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Old
11-01-2011, 02:28 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Guys, stop trying to counter Jame and SBA with facts when it comes to Roy. You're only making things more difficult.
If it works, good!!

I just agree with what jame said about his decision making on the PP. I hope he proves me wrong. After seeing the guy be human on Twitter, I don't have a hate on for him anymore, I hope he does really well.

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11-01-2011, 02:35 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by sba View Post
If it works, good!!

I just agree with what jame said about his decision making on the PP. I hope he proves me wrong. After seeing the guy be human on Twitter, I don't have a hate on for him anymore, I hope he does really well.
Fair enough. I think Jame's somewhat justified concerns about Roy's shots getting blocked are more applicable to his play on the right half-wall. My recollection of last season was that he was doing a nice job getting the shots through from the point.

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11-01-2011, 02:39 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Guys, stop trying to counter Jame and SBA with facts when it comes to Roy. You're only making things more difficult.
I love how one side of an argument has opinions that you call facts...
the other side of the argument has opinions that you dismiss...

"Roy was very good on the PP before he got injured"
-FACT
"Roy slows down PP movement, and gets a lot of shots blocked" -OPINION

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Old
11-01-2011, 02:45 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I love how one side of an argument has opinions that you call facts...
the other side of the argument has opinions that you dismiss...

"Roy was very good on the PP before he got injured"
-FACT
"Roy slows down PP movement, and gets a lot of shots blocked" -OPINION
You said he didn't have an impact from the point. That's false. He played well on the point last year, and I recall most around here being quite pleased with his play back there. Though I'm not surprised you dismissed the idea of Roy at the point out of hand.

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Old
11-01-2011, 02:57 PM
  #105
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vs LA 11/19 - 1 PP A (Point shot by #9, deflected in by Vanek)
vs Tor 11/26 - 1 PP A (5 on 3, 5 forwards, Vanek scored with point shot)
vs CLB 12/4 - 1 PP A (5 on 3, 5 forwards, Vanek scored off Ennis rebound)
vs Pit 12/11 - 1 PPA (5 on 3, 5 forwards, Ennis scored of Ennis rebound)


of Roy's 11 PP Points in 35 games. (2G,9A)... 4 of them came on plays where he played the point. Of those 4.... 3 were 5 on 3's with 5 forwards.

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11-01-2011, 02:57 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You said he didn't have an impact from the point. That's false. He played well on the point last year, and I recall most around here being quite pleased with his play back there. Though I'm not surprised you dismissed the idea of Roy at the point out of hand.
my recollection is better then yours

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:06 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Red herring. Lindy doesn't like to tip his hand, even for a regular season game in November.
I agree and believe that's what he's doing, but it's amusing that he would hold onto this information so tightly. As if Laviolette will have to drastically refomulate his game plan if the Sabres dress Weber instead of Gagnani.

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:12 PM
  #108
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The day we signed Leino I envisioned him playing with Vanek and Pommers. I'm psyched to see how this works out.

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:26 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
vs LA 11/19 - 1 PP A (Point shot by #9, deflected in by Vanek)
vs Tor 11/26 - 1 PP A (5 on 3, 5 forwards, Vanek scored with point shot)
vs CLB 12/4 - 1 PP A (5 on 3, 5 forwards, Vanek scored off Ennis rebound)
vs Pit 12/11 - 1 PPA (5 on 3, 5 forwards, Ennis scored of Ennis rebound)


of Roy's 11 PP Points in 35 games. (2G,9A)... 4 of them came on plays where he played the point. Of those 4.... 3 were 5 on 3's with 5 forwards.
I didn't say anything about what his production was there. That also doesn't at all go to your assertion that he was slowing the PP or getting shots blocked. Also, he didn't spend all his time on the PP there last season. I'll be the first to admit that I get frustrated with Roy on the PP, mostly when he's on the halfwall. In fact, I wanted him starting the season on the second unit with increased ES and PK time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
I agree and believe that's what he's doing, but it's amusing that he would hold onto this information so tightly. As if Laviolette will have to drastically refomulate his game plan if the Sabres dress Weber instead of Gagnani.
Maybe he wants Lavi wasting time watching tape of our PP from last year's playoffs when Gragnani really hurt them there. :shrug:

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:29 PM
  #110
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DNFlyers Frank Seravalli
by TSNBobMcKenzie
Paul Holmgren said Danny Briere and Matt Read are a good bet to miss the next 2 games, though Briere is a possibility for Thursday.


Looks like Briere is out of tomorrows game... too bad...i still want someone to flatten him for his tap to the back of Millers head in last years playoffs.


As for Grags being off PowerPlay.... Yay!!!! ... As for Roy being on the Point ... =/ ... I'll reserve my judgement .... For a team that has been giving up a lot of shorthanded odd man rushes... it makes me nervous.

We'll see tho.

Hopefully Weber is able to get in...and not play like **** and make me look stupid ha

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:31 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I didn't say anything about what his production was there. That also doesn't at all go to your assertion that he was slowing the PP or getting shots blocked. Also, he didn't spend all his time on the PP there last season. I'll be the first to admit that I get frustrated with Roy on the PP, mostly when he's on the halfwall. In fact, I wanted him starting the season on the second unit with increased ES and PK time.



Maybe he wants Lavi wasting time watching tape of our PP from last year's playoffs when Gragnani really hurt them there. :shrug:
I'll just wait for you to bring those "facts" you were talking about...

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:32 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You said he didn't have an impact from the point. That's false. He played well on the point last year, and I recall most around here being quite pleased with his play back there. Though I'm not surprised you dismissed the idea of Roy at the point out of hand.
I quantified his impact... can you?

I didn't dismiss it out of hand. I actually recall the turnovers vividly.

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Old
11-01-2011, 03:46 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I quantified his impact... can you?

I didn't dismiss it out of hand. I actually recall the turnovers vividly.
You didn't quantify impact, you just pointed out where he earned points. There's more to playing the point than just scoring points (in fact, one is usually sacraficing points by moving back there, just ask Pominville in recent years). You recall turnovers. I recall him getting shots through and creating chances after weeks of looking for a point man opposite Myers. Given our respective histories, this is hardly surprising.

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Old
11-01-2011, 04:03 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You didn't quantify impact, you just pointed out where he earned points. There's more to playing the point than just scoring points (in fact, one is usually sacraficing points by moving back there, just ask Pominville in recent years). You recall turnovers. I recall him getting shots through and creating chances after weeks of looking for a point man opposite Myers. Given our respective histories, this is hardly surprising.
so we recall different things.

I actually brought SOMETHING quantifiable to the discussion...

Quote:
Guys, stop trying to counter Jame and SBA with facts when it comes to Roy.
Still waiting on facts...

Maybe something like the team PP % in 5-4 situations in which Roy played the point?

Or, PP Shots on goal in 5-4 situations in which Roy played the point?

Honestly, I think you guys remember a lot of 5-3 success in a short period of time.

Here's 5 Facts:
1. Roy holds the puck too much, and slows down movement on the PP (Whether he is on the half wall or the point).
2. Roy takes bad shots on the PP (Whether he is on the half wall or the point)
3. Roy attempts low % passing players (Whether he is on the half wall or the point)
4. Roy is prone to turnovers when rushing the puck through the neutral zone
5. Roy had a cheeseburger for lunch today

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Old
11-01-2011, 04:35 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
so we recall different things.

I actually brought SOMETHING quantifiable to the discussion...



Still waiting on facts...

Maybe something like the team PP % in 5-4 situations in which Roy played the point?

Or, PP Shots on goal in 5-4 situations in which Roy played the point?

Honestly, I think you guys remember a lot of 5-3 success in a short period of time.

Here's 5 Facts:
1. Roy holds the puck too much, and slows down movement on the PP (Whether he is on the half wall or the point).
2. Roy takes bad shots on the PP (Whether he is on the half wall or the point)
3. Roy attempts low % passing players (Whether he is on the half wall or the point)
4. Roy is prone to turnovers when rushing the puck through the neutral zone
5. Roy had a cheeseburger for lunch today
So how do you suggest remembering which specific games Roy played on the point - and further, how many shots were recorded by his PP line on the PP while he was playing the point?

Fact is, that many people (Chain and I among them) were pleased with his play on the point last season (and yes, that includes 5 on 4 advantages). And of your "fact" list - frankly they're all opinions except #5 when it comes to his point play. He was notably faster playing the puck and was not taking bad shots while on the point last year.

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Old
11-01-2011, 05:02 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
So how do you suggest remembering which specific games Roy played on the point - and further, how many shots were recorded by his PP line on the PP while he was playing the point?

Fact is, that many people (Chain and I among them) were pleased with his play on the point last season (and yes, that includes 5 on 4 advantages). And of your "fact" list - frankly they're all opinions except #5 when it comes to his point play. He was notably faster playing the puck and was not taking bad shots while on the point last year.
That's all good and dandy. You are welcome to that opinion, as I am to mine. I just find it rather minotaur-ish to have it insinuated that one set of opinion is factual. (as i did above, in a "meant to be sarcastic" way... see the cheeseburger)

referring to this comment:
Quote:
Guys, stop trying to counter Jame and SBA with facts when it comes to Roy.
We have different opinions... and very difficult to back up at this time... our memories will be refreshed this week. and we can re-address the topic with fresh data.

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Old
11-01-2011, 05:07 PM
  #117
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I don't mind seeing roy back at the point and I'm looking forward to seeing what he will do long term. If he doesn't work out cycle him in with pommer.

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Old
11-01-2011, 05:44 PM
  #118
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I remember Roy looking decent as a puck distributor on the power play, but the unit as a whole being ineffective while he was at the point.

IIRC, his issue was that he played catch too much, rather than trying to create an open lane with his passes.

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Old
11-01-2011, 07:14 PM
  #119
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Sorry if this is being talked about elsewhere, but how is Gragnani doing? Is he getting 1st PP time? Is Myers likely to take that spot from him? It sounded to me like he's been struggling.

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11-01-2011, 07:19 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by DG View Post
Sorry if this is being talked about elsewhere, but how is Gragnani doing? Is he getting 1st PP time? Is Myers likely to take that spot from him? It sounded to me like he's been struggling.
He sucks in on the power play. Myers should have been out there instead all year but I guess they would rather stunt his development because Gragnani's contract situation is more important.

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11-01-2011, 07:31 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
Sorry if this is being talked about elsewhere, but how is Gragnani doing? Is he getting 1st PP time? Is Myers likely to take that spot from him? It sounded to me like he's been struggling.
Gragnani is pretty meh in his own zone. Can be good positionally at times, mostly allergic to physical play. Has a tendency to pinch at the most mind-numbing times.

He was getting 1st unit PP time. But, his game was HIGHLY predictable: get puck, pass puck to Ehrhoff for one-timer. Was highly allergic to actually shooting the puck, even if he had a lane to do so.

Myers will be taking the 1st PP unit time now, with Roy on the other point. Ehrhoff will work with Leopold on the 2nd unit now.


And no, I don't think we'll ever see Myers and Ehrhoff play on the same PP unit -- they play the same side defensively and neither has played the other side in their careers.

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Old
11-01-2011, 07:57 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post

Here's 5 Facts:
1. Roy holds the puck too much, and slows down movement on the PP (Whether he is on the half wall or the point).
2. Roy takes bad shots on the PP (Whether he is on the half wall or the point)
3. Roy attempts low % passing players (Whether he is on the half wall or the point)
4. Roy is prone to turnovers when rushing the puck through the neutral zone
5. Roy had a cheeseburger for lunch today
1. Opinion
2. Opinion
3. Fact
4. Opinion
5. Stalker

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Old
11-01-2011, 08:31 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
Sorry if this is being talked about elsewhere, but how is Gragnani doing? Is he getting 1st PP time? Is Myers likely to take that spot from him? It sounded to me like he's been struggling.
He hasn't been terrible, but he's too passive right now. He has 5 SOG in 10 games, despite playing significant time in the offensive zone on the PP. He's far too deferential to the more established names (Ehrhoff, Vanek, Pommer, Roy) that he was playing with on that unit. With the amount of advanced scouting that goes on, teams have quickly picked up on his unwillingness to shoot, and are just playing the pass at this point. For a defenseman who averaged 12 goals/season in the A, and does have a decent shot when he uses it, he needs to start utilizing that skill. I suspect if he's removed the lineup he'll eventually be put back on the PP when he returns, hopefully on the second unit and shooting more.

P.S. Ignore the Gragnani hate. It's off the charts right now.

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Old
11-01-2011, 08:34 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
He hasn't been terrible, but he's too passive right now. He has 5 SOG in 10 games, despite playing significant time in the offensive zone on the PP. He's far too deferential to the more established names (Ehrhoff, Vanek, Pommer, Roy) that he was playing with on that unit. With the amount of advanced scouting that goes on, teams have quickly picked up on his unwillingness to shoot, and are just playing the pass at this point. For a defenseman who averaged 12 goals/season in the A, and does have a decent shot when he uses it, he needs to start utilizing that skill. I suspect if he's removed the lineup he'll eventually be put back on the PP when he returns, hopefully on the second unit and shooting more.

P.S. Ignore the Gragnani hate. It's off the charts right now.
The hate is well deserved, granted everyone is playing like **** on the PP, but Gragnani is supposed to play defense too, and has been awful at it. Pinches at the wrong time, making awful drop passes, terrible entry into the zone. What exactly is he supposed to do on this team? He definitely has a 'pass first' mentality, which teams are certainly picking up on.

If Leino can't get it going on Vanek and Pominville's line, I will begin to worry. He's been tried with practically every combination the team can offer. We're not going to split up Pominville and Vanek, GGK line will probably stay together. He's going to ***** and moan about playing on the fourth line, only real option I see is him playing on the top two lines.

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11-01-2011, 08:42 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
He sucks in on the power play. Myers should have been out there instead all year but I guess they would rather stunt his development because Gragnani's contract situation is more important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
He hasn't been terrible, but he's too passive right now. He has 5 SOG in 10 games, despite playing significant time in the offensive zone on the PP. He's far too deferential to the more established names (Ehrhoff, Vanek, Pommer, Roy) that he was playing with on that unit. With the amount of advanced scouting that goes on, teams have quickly picked up on his unwillingness to shoot, and are just playing the pass at this point. For a defenseman who averaged 12 goals/season in the A, and does have a decent shot when he uses it, he needs to start utilizing that skill. I suspect if he's removed the lineup he'll eventually be put back on the PP when he returns, hopefully on the second unit and shooting more.

P.S. Ignore the Gragnani hate. It's off the charts right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
The hate is well deserved, granted everyone is playing like **** on the PP, but Gragnani is supposed to play defense too, and has been awful at it. Pinches at the wrong time, making awful drop passes, terrible entry into the zone. What exactly is he supposed to do on this team? He definitely has a 'pass first' mentality, which teams are certainly picking up on.

If Leino can't get it going on Vanek and Pominville's line, I will begin to worry. He's been tried with practically every combination the team can offer. We're not going to split up Pominville and Vanek, GGK line will probably stay together. He's going to ***** and moan about playing on the fourth line, only real option I see is him playing on the top two lines.
Thanks everyone, much appreciated. He's still young, so lots of time to put it together still... not that I think he has Karlsson potential, but he started off very slowly and often looked lost and you know how he is now. I'm sure Gragnani will turn it around.

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