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Is there a historical comparison for PK Subban?

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Old
11-05-2011, 12:04 PM
  #26
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot View Post
Subban is a talented guy, but based upon his recent Marchand dance, 30 years ago someone like O'reilly or Nystrom would have taken him into the corner and the theatrics would have been short lived.

Cultures change, but as he matures both off and on the ice, I'm sure the theatrics will die down and the good hits will keep on coming.
To a point but look at Chelios, he couldn't fight worth a crap either and he was even more physically abrasive than Subban, especially in the cheapshot department.
And Chelios not only survived, he thrived.

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11-05-2011, 12:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
I wouldn't exactly call Subban tough. 20-30 years ago, He would've been pounded into the Ice , do to the lax rules in Fighting. He's very talented, but tries too hard to get under other players skin. He should concentrate on His game moreso then being a pest.
The thing is... if he would have played 20-30 years ago, he would probably have developped better fighting skills and toughness (and probably less agitation skills). On a somewhat related topic, Subban probably wouldn't have weighted 215 pounds at 22 years old (the guy is 5'11...), but if he somehow did, he would probably have been stronger than 98% of the guys in the league. So this is something of a moot point : players adapt. I mean... Gordie Howe would probably not be known as Mr. Elbows if he played in 2011 (and if he did, he wouldn't have a career, cause he'd always be suspended), but he'd probably be tougher than 99% of the league as well. Subban wouldn't have turned into Ed Hospodar or something...

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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Jovanovski? Suspect defensively, great offensive skills, brash kid with a ton of swagger and liked to mix it up.
Actually, much of Jovanovski's skillset is defined by the fact that he's 6'5... Subban is 5'11.

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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Maybe a bit of pre injury Bryan Berard with his speed and offense and cockiness and occasional defensive liability.
The thing is -- Subban is extremely solid defensively for a 22 years old guy. Main problem is exagerated risk-taking (in 2011). He's absolutely not a defensive liability. Well... actually, he is, but that's not because he lacks the fundamentals of defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianscot View Post
Subban is a talented guy, but based upon his recent Marchand dance, 30 years ago someone like O'reilly or Nystrom would have taken him into the corner and the theatrics would have been short lived.

Cultures change, but as he matures both off and on the ice, I'm sure the theatrics will die down and the good hits will keep on coming.
As I said before : 30 years ago, Subban would have had to develop his fighting skills, and 30 years ago, O'Reilly and Nystrom couldn't have touched Subban either without first fighing Nilan (or anybody the Habs had -- Lupien, Bouchard... or even Serge Savard for that matter), so that's something of a moot point -- PK Subban might have had to fight, but probably not against the main fighters. If we don't considerer "adaptation to the game", then we must disconsider the whole strength vs. era discrepancy, in which case a guy like Subban would probably have been A LOT stronger than the Nystroms of the league as well (not sure about O'Reilly, but again, if we disregard the fact that hockey was way different then, we must also disregard the fact that PK Subban is probably a stronger man at 22 than O'Reilly ever was). I mean... O'Reilly wasn't Gillies, Beck or Wilson as far as brute strength is concerned. (... I think).

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Pierre Pilote
Good call!

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Old
11-05-2011, 01:51 PM
  #28
Rhiessan71
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Subban is listed at 6' actually and closer to 6'1" (he has been listed at 6'1" previously)

Jovanovski is listed as 6'3" and has been previously listed at 6'2" but certainly not 6'5".

It's kinda like Ray Bourque, he has been listed as 5'11" or 6' throughout the years but I don't think anyone would call him small, especially at the 220+lbs he played at. He never looked small and neither does PK.
I think the listing of PK at 206lbs is from last year as well, atm he's much closer to the 210-215 range imo.

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11-07-2011, 03:33 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Subban would be a mix of a lesser version of Bobby Orr and someone else...
little early for that, no?




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Old
11-07-2011, 05:39 PM
  #30
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King Clancy?

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11-07-2011, 06:34 PM
  #31
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King Clancy?
Ding Ding Ding!

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Old
11-07-2011, 09:12 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
The thing is -- Subban is extremely solid defensively for a 22 years old guy. Main problem is exagerated risk-taking (in 2011). He's absolutely not a defensive liability. Well... actually, he is, but that's not because he lacks the fundamentals of defense.
Berard was described as a 'thoroughbred' that had to be reigned in, so his defensive liability was also a result of risk taking...

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11-07-2011, 09:13 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
King Clancy?
Oooh, good one...

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Old
11-07-2011, 09:19 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Berard was described as a 'thoroughbred' that had to be reigned in, so his defensive liability was also a result of risk taking...
Berard lacked the fundamentals to play efficient defense... That's actually how I remember him.

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Old
09-12-2013, 05:07 AM
  #35
TheDevilMadeMe
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I'm bumping this almost 2 year old thread now because I'm curious to know what people think now that Subban has won his (controversial) Norris.

Just keep it clean.

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09-12-2013, 06:23 AM
  #36
Psycho Papa Joe
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I think habs era Chelios is still the best comparison, with better skating and less dirty play.

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Old
09-12-2013, 07:24 AM
  #37
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I've watched him since he was 16 and he is truly a very unique talent.

He has the Orr like ability to rush the puck (no I am not saying he is Orr), has a point shot that is one of the hardest in the league, has the ability to agitate very well and can throw huge hits when he needs to. He has also improved his defense quite a bit. In addition, he is a ****ing physical specimen (see below).

Skating -> A
Shot -> A
Vision -> B+
Defense -> B
Physicality -> B+
Fighting -> D
Athleticism -> A

There are players who are similar but no one I can think of that fits every one of those perfectly.




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Old
09-12-2013, 07:48 AM
  #38
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There's no other player like Subban. He have a rare skillset to say the least, and this is the main reason i wouldn't trade him for any other defensemen in the league.

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09-12-2013, 08:16 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Subban would be a mix of a lesser version of Bobby Orr and someone else...
My thought exactly after reading the posts before yours. Maybe Rob Ramage or Reed Larson or something.


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Old
09-12-2013, 08:26 AM
  #40
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Reminds me of Paul Reinhart.

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Old
09-12-2013, 08:35 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Subban would be a mix of a lesser version of Bobby Orr and someone else...
Just stop.

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Old
09-12-2013, 08:43 AM
  #42
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P.K. Subban

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
I've watched him since he was 16 and he is truly a very unique talent.

He has the Orr like ability to rush the puck (no I am not saying he is Orr), has a point shot that is one of the hardest in the league, has the ability to agitate very well and can throw huge hits when he needs to. He has also improved his defense quite a bit. In addition, he is a ****ing physical specimen (see below).

Skating -> A
Shot -> A
Vision -> B+
Defense -> B
Physicality -> B+
Fighting -> D
Athleticism -> A

There are players who are similar but no one I can think of that fits every one of those perfectly.
Overly generous assessment.

Skating. Strong skater BUT only effective on the RH side of the ice. Unlike Orr who was equally effective being able to defend and attack from either side and the middle. On the rush - Subban is a RHS,needs to carry the puck on the board side. Puck control and stickhandling is too weak if the puck is exposed to the middle.

Shot, As such excellent but limited. No touch elements that Harvey, Orr, Bourque, Lidstrom had. No slap pass, no finesse. Just blasts.

Vision. Any edge is cancelled by poor on ice geometry. Runs around too much.Not efficient with arcs, lines, movement. Does not appreciate letting the play come to him.

Defense. Definite work in progress, high ceiling but far from polished.

Physicality. Enthusiastic but poor checker. Does more damage to the boards than the opposition. Throws checks that take him out of the play. Poor leveraging skills in front of the net and bottom half of the defensive zone. Allows the opposition to get inside to his body.

Fighting/Athleticism. Shouldn't fight as it takes away ice time and energy. Athletic but not polished, raw. Combined the two since for someone who is athletic Subban does not show basic boxing skills like Bobby Orr did. Hands are not fast, movement is not smooth. Watch Evander Kane whose father boxed, now trains boxers, to see the difference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW9Sp-WndwA

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Old
09-12-2013, 09:06 AM
  #43
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he's a more talented kevin hatcher (the young k.h.)

lol, great skater, a hint of out of control at all times. elbows and feet and knees and stuff flyin out randomly along the way annoying the hell out of opponents.

love pk subban's game. easily one of the best most unique 24yr olds i have ever seen, and he's just now hitting what should be his prime. habs fans = lucky.

he does play bigger than 6' it seems too....

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Old
09-12-2013, 10:41 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post

Skating -> A
Shot -> A
Vision -> B+
Defense -> B
Physicality -> B+
Fighting -> D
Athleticism -> A

There are players who are similar but no one I can think of that fits every one of those perfectly.
Skating -> A
Shot -> B-
Vision -> C-
Defense -> C
Physicality -> B-
Fighting -> D
Athleticism -> A+
Hockey IQ -> Average to Below Average
Finish -> Definitely requires the assistance of personal Coaching -> Unfinished

Unfortunately there are in fact far too many players similar to PK Subban in the league, tool box incomplete, no tool box at all or whatever. That someones who's not exactly reliable defensively in all situations would win the Norris is more testament to just how far down the ladder once absolutely mandatory skills & hockey crafts have fallen. Dont get me wrong, he's amongst the best of his generation however, he like so many I find extremely frustrating to watch at times due to his propensities to run around, completely & utterly miss his man in really not even attempting to "check" but to annihilate with "hits"; chasing the puck & play rather than being patient & being two or three steps ahead; seemingly not understanding that for every action theres a reaction; head down shot burner from the point; lack of critical thought; no understanding of angles apparently yet athletically very gifted. He's entering middle age for a hockey player and has a lot of bad habits. Old saying that you cant teach an old dog new tricks, and he's got a lot of bad habits. Keeps goin the way he's goin, liable to find himself badly injured one of these days in a one car accident with himself. The guy really needs to smarten up his game if he's even capable of it. Take a look at Wendel Clark for eg, ex-Defenceman converted to forward. His career ended early due to his style of play however at Least Wendel made contact with his intended check. Stapled guys to the boards, took em out mid-ice, understood angles, leverage. Was seriously feared out there. Dangerous. Not seeing any of that in Subban.


Last edited by Killion: 09-12-2013 at 10:47 AM.
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Old
09-12-2013, 10:51 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Overly generous assessment.
I'll agree with you there, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Skating. Strong skater BUT only effective on the RH side of the ice. Unlike Orr who was equally effective being able to defend and attack from either side and the middle. On the rush - Subban is a RHS,needs to carry the puck on the board side. Puck control and stickhandling is too weak if the puck is exposed to the middle.
I don't know about that one. Naturally PK starts off wherever he gets the puck, but he seems as willing to take whichever side of the ice the opposition leaves open with his rushes. In fact, I'd say one of his "signature" moves through neutral zone traffic involves using one hand on the stick on his backhand, one arm to shield the puck, as he leans in on defenders while making cuts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Vision. Any edge is cancelled by poor on ice geometry. Runs around too much.Not efficient with arcs, lines, movement. Does not appreciate letting the play come to him.
I think that was far more of a problem in year 1 than it was last year. FAR more. But not totally removed from his game, I'll give you that.

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Old
09-12-2013, 11:53 AM
  #46
gifted88
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Good call!
Seems more fitting now that he's won a norris.

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Old
09-12-2013, 01:03 PM
  #47
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For me, I'd say he is very much like Berard in several aspects of the game - except one. Subban is a pest. I'll get to that in a second, but more on Berard. They are similar because they could both rush the puck, lead the rush and were a threat to do so. But neither were/are particularly strong in their own end, they make some defensive gaffes (which Subban may eventually correct). Subban is more physical than Berard was and is much more of an agitator. Which I don't care for so much. He has too much talent to be a sideshow like Sean Avery was. Stand your ground, be tough and drop the mitts when you have to sure, but beat the other team with the blade of your stick, don't hurt your own team with your mouth. We've seen it happen to Crosby too many times as well. Subban is the same way. So when we say he is "unique" it is almost a backhanded compliment because he has some flaws I don't like.

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Old
09-12-2013, 01:08 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Maybe in terms of agitation, but Chelios was always better defensively than he was offensively even when he was putting up good numbers.

Maybe I haven't watched enough recent Montreal games, but isn't Subban more offensive than defensive?
Watch him some more and I don't mean that rudely. Subban is better defensively than offensively. People look at gaudy numbers and assume he's poor defensively, but is a great shutdown defence man.

EDIT: Just realized this was two years ago.


Last edited by CanadienShark: 09-12-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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Old
09-12-2013, 02:26 PM
  #49
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Sergei Zubov?

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Old
09-12-2013, 02:39 PM
  #50
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I like the Guy Lapointe parallel.

Also, a pocket-sized Larry Robinson.


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