Prust
Rupp - Christensen - Boll

Bottom line if Stepan and Gaborik maintain their chemistry and Richards doesn't gain any with Dubinsky and Cally, then this team needs to protect their investment with Richards and get him a scoring winger. Nash plays that possession game using that massive body of his that would really help Richards and can obviously snipe with the best of them. Plus having a 1-2 line combo with that top 6, on top of having physical grinding wingers like Feds, Prust, Rupp, and Boll...Thats exactly how you want your 4 lines to be..My only switch would be finding a good face-off physical 4th line center. Besides that that line up is perfection.

Each of the top 2 lines has a great defensive winger (Callahan, & Anisimov) then the scoring talent in Richards + Nash, then Stepan + Gaborik..

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Old
11-10-2011, 01:11 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroadwayBlues View Post
Dubinsky+Anisimov+Wolski+McIlrath+Thomas+1st+2nd for Nash.


Next year:

Nash-Richards-Gaborik
Kreider-Stepan-Callahan
Hagelin-???-Miller
Rupp-Boyle-Prust
This is just pure insanity. Talk about depleting the system. Not to mention you give up two young forwards who are starting to mature into solid 2nd line NHLers. Just stop. The team is 2 points behind Pittsburgh without Marc Staal and PIT having a game in hand. You dont overpay when you're team is already pretty solid.

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Old
11-10-2011, 02:54 PM
  #223
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louie eriksson for dubinsky wolski and zuccarello if they insist a mid round pick. or a decent prospect. Make it happen

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Old
11-10-2011, 03:06 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by bluecollarblueshirt View Post
louie eriksson for dubinsky wolski and zuccarello if they insist a mid round pick. or a decent prospect. Make it happen
Oh wow a mid round pick too? Where does Joe Sign?


Ughh. This proposal thread was a terrible idea.

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Old
11-10-2011, 03:09 PM
  #225
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Oh wow a mid round pick too? Where does Joe Sign?


Ughh. This proposal thread was a terrible idea.
It always is.

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