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Is there a historical comparison for PK Subban?

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Old
09-12-2013, 04:17 PM
  #51
Ogie Goldthorpe
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Jovo was the first I though of... Chelios and Clancy are good picks too.

Potvin? Suter?

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09-12-2013, 05:37 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
To a point but look at Chelios, he couldn't fight worth a crap either and he was even more physically abrasive than Subban, especially in the cheapshot department.
And Chelios not only survived, he thrived.
Eh. People were sort of afraid of Chelios, though, with the crazy eyes and unpredictable temper. The next guy who appears to be afraid of Subban would be the first.

Guy reminds me of Jarkko Ruutu more than anything with his shenanigans, though he's not nearly as funny, not a forward and far more talented.

Frankly, I think he'd be more effective if he just stuck to skating, passing, shooting, throwing the occasional big hit, etc. Unlike a Ruutu or a Marchand, his "agitation" seems to get him off his game more than it does the other guy.

Edit: and I have responded to someone regarding something they said two years ago.

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09-13-2013, 12:01 AM
  #53
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I watched nearly all the Canadiens' games last season, and I believe Subban has improved considerably. Most of the faults mentioned by the two old-timers who are now (hurray!) moderators, Canadiens1958 and Killion, have been toned down. He is less chippy. He is more selective in picking his spots for his rushes and is not caught up ice nearly as much. I also believe some comments may underestimate the value of experience, which should make Subban, with his skills, one of the greats. I agree with the commenter who says there isn't a defenseman in the league that he would trade Subban for. I'm grateful Subban wears the bleu, blanc et rouge.

The Canadiens signed Subban on a pretty low short-term contract after his holdout at the start of the last season. Many Canadiens fans were ticked off at him, believing he was greedy. That turned out not to be the case. The Canadiens will now pay the price for that short-term contract because they are now dealing with a Norris Trophy winner. Last year they could have signed him to a long-term contract much lower than what they will now pay for such a contract. I don't have much interest in the financial side of the game, discussion of which now seems to have overtaken actual performance on the ice as the No. 1 topic in many of the hockey discussion forums I visit. So I'm willing to be corrected on any of the above.


Last edited by Peter9: 09-13-2013 at 12:09 AM.
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09-13-2013, 12:16 PM
  #54
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People say Lapointe, but Lapointe was definitely better in his own end. From an offensive perspective I can see what people mean though.

Just thought of something, the last Hab skater to win a major award was Robinson in 1980. Isn't that amazing? No Art Ross awards, Norrises, etc. The Hart and Vezina were won by Theodore and then the Vezina and Conn Smythe have been won by Roy. But no skater in 33 years until Subban wins the Norris.

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09-13-2013, 12:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
People say Lapointe, but Lapointe was definitely better in his own end. From an offensive perspective I can see what people mean though.

Just thought of something, the last Hab skater to win a major award was Robinson in 1980. Isn't that amazing? No Art Ross awards, Norrises, etc. The Hart and Vezina were won by Theodore and then the Vezina and Conn Smythe have been won by Roy. But no skater in 33 years until Subban wins the Norris.
Chelios won the Norris in 89
Carbonneau and Gainey have won Selkes
Koivu and Pacioretty won the Masterdon
I think Naslund won a Bing

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09-13-2013, 01:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Koivu and Pacioretty won the Masterdon
I think Naslund won a Bing
I think the Masterdon is an extinct award, and ironically, no amount of award searching yielded a Bing result.


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09-13-2013, 01:08 PM
  #57
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I think the Masterdon is an extinct award, and ironically, no amount of award searching yielded a Bing result.

So I can't spell. Sue me

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09-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #58
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So I can't spell. Sue me
Just rockin' some play on words with mastadon and Bing Search, yo.

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09-13-2013, 01:22 PM
  #59
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I like the reinhart, ramage, Kevin Hatcher, Larson comparisons. Throw Al Iafrate into that mix as well.

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09-13-2013, 04:50 PM
  #60
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It's disingenuous that post after post refer to Subban's attitude and antics despite the fact that players all over the league behave in a similar fashion. Sydney Crosby doesn't catch this kind of grief and his act is at least as bad if not far worse. Not a single post points out the fact that PK Subban clearly has a better work ethic than most other players in the league.

Subban has taken a Great Leap Forward every year since MTL supposedly reached for him in the 2nd round. He went from being a reserve on Team Canada at the WJC to being named to that tournament's all-star team to being an AHL all-star to a late-season call-up and impact player in the SC play-offs to being named to the NHL All-Rookie team despite some holes in his game to being an NHL All-Star and Norris winner. Not bad for an undisciplined defenseman from Belleville who was inconsistent in his own zone. Players that age don't typically continue to develop at such a rate unless they are determined and put a ridiculous amount of time into improving their game.

I don't disagree that PK's game could use some maturing. I just think people fail to realize how far he's come and how young he actually is.

I think a better exercise would be to name players who have exhibited the same ridiculous learning curve as PK Subban has displayed. One player that comes to mind for me is his arch-rival and kindred spirit, Brad Marchand.

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09-13-2013, 07:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Chelios won the Norris in 89
Carbonneau and Gainey have won Selkes
Koivu and Pacioretty won the Masterdon
I think Naslund won a Bing
Ah, Chelios, that's right. I knew one would come to bite me. You know, nothing against the Selke but I did say "major" awards. I thought people usually knew that the Selke isn't considered a "major" award. Or the Byng. Or the Masterton. I always narrow it down to Hart, Ross, Norris, Vezina and for good measure the Conn Smythe. But you got me on Chelios.

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09-13-2013, 07:45 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Paeplow View Post
It's disingenuous that post after post refer to Subban's attitude and antics despite the fact that players all over the league behave in a similar fashion. Sydney Crosby doesn't catch this kind of grief and his act is at least as bad if not far worse. Not a single post points out the fact that PK Subban clearly has a better work ethic than most other players in the league.

Subban has taken a Great Leap Forward every year since MTL supposedly reached for him in the 2nd round. He went from being a reserve on Team Canada at the WJC to being named to that tournament's all-star team to being an AHL all-star to a late-season call-up and impact player in the SC play-offs to being named to the NHL All-Rookie team despite some holes in his game to being an NHL All-Star and Norris winner. Not bad for an undisciplined defenseman from Belleville who was inconsistent in his own zone. Players that age don't typically continue to develop at such a rate unless they are determined and put a ridiculous amount of time into improving their game.
Call it what it really is weak CHL and NCAA coaching. P.K. Subban was drafted in the 2nd round, 43rd overall.

In their respective NHL Entry Draft year, the following were drafted below 43rd. Duncan Keith, Kris Letang, Shea Weber, Keith Yandle.

The work ethic switch was on all along. It was poorly directed and formed.

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09-13-2013, 08:00 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pat Paeplow View Post
Not a single post points out the fact that PK Subban clearly has a better work ethic than most other players in the league....I don't disagree that PK's game could use some maturing. I just think people fail to realize how far he's come and how young he actually is.
You dont "disagree" huh? Well. I hate to be a Sledgehammer mean n' nasty piece a work but the guys now what, 24? If your standard for a Norris Trophy Winner's that low I dont what to tell you. Ya Im a Leafs fan. Nothin to do with some non-existent burning hatred against Montreal or PQ. Far from it. But c'mon here. Subban? You joking me/us? Not a frikin chance that guy was, is or even will be what you promise so better you stop now before I or someone else absolutely takes his game apart on screen. Great little athlete. But where are your standards? Look. The guy has not shown the intellect, brains, hockey IQ to get beyond where he's at. You can not teach that. Savvy?

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09-13-2013, 08:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Jovanovski? Suspect defensively, great offensive skills, brash kid with a ton of swagger and liked to mix it up.
I love opinion like these, totally out to lunch and based off of Jr day scouting reports. Subban's defense is greater than Subban's offense. Anyone who watched him more than a few times would agree.

His puck possession and ability to drive the play to the opposite end is off the charts.

Edit: I realize this was two years ago, however, I still see people offering up the same [mod] analysis.


Last edited by Fugu: 09-13-2013 at 09:01 PM. Reason: don't mix up opinion with fact
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09-13-2013, 08:14 PM
  #65
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I'm bumping this almost 2 year old thread now because I'm curious to know what people think now that Subban has won his (controversial) Norris.

Just keep it clean.
Nothing controversial about it imo.

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09-13-2013, 08:40 PM
  #66
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You dont "disagree" huh? Well. I hate to be a Sledgehammer mean n' nasty piece a work but the guys now what, 24? If your standard for a Norris Trophy Winner's that low I dont what to tell you. Ya Im a Leafs fan. Nothin to do with some non-existent burning hatred against Montreal or PQ. Far from it. But c'mon here. Subban? You joking me/us? Not a frikin chance that guy was, is or even will be what you promise so better you stop now before I or someone else absolutely takes his game apart on screen. Great little athlete. But where are your standards? Look. The guy has not shown the intellect, brains, hockey IQ to get beyond where he's at. You can not teach that. Savvy?
I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree. I don't doubt that someone couldn't post video of him making several errors. But like I previously stated, he has an uncommon, above average work ethic. I think this assures he will continue to improve, barring injury of course.

I also feel that, while his hockey IQ may not be the cornerstone of his game, it isn't a detriment, an aspect of his game that will continue to improve.

Whatever the case, I guess my underlying point is that there are positives to PKs attitude that outweigh the negatives many are so quick to point out.

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09-13-2013, 09:05 PM
  #67
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The guy has not shown the intellect, brains, hockey IQ to get beyond where he's at. You can not teach that. Savvy?
What can't be taught is not the same thing as what can't be learned.

I'm not a Montreal fan, or a Subban fan. I'm actually pretty neutral to both parties. In fact, the only time I think about Subban is probably once every four years, when players are up for Olympic roster spots.

With that being said, the kid's a winner. People know he has the work ethic. People can argue about his potential. But he knows how to improve and how to play the game the way he wants to play it, and play it at a high level.

As it stands, Subban is a top-eight Canadian defenceman and within the top 12 defencemen overall. That's not a knock on him. He shows that he is able to gain maturity through his experiences, and he has improved because of that.

He will continue to mature and he will likely continue to show the edginess to his play, that certain brand of "brattiness" fans don't necessarily love to see against their team but wouldn't mind to have on theirs. In my opinion, Subban is a good example of a better-skating, slightly less physical Chris Pronger. And that cannot be a bad thing for hockey, especially since at the tender age of 24, he still has around 2-3 years before he enters the defenceman's prime age of 27-28.

EDIT: In addition to that, he'll probably win another Norris or two if his progress really is any indication of his ceiling. I don't think he's a generational talent or anything but the short-season Norris was one positive to him - if he can endure an entire season, debates like these should be put to rest.


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09-13-2013, 09:59 PM
  #68
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09-13-2013, 10:16 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Pat Paeplow View Post
I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree.
Correct.Entitled to your opinion. Good luck with that Pat...

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09-13-2013, 10:16 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Ah, Chelios, that's right. I knew one would come to bite me. You know, nothing against the Selke but I did say "major" awards. I thought people usually knew that the Selke isn't considered a "major" award. Or the Byng. Or the Masterton. I always narrow it down to Hart, Ross, Norris, Vezina and for good measure the Conn Smythe. But you got me on Chelios.
Personally I consider those major awards, but point taken.

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09-14-2013, 01:17 AM
  #71
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Nothing controversial about it imo.
Well, for starters, there's more to being the best defenseman in the NHL than being the best PP defenseman in the NHL. 42 games of excellent PP hockey doesn't make a norris winner. Well, the silly award voters thought so, but they also didn't know what wing Ovechkin played this year, so...

Subban had a great PP season but he wasn't even in the top-30 in ES points by defensemen. He wasn't top-30 in TOI either. He wasn't even 1st on his own team in TOI.

No Norris winner has ever been so far down the leaderboard in TOI as Subban was last season. Or even close. It goes without saying as well that all other Norris winners have been their own team's TOI leader.

You don't even have to think other parts of his game are terrible to see this (and they aren't). You just have to accept that he won the award because he had the most points (which the voting reporters give way too much weight to), and he had the most points not because he was the best offensive defenseman at ES (which is about 75% of the game) but because he was the best on the PP (which is about 12% of the game).

And you know what else? If a defenseman came along that was SUCH a wizard on the PP, that you could ignore that his own coach liked another defenseman's overall game enough to play him a minute more per game, and his offensive stats were SO dominant compared to the other defensemen in the league, I could even toss such arguments aside and agree that he deserves a Norris (closest comparison would be Eriksson last year or Coffey in 1985 and 1986, but even those two led their teams in TOI by wide margins). But Subban was not such a player. He merely led defensemen in points. He did not lap the field.

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09-14-2013, 01:53 AM
  #72
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The point about the TOI is an interesting one, because how do you account for the fact that Subban being lower in TOI had nothing to do with his play and everything to do with Therrien's coaching?

It was very popular with the Karlsson win as well to look at his TOI totals and conclude he was rubbish defensively, when that was just a product of the way his coach decided to utilize him.

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09-14-2013, 02:27 AM
  #73
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The point about the TOI is an interesting one, because how do you account for the fact that Subban being lower in TOI had nothing to do with his play and everything to do with Therrien's coaching?
Therrien wants to win hockey games, and knows how to do it better than we do. If a minute more for Subban and a minute less for Markov would have been beneficial, he probably would have done it.

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It was very popular with the Karlsson win as well to look at his TOI totals and conclude he was rubbish defensively, when that was just a product of the way his coach decided to utilize him.
wut? He played 25 minutes per game, easily led his team and was 9th in the league. A tad low for a norris winner, but well within the range. The sorry side of 30th is a completely different range.

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09-14-2013, 06:04 AM
  #74
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Well, for starters, there's more to being the best defenseman in the NHL than being the best PP defenseman in the NHL. 42 games of excellent PP hockey doesn't make a norris winner. Well, the silly award voters thought so, but they also didn't know what wing Ovechkin played this year, so...

Subban had a great PP season but he wasn't even in the top-30 in ES points by defensemen. He wasn't top-30 in TOI either. He wasn't even 1st on his own team in TOI.

No Norris winner has ever been so far down the leaderboard in TOI as Subban was last season. Or even close. It goes without saying as well that all other Norris winners have been their own team's TOI leader.

You don't even have to think other parts of his game are terrible to see this (and they aren't). You just have to accept that he won the award because he had the most points (which the voting reporters give way too much weight to), and he had the most points not because he was the best offensive defenseman at ES (which is about 75% of the game) but because he was the best on the PP (which is about 12% of the game).

And you know what else? If a defenseman came along that was SUCH a wizard on the PP, that you could ignore that his own coach liked another defenseman's overall game enough to play him a minute more per game, and his offensive stats were SO dominant compared to the other defensemen in the league, I could even toss such arguments aside and agree that he deserves a Norris (closest comparison would be Eriksson last year or Coffey in 1985 and 1986, but even those two led their teams in TOI by wide margins). But Subban was not such a player. He merely led defensemen in points. He did not lap the field.
You speak about ES points as if it's the only metric for evaluating ES play. PK Subban's ES play this year was outstanding. His PP efforts were off the charts, whether the game is played 75% at even strength or not is kind of irrelevant here if what you do in that 25% is substantially helping to win games. His ability to drive the play the other way is outstanding.

PK's GA/ON GA/OFF is GF/OFF GA/OFF is staggeringly good in his favor, the points are the result and represent very little in the entire process.

The time on ice arguments are foolish imo, these things were out of Subban's control. It's what you do with your minutes that matters. He held out, was eased into the lineup and was used ridiculously by Therrien early on. In fact, he was completely misused, not his fault, he was doing everything in his power to deserve those minutes.

Previous seasons he had shown his worth as an excellent PKer, one of the team leaders in PK TOI, perhaps even the leader in TOI, memory is failing me here and the best GA/60 on one of the best PK's in the league, not using him here is one of many reasons why our normally strong PK sank to the bottom. Awarding the award to someone who performed worse because he received more minutes from his coach is silly. Ice time is out of hte players control, Therrien was sending a message that he owned the team, the 2nd 1/2 of the season, Subban was facing tougher opposition with increased minutes/exposure and actually outperformed himself when he was receiving the sheltered, soft minutes. Context is very important here, the holdout had as much to do with the limited minutes early on, ignoring it is ridiculous.

I know PK does a lot of things that traditionalist wouldn't find aesthetically pleasing, but he's extremely effective at what he does. Your last paragraph is just as short sighted as it is wrong. Subban was extremely dominate 5vs5, his coach misued him early to send a essage that he was in charge after the holdout. As games got more important, PK's ice-time reflected that. The Habs had much better overall depth than the wild and didn't have to use one guy 30 minutes a night, not PK's fault at all.

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09-14-2013, 06:59 AM
  #75
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The point about the TOI is an interesting one, because how do you account for the fact that Subban being lower in TOI had nothing to do with his play and everything to do with Therrien's coaching?
I would look at the TOI/Norris controversy thusly:

a) Because of Subban's utilization in the shortened 2013 season, it's valid to question his selection as the Norris winner. I don't think there are any rationalizations which really apply. It's true that the Habs were winning a lot of games when he finally got signed. It's true that other defensemen were playing surprisingly well filling in for him (esp. Diaz). And it's true that therefore Therrien had no need to rock the boat, and consequently spent a month easing Subban back in. Subban was on the 3rd pair with Bouillon for a while at the start. Not because of his play. Just because of the play of the rest of the team. What wasn't broke didn't need fixing. Subsequently, Subban was returned to his normal #1 duties. But in a shortened season, that meant a good chunk of the season was already over. All truth. All valid explanations as to why his TOI and defensive stats were down relative to last season. But because that's the way it went down, I don't think he was a good choice as the Norris winner. Not his fault, not a reflection on his play in any way. Just the bare facts and associated stats of what transpired should have precluded him from winning the award. You shouldn't win it based on 25-30 games of Norrisousness.

b) I think if Subban had been signed already and in camp and had started right out of the gate as the #1 guy again for the Habs last season, he would have won the Norris very handily and there would have been no controversy about it whatsoever. He proved the season before that he's a legit #1 guy who can log the top minutes on the team against the top opposition. He's our best defensive defender and one of the better ones in the league in that area. He's a top-10 defenseman in the NHL and he'll be a perennial Norris candidate. I love his character and attitude. He's smart and his personality is a breath of fresh air amidst the robots. So it doesn't perturb me either that Subban won the Norris anyway, since I sort of feel that was his legit birthright, even if real circumstances conspired to try to rob him of it.

Per the OP, I don't have a historical comparison. That's part of what makes PK so special. I don't like the Chelios one much, though. Chelios was just such a hard-ass warrior and I don't think Subban will ever carry that trait to that extent (almost nobody does). Sans longevity (and alas championships probably) he'll probably compile approximately similar scoring stats and accolades to Chelios, though. If that's the basis of comparison.

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