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#10 Sharks @ NYR - I Ain't Afraid of No Ghosts -10/31/11 - 4:00PM - VERSUS, KFOX

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Old
11-01-2011, 06:26 PM
  #776
The Architect
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
You are correct on coaching duties according to reports.

My take is they are two passive on the points. They collapse the box too easily and expand out to late. The point of being aggressive on the points is not just to stop point shots but to pressure the first pass low, force it to be inaccurate. Most of the successful PKs have high pressure on the points whether the opposition has a cannon there or not.

For others,
Frequently players are actually coaching the strategies. I wouldn't be surprised if Zeus is actually the strategist after the failure of the Woodcroft/Yawney system. Zeus may be smart but IMO, he isn't the key. If I were to look for a fix, I might try and find out what Grier is doing right now and find out if he wanted to take on assistant work. When Grier came to SJ is when the Sharks PK climbed from middle of the road to top notch. The other part of that is that whoever does the PK has to understand that one size does not fit all in terms of strategy. Whoever does it has to be someone who is flexible and not just a "play our own game" coach and has to impart that philosophy to the players.
Surprisingly, if we wanted to look at teams to mimic who have had success, one need not look any further than the teams we've just played.

5/6 teams were all in the top half of the league in PK, with NJ, Nashville, NYR, and NYI coming in at 5,6,7 and 10 respectively.

Detroit was the only outlier.


Good Pk's these days seem to be able to collapse fast to clog the lanes when necessary, but they also seem to be able to expand and be able to pressure the puck carrier at equally fast paces.

We have the talent in Marleau, Mitchell, Zeus, Pavs, and Couture with either speed or smarts ( in terms of our forwards).


I'm just totally bummed at our PK. It truly is a frustrating feeling when you think you have the talent, but don't have the strategy to have success.

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Old
11-01-2011, 06:32 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Inub0i View Post
I'm content with the 2-2 box... if it works.
It's a very passive, small box though. SJeasy is spot on that they are pressuring the point way too late. If you look at teams like Chicago or New Jersey, they pressure the points immediately, which doesn't only stop the point shot, but also forces the player to pass the puck quickly, which opens up the chances of turnovers.
The players just seem too hesitant to pressure the points. Even when they do, the others seem to really want to maintain clogging up the slots that the system changes from the small box back to the ugly 1-2-1 PK.

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11-01-2011, 08:52 PM
  #778
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Can we insert Rob Blake's brain into Brent Burns' body? Burns looks and talks like a stoner and we know better than to trust a stoner on a pk that requires concentration.

Fun fact: Tim Lincecum would not have allowed a run in his career if he wasn't a stoner.

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11-01-2011, 08:54 PM
  #779
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Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
Can we insert Rob Blake's brain into Brent Burns' body? Burns looks and talks like a stoner and we know better than to trust a stoner on a pk that requires concentration.

Fun fact: Tim Lincecum would not have allowed a run in his career if he wasn't a stoner.
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11-01-2011, 08:54 PM
  #780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Fin Soup View Post
Can we insert Rob Blake's brain into Brent Burns' body? Burns looks and talks like a stoner and we know better than to trust a stoner on a pk that requires concentration.

Fun fact: Tim Lincecum would not have allowed a run in his career if he wasn't a stoner.
Or you could flip the causation/correlation reasoning and assume that because of the weed, Lincecum has performed even better than his peers

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11-01-2011, 09:09 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
1.) Notice the sarcasm in my statements?
2.) Do you know if TM was specifically the one who coached the PK - I thought that responsibility fell on someone else during his tenure in SJ. Most recently last year being Yawney ( I'm fairly certain, and others could probably comment better than I).

Regardless, the penalty kill last year and so far this year is TERRIBLE, and for someone who coached a top five penalty kill as you say, he needs to be doing a better job with his staff to prepare the Sharks. They look lost out there.
The Todd is the head coach and the boss, but if you would prefer I say coaching staff then fine... The fact that the Sharks were a top 5 pk with Blake and then dropped to 25th after he retired is a bit too coincidental, don't you think. The defense is weak. Watch Burns on the PK, he has been terrible especially during the last two games. The coaching staff is throwing him out there hoping he will figure it out. The team needs this to happen.


Last edited by WantonAbandon: 11-01-2011 at 09:17 PM.
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Old
11-01-2011, 09:12 PM
  #782
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
You are correct on coaching duties according to reports.

My take is they are too passive on the points. They collapse the box too easily and expand out too late. The point of being aggressive on the points is not just to stop point shots but to pressure the first pass low, force it to be inaccurate. Most of the successful PKs have high pressure on the points whether the opposition has a cannon there or not.

For others,
Frequently players are actually coaching the strategies. I wouldn't be surprised if Zeus is actually the strategist after the failure of the Woodcroft/Yawney system. Zeus may be smart but IMO, he isn't the key. If I were to look for a fix, I might try and find out what Grier is doing right now and find out if he wanted to take on assistant work. When Grier came to SJ is when the Sharks PK climbed from middle of the road to top notch. The other part of that is that whoever does the PK has to understand that one size does not fit all in terms of strategy. Whoever does it has to be someone who is flexible and not just a "play our own game" coach and has to impart that philosophy to the players.
They continued to be top notch without Grier. The cards in the coaches hand are the problem. Its the blue line....

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Old
11-02-2011, 04:39 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
They continued to be top notch without Grier. The cards in the coaches hand are the problem. Its the blue line....
But other teams are doing more with less, so I don't buy your argument.

Sharks may not have great PK Dmen, but they aren't terrible. We have the size/agility/strength in our Dcore to be able to ice a PK that is at the very least in the top HALF of the league.

The coaching staff has the cards, they just need to figure out how to use them.

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11-02-2011, 06:27 AM
  #784
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I've only been able to watch two games so far this season (feels bad man) but I'd like to ask people who've watched more if the problems with the PK could be related to Niemi. It's been mentioned that the PK took a nosedive in the last two years after Blake left, but so did Nabokov. I don't mean to say that Niemi is bad, or that he's the cause of the recently terrible PK because I honestly don't know how responsible he could be for it, but I thought it was a question worth considering. So far as I've read no one has brought this up as a possible reason here.

I looked up his stats on the PK but they're very limited and definitely don't tell the full story. With regards to penalty killing he had one great season with Chicago and one terrible season in San Jose. It's impossible to tell from the data how much the rest of killers and their strategy influenced his results. Last season I thought he let in a lot from the points, but I mostly attributed that to poor coaching. This season some PK'ers have changed and they haven't returned to the 1-1-2 (so far as I know) but it's still bad out there.

For those of you who've been watching how has Niemi looked on the PK? I know he isn't the only one on the ice and there will be tough goals you can't fault him for, but is he making the saves he needs to and occasionally coming up with timely big saves?

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11-02-2011, 09:02 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by oyster View Post
I've only been able to watch two games so far this season (feels bad man) but I'd like to ask people who've watched more if the problems with the PK could be related to Niemi. It's been mentioned that the PK took a nosedive in the last two years after Blake left, but so did Nabokov. I don't mean to say that Niemi is bad, or that he's the cause of the recently terrible PK because I honestly don't know how responsible he could be for it, but I thought it was a question worth considering. So far as I've read no one has brought this up as a possible reason here.

I looked up his stats on the PK but they're very limited and definitely don't tell the full story. With regards to penalty killing he had one great season with Chicago and one terrible season in San Jose. It's impossible to tell from the data how much the rest of killers and their strategy influenced his results. Last season I thought he let in a lot from the points, but I mostly attributed that to poor coaching. This season some PK'ers have changed and they haven't returned to the 1-1-2 (so far as I know) but it's still bad out there.

For those of you who've been watching how has Niemi looked on the PK? I know he isn't the only one on the ice and there will be tough goals you can't fault him for, but is he making the saves he needs to and occasionally coming up with timely big saves?
Niemi isn't the problem. He's been stopping everything he should. The goals that get scored are either heavily screened or across the slot and impossible to stop. The Shark's are allowing prime shots from the points and cross crease passes constantly, and this is killing them.

Was Nabby better on the PK? Yes, he is one of the best goalies I have ever seen on the PK, he would cover for some of our inadequacies for sure (in his prime anyway), but it's certainly not the problem.

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11-02-2011, 09:05 AM
  #786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oyster View Post
I've only been able to watch two games so far this season (feels bad man) but I'd like to ask people who've watched more if the problems with the PK could be related to Niemi. It's been mentioned that the PK took a nosedive in the last two years after Blake left, but so did Nabokov. I don't mean to say that Niemi is bad, or that he's the cause of the recently terrible PK because I honestly don't know how responsible he could be for it, but I thought it was a question worth considering. So far as I've read no one has brought this up as a possible reason here.

I looked up his stats on the PK but they're very limited and definitely don't tell the full story. With regards to penalty killing he had one great season with Chicago and one terrible season in San Jose. It's impossible to tell from the data how much the rest of killers and their strategy influenced his results. Last season I thought he let in a lot from the points, but I mostly attributed that to poor coaching. This season some PK'ers have changed and they haven't returned to the 1-1-2 (so far as I know) but it's still bad out there.

For those of you who've been watching how has Niemi looked on the PK? I know he isn't the only one on the ice and there will be tough goals you can't fault him for, but is he making the saves he needs to and occasionally coming up with timely big saves?
with niemi in net the pk has been 5 for 22, which is 77.28 %.

now greiss on the other had has allowed 5 goals on 16 tries.

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Old
11-02-2011, 09:44 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Niemi isn't the problem. He's been stopping everything he should. The goals that get scored are either heavily screened or across the slot and impossible to stop. The Shark's are allowing prime shots from the points and cross crease passes constantly, and this is killing them.

Was Nabby better on the PK? Yes, he is one of the best goalies I have ever seen on the PK, he would cover for some of our inadequacies for sure (in his prime anyway), but it's certainly not the problem.
The teams have been trying to go back door on the PK all season, not that everyone doesnt try to do the same to everyone else but it seems to me they are pressing for it harder on the Sharks.

The PK to me, still seems discombobulated. They still arent playing as a unit.

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Old
11-02-2011, 01:30 PM
  #788
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I think part of it was definitely Nabby. He was always the best PKer in the league, and IIRC there was a game during his last year here when the Sharks were on the PK and Randy or Drew brought up the stat that Nabby's save percentage was like 10 or 20 points higher short-handed. Guy was a warrior.

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Old
11-02-2011, 02:27 PM
  #789
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Defense and goaltending did a pretty poor job in this game. Offense was not good, but not horrible.

Niemi was directly responsible for the first goal of the game and the last.

On the first goal he did a terrible job at tracking the puck from behind the net to the point, and was literally inside the goal when the shot was taken. All the guy had to do was put it to the right 50% of the net and it goes in. I can do that on a good day.

Last goal he was nowhere near square to the puck, and was completely scrambling for a rebound that he should have easily squeezed. Was actually a pretty good defensive play by Andrew Murray, but an even better play by Callahan. That guy is an awesome player.

White got caught puck watching on a 2v2 instead of taking his man's body or stick. Should have been easily prevented if he plays fundamental defense there. Murray got caught doing the same thing on the powerplay with that pass going right between his legs. An active stick blocks that pass most of the time.

Really just an off night when you look at it all. These are the types of things that get ironed out as the year progresses and they continue to play more games, so I'm not too worried.


Last edited by Shawn Wilken: 11-02-2011 at 04:10 PM.
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Old
11-02-2011, 02:35 PM
  #790
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The last goal, he wasn't square to the puck because Dubinsky bumped him as the shot was just about to come and he didn't have time to reset and square up. It should have been waved off for goalie interference but what can you do? I'm not pinning Niemi for that one.

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Old
11-02-2011, 03:38 PM
  #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Niemi isn't the problem. He's been stopping everything he should. The goals that get scored are either heavily screened or across the slot and impossible to stop. The Shark's are allowing prime shots from the points and cross crease passes constantly, and this is killing them.

Was Nabby better on the PK? Yes, he is one of the best goalies I have ever seen on the PK, he would cover for some of our inadequacies for sure (in his prime anyway), but it's certainly not the problem.
Niemi is part of the problem on PK although IMO he is not entirely the precipitous drop. He might be a reason for going 5th to 10th. You got it right on Nabby. Some his five-hole and shortside issues were from reading the play and getting ready to go cross crease (cheating) where he wasn't particularly athletic. Niemi himself is not athletic and is relatively slow cross crease. He is big so that he protects more and he doesn't cheat. Niemi throws rebounds more than a lot of starters.

IMO, part of the problem may be in designing a PK that covers Niemi's rebound and puck playing issues which means keeping manpower low. The Hawks had a particularly fast set of PKer's in his year with their team. They could cover low but return quickly to pressure the points and their dmen were faster than the Sharks dmen. The two advantages that Greiss has over Niemi are his speed across and puckplaying. He may overcommit but he can match top guys for getting across the crease. It isn't close on playing the puck and skating between Niemi and Greiss. Huge edge to Greiss. Niemi's asset is size when he is in the butterfly and being technically great on covering low when set up. I give Niemi the edge in rebound control over Greiss.

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11-21-2011, 11:42 PM
  #792
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I hate to BUMP this thread again, but maybe he saw it


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11-21-2011, 11:43 PM
  #793
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Damn, Jason... could you be any skinnier?

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11-22-2011, 12:03 AM
  #794
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Jason's a good man for watching that film. It's awesome.

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11-22-2011, 12:14 AM
  #795
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I hate to BUMP this thread again, but maybe he saw it

Now we know why he sucks all of a sudden, he crossed the streams.

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