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10-31-2011, 03:19 PM
  #51
damacles1156
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You guys can cry and moan all you want.

The next coach will be John Stevens or Terry Murray light. You think Dean Lombardi is going to hire someone that wants an up tempo style of hockey?

Dean will throw that application right into the trash. The Coach, will Coach the style of Hockey Dean Lombardi wants.

And that syle is (D first, grind out games, Boring hockey). Why ? cause he feels that is how you win in this league.

Sadly it does Win games in this league. The Kings are a perfect example of it.

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10-31-2011, 03:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
You guys can cry and moan all you want.

The next coach will be John Stevens or Terry Murray light. You think Dean Lombardi is going to hire someone that wants an up tempo style of hockey?

Dean will throw that application right into the trash. The Coach, will Coach the style of Hockey Dean Lombardi wants.

And that syle is (D first, grind out games, Boring hockey). Why ? cause he feels that is how you win in this league.

Sadly it does Win games in this league. The Kings are a perfect example of it.
I agree that philosophically that is what Lombardi's about and you're right, he will likely have to go if the Kings are to start playing an up-tempo style. I do believe though that now, finally, the Kings have the talent to be more of an offense first team. I mean honestly, who has more offensive talent? Vancouver, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Detroit maybe. There aren't many teams that have more offensive firepower than the Kings, on paper at least.

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10-31-2011, 03:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Bandit View Post
I agree that philosophically that is what Lombardi's about and you're right, he will likely have to go if the Kings are to start playing an up-tempo style. I do believe though that now, finally, the Kings have the talent to be more of an offense first team. I mean honestly, who has more offensive talent? Vancouver, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Detroit maybe. There aren't many teams that have more offensive firepower than the Kings, on paper at least.
I find Toronto and Montreal offensive. Don't like them at all. Oh wait a minute you're talking about scoring not the people.

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10-31-2011, 04:07 PM
  #54
Ziggy Stardust
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Before hiring Terry Murray, it was known that Dean Lombardi made overtures to Darryl Sutter to see if he'd be interested in a return to coaching. Now that he is unemployed, I worry that he'd revisit Darryl Sutter should the Kings decide to let Terry Murray go.

I think Terry Murray would make a good assistant coach handling defensive responsibilities, however, I think a more adaptive head coach could help this team more. Murray still employs an antiquated style of approach to the game.

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10-31-2011, 04:14 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Before hiring Terry Murray, it was known that Dean Lombardi made overtures to Darryl Sutter to see if he'd be interested in a return to coaching. Now that he is unemployed, I worry that he'd revisit Darryl Sutter should the Kings decide to let Terry Murray go.

I think Terry Murray would make a good assistant coach handling defensive responsibilities, however, I think a more adaptive head coach could help this team more. Murray still employs an antiquated style of approach to the game.
Just curious,

What antiquated style of approach to the game would this be?

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10-31-2011, 04:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Just curious,

What antiquated style of approach to the game would this be?
Keeping the play in the offensive zone strictly along the boards. The Kings don't ever try to setup a shot from the most dangerous areas, which is the middle of the ice. They enforce a simple strategy on the PP, get the puck to the point, wait for traffic, then hope that a shot goes through.

The Kings don't tend to attack on the rush, they enter the zone, then pull back and try to create something. It's the same style of play they have been employing for the past two seasons.

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10-31-2011, 04:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by mitchrock View Post
I find Toronto and Montreal offensive. Don't like them at all. Oh wait a minute you're talking about scoring not the people.
Naughty monkey...

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10-31-2011, 04:22 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Keeping the play in the offensive zone strictly along the boards. The Kings don't ever try to setup a shot from the most dangerous areas, which is the middle of the ice. They enforce a simple strategy on the PP, get the puck to the point, wait for traffic, then hope that a shot goes through.

The Kings don't tend to attack on the rush, they enter the zone, then pull back and try to create something. It's the same style of play they have been employing for the past two seasons.
Not sure if you've noticed, but the trend defensively have been to collapse around the house, they are more than willing to give up a shot beyond the house, by the house, draw a line from the post, to the faceoff dot, straight across to the other dot, back to the other post, that's the house, they will put all 5 guys in that house, then expand it to get one guy on the puck, while keeping 4 in, on a set play etc,

Not sure how you go about attacking that to be honest other than what the Kings are doing, the board play, and trying to draw a player out of position, they have to win the board play though and they didn't last night.

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10-31-2011, 04:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How is that? You said that they would continue to "light everyone up" and they clearly haven't done that.

When does the 3+ years of Murray begin then? When can we expect the offense to be anything but below average? After the Kings get Parise and turn him into a 15 goal scorer? Penner was on a thiry goal pace before the Kings acquired him. He has 2 goals since then.
And we should believe that Terry Murray is the reason Penner has scored 2 goals in that time frame? Murray probably needs to do some tweaking to the offense to generate more scoring because it is a problem but you are making excuses for Penner. Kopitar has put up career numbers in spite of Terry Murray's system. The Kings have also had a problem scoring go back to the days of Andy Murray. Marc Crawford's team had a hard time scoring and I don't even think they ever even practiced on the defensive side of the rink during his tenure.

Just for debate, here are how the last 6 cup winners stack up with 5 on 5, total GF, PP and PK:

Boston (1st 5 on 5 / 5th overall GF / 20th PP / 16th PK)
Chicago (2nd 5 on 5 / 3rd overall GF / 16th PP / 4th PK)
Pittsburgh (4th 5 on 5 / 6th overall GF / 20th PP / 8th PK)
Detroit (8th 5 on 5 / 3rd overall GF / 3rd PP / 8th PK)
Anaheim (12th 5 on 5 / 9th overall GF / 3rd PP / 5th PK)
Carolina (4th 5 on 5 / 3rd overall GF / 17th PP / 19th PK)


So it appears 5 on 5 scroing is a critical issue. I think Murray is going to have to find a way to either get Stoll's line scoring or they are going to have to start giving Richards more favorable match ups. In hindsight, I think DL should have kept Handzus and dumped Stoll. I guess bringing in Loktionov to center the 3rd line (or second scoring line) might be the best option to try and get the team scoring.

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10-31-2011, 04:39 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Not sure if you've noticed, but the trend defensively have been to collapse around the house, they are more than willing to give up a shot beyond the house, by the house, draw a line from the post, to the faceoff dot, straight across to the other dot, back to the other post, that's the house, they will put all 5 guys in that house, then expand it to get one guy on the puck, while keeping 4 in, on a set play etc,

Not sure how you go about attacking that to be honest other than what the Kings are doing, the board play, and trying to draw a player out of position, they have to win the board play though and they didn't last night.
Another way to attack and get around four players standing back is to enter with speed. Skating teams do this. And board play is fine as long as your team is able to move its feet, control the puck and move the puck around. The Sedins are the best cycling duo in the NHL because they are constantly in motion.

Now what Terry Murray likes is to have the game slowed down. He wants the forward entering the zone to come to a stop and wait for an opening. If you wait for things to happen, you are eventually going to run out of time and options.

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10-31-2011, 04:43 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchrock View Post
I find Toronto and Montreal offensive. Don't like them at all. Oh wait a minute you're talking about scoring not the people.

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10-31-2011, 04:51 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Another way to attack and get around four players standing back is to enter with speed. Skating teams do this. And board play is fine as long as your team is able to move its feet, control the puck and move the puck around. The Sedins are the best cycling duo in the NHL because they are constantly in motion.

Now what Terry Murray likes is to have the game slowed down. He wants the forward entering the zone to come to a stop and wait for an opening. If you wait for things to happen, you are eventually going to run out of time and options.
Entering the zone with speed is not going to help attack the house when A. they have stacked the blueline with 4, and B. you are forced to the outside.

I have yet to see a forward come into the zone and stop and wait, they generally dump into the corner and go to 2-1-2

Thanks

Sam

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10-31-2011, 04:53 PM
  #63
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There are plenty of coach's in the AHL that can get the job done. Just have to give someone a chance.
The Kings are supposed to be SC contenders and you are suggesting us to test some coaches with (almost) no NHL experience? At this stage of team rebuild? Honestly, what do you think is the probability that this experiment turns into one of the top 10 coaches in the league in 2012/13 season?

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10-31-2011, 04:53 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Now what Terry Murray likes is to have the game slowed down. He wants the forward entering the zone to come to a stop and wait for an opening. If you wait for things to happen, you are eventually going to run out of time and options.
It's not just entering the zone. The Kings slow the game down even before leaving their zone. This is why teams playing the Kings have time to put 4 guys back along the blue. The Kings are very slow to start the attack, not just at the attacking blue line.

Watch how many times the Kings pass the puck back instead of rushing up the ice and it's not just on line changes. A team with Doughty, Johnson and Martinez should be able to create counter attacks quicker and force the other team to defend the rush, even if you chip and chase at the blue line, you will have built up more speed in the neutral zone to get to the chipped puck. The Kings usually end up at the attacking blue line with 2 players standing still waiting for the dump in. The Kings defense also tend to back out of the offensive zone earlier than most teams, even when a forward is already skating back to cover if they pinch.

Go Kings!

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10-31-2011, 04:57 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
The Kings are supposed to be SC contenders and you are suggesting us to test some coaches with (almost) no NHL experience? At this stage of team rebuild? Honestly, what do you think is the probability that this experiment turns into one of the top 10 coaches in the league in 2012/13 season?
Yeah, that approach sure ****ed up the Penguins.

Dallas looks to be heading in the right direction and they just lost their best player to FA.

Washington is further along with their re-build too.

Where do you think the forward thinking coaches come from? Why would you want another out dated retread? I don't think the coach will be hired off the street with zero hockey knowledge. You don't think teams scout coaches?

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10-31-2011, 04:57 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Another way to attack and get around four players standing back is to enter with speed. Skating teams do this. And board play is fine as long as your team is able to move its feet, control the puck and move the puck around. The Sedins are the best cycling duo in the NHL because they are constantly in motion.

Now what Terry Murray likes is to have the game slowed down. He wants the forward entering the zone to come to a stop and wait for an opening. If you wait for things to happen, you are eventually going to run out of time and options.
You're right. This was also brought up in the off-season and during training camp as a way to fix the 5 on 5 scoring issues. But it would seem that a lot of the players on the team are far too cautious and tend to fall back way to quickly into the enter the zone and stop mindset. It seems like for many of them it is almost instinctive after having been told for 2 years to do this. A pretty good chunk of the Kings goals this year have come on "fast break" odd man rushes or a couple players entering the zone with speed. The problem to me starts when the puck carrier enters the zone and attempts to wait for the other forwards because he is out numbered and fails to get the puck deep and causes a turnover just past the blueline. That goes back to the ingraining of Murray's original system into the players and that's one thing I'm hoping changes in the next ~20 games as the players realize they have more freedom now.

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10-31-2011, 05:04 PM
  #67
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Except half of the top 6 (Penner, Gagne and Richards) are all new to the system and shouldn't have the "baggage" that Brown and Kopitar have. Williams has seemd to play a little different than the others. I don't know if he has more freedom or not with Murray.

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10-31-2011, 05:27 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Yeah, that approach sure ****ed up the Penguins.
That was a completely different case. They HAD to do something so why not give 4 month "promotion" to your affiliate team coach? Kings are not in such situation, they are not doing bad at all.

Quote:
Dallas looks to be heading in the right direction and they just lost their best player to FA.
Again, apples and oranges. Dallas HAD to do something, they had missed playoffs for 3 consecutive seasons. Kings were in similar situation with Crawford with the difference being, that DL (IMO correctly) thought that young rebuilding team with no defensive coaching would benefit from an experienced coach with TM's coaching characteristics.

Quote:
Washington is further along with their re-build too.
Wait, what are you trying to prove with this one? They hired their current coach after failing to reach the PO for 3 consecutive seasons.

I hope you are not trying to prove that good coaches can come straight from AHL, because we are in perfect agreement on that one. Your examples are all proving my point though. Those coaches are hired when teams don't have much to lose anyway. Kings could have made the same move when they fired Crawford, but it is too late now in my opinion. Bottom line is that TM, whether we like him or not, has earned the right to be in charge of SC contender team that he helped to develop. Instead of being replaced just because someone wants more goals. Agreed?

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10-31-2011, 05:54 PM
  #69
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This postseason is Murray's real test. If the Kings lose in the first round, I think he is gone.
And he won't be the only one.

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10-31-2011, 06:00 PM
  #70
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Yeah, that approach sure ****ed up the Penguins.

Dallas looks to be heading in the right direction and they just lost their best player to FA.

Washington is further along with their re-build too.

Where do you think the forward thinking coaches come from? Why would you want another out dated retread? I don't think the coach will be hired off the street with zero hockey knowledge. You don't think teams scout coaches?
If you are going to cherry pick certain AHL promotions that worked out. You need to also include the One's that failed miserable.

The Kings AHL Coach plays the Same system the Big Club does as well.

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10-31-2011, 06:16 PM
  #71
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I just don't think he knows how to fix it other than his "shot mentality". Kings are 1-3-1 when out shooting their opponent and 5-0-1 when being outshot. Shot mentality doesn't explain that.
That kind of statistics is nothing special. The reason is that shooting <--> winning is a two way correlation. Because of that it is possible that shooting improves winning chances but at the same time winning produces less shots.

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10-31-2011, 06:31 PM
  #72
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And he won't be the only one.
Meaning? If you are thinking Lombardi, wanna bet?

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10-31-2011, 06:41 PM
  #73
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Meaning? If you are thinking Lombardi, wanna bet?
I'll bet we don't even cross that bridge. I think if the kIngs go into the playoffs with Richards, Kopitar, Doughty and Johnson healthy, they'll win a series.

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10-31-2011, 06:43 PM
  #74
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Lombardi won't be gone, the main reason being that the Kings WILL win a playoff series. Whether he should be if they don't is a different matter entirely. Whether he would be replaced by a more effective GM is another matter entirely as well.

It surprises me that he's largely received a pass for throwing a first round pick down the toilet.

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10-31-2011, 06:49 PM
  #75
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Lombardi won't be gone, the main reason being that the Kings WILL win a playoff series. Whether he should be if they don't is a different matter entirely. Whether he would be replaced by a more effective GM is another matter entirely as well.

It surprises me that he's largely received a pass for throwing a first round pick down the toilet.
There isn't anything to like about that trade other than it made a statement to the young players saying the management thinks they are ready to take the next step and is willing to trade future assets to improve the team now.

Penner has been a bust thus far.

As far as effectiveness, I don't think you can gauge it properly without considering the organization that has been built from the ground up including scouting and player development. It is a drastic improvement over what was here before.

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