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Old
11-01-2011, 08:07 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Islander102 View Post
I have nothing against trading Bailey to fill a team need, so long as that team need isnt an impending UFA. However, there is no way anyone can tell me that this team needs Dustin Penner. Swapping Bailey (plus a package of picks/prospects) for Penner leaves this roster with the exact same strengths and weaknesses as it has right now, only with less trade assets, less potential, and more dead weight.

Bailey goes in a package for a top 4 D, you dont hear a peep from me.
exactly what i was going to say. People have put up a straw man, claiming ppl refuse to trade bailey. Wrong. I refuse to trade him for Dustin Penner....a lazy player who will be a UFA at years end.

As for bailey's play...lets be real, he's getting third line minutes, we're 5 games into the season....he's 22.....has he really sucked that much?....how much is he really hurting this team? On the list of ppl not achieving...he's not exactly first on my list.

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11-02-2011, 01:54 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TeamKidd View Post
As for bailey's play...lets be real, he's getting third line minutes, we're 5 games into the season....he's 22.....has he really sucked that much?....how much is he really hurting this team? On the list of ppl not achieving...he's not exactly first on my list.
We're 9 games into the season, and he's had zero points on a team that's struggling to find secondary scoring.

How is it possible to achieve less than that? And how is his literally total lack of production not hurting the team?

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11-02-2011, 03:05 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TeamKidd View Post
exactly what i was going to say. People have put up a straw man, claiming ppl refuse to trade bailey. Wrong. I refuse to trade him for Dustin Penner....a lazy player who will be a UFA at years end.

As for bailey's play...lets be real, he's getting third line minutes, we're 5 games into the season....he's 22.....has he really sucked that much?....how much is he really hurting this team? On the list of ppl not achieving...he's not exactly first on my list.
At this point, I'd move Bailey for anything that is better than Bailey, a Zamboni driver included. Not only has his play been awful, but he's regressed ability wise to somewhere around year 1. Now granted, had he been developed the right way, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We would have passed on Strome in the draft, something that was done to obviously admit the fact Bailey's not long for this team. We would almost be talking about a legit second line center playing behind Tavares, a good center on a #2 PP unit.

Almost counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

As for this proposal being a "Milbury move", having lived a good part by the Sword of Stupidity this is far from that kind of a deal. We never said Bertuzzi is washed up, we never said Chara wasn't top 4 material, and we definitely never said Luongo was never going to be a starting goaltender. We say the opposite with Bailey. Any other team would have demoted or traded him by now, given the fact his stats line for the last season and change looks like a blood pressure readout on a corpse.

He's done like Thanksgiving Turkey. Get rid of him before his play costs the team games down the line. I'd do Penner for Bailey and a 3rd and never look back, even if he does walk at the end of the season. The next stage of the rebuild is taking the kids and trading them for established players. It's about bloody time we started doing that.

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11-02-2011, 03:10 PM
  #79
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If there is talk of a trade it better be for a Dman and not a forward, that is the more pressing need. It would be a waste to use assets for Penner instead of someone who can play the blue line.

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11-02-2011, 03:38 PM
  #80
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If there is talk of a trade it better be for a Dman and not a forward, that is the more pressing need. It would be a waste to use assets for Penner instead of someone who can play the blue line.
agreed. Trading for Penner would be like trading for Smyth all over again.

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11-02-2011, 03:48 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TeamKidd View Post
exactly what i was going to say. People have put up a straw man, claiming ppl refuse to trade bailey. Wrong. I refuse to trade him for Dustin Penner....a lazy player who will be a UFA at years end.

As for bailey's play...lets be real, he's getting third line minutes, we're 5 games into the season....he's 22.....has he really sucked that much?....how much is he really hurting this team? On the list of ppl not achieving...he's not exactly first on my list.
Ok, let's be real. He lacks self motivation on the ice, has no hunger for the puck, and his mental mistakes are increasing. Loss of confidence is part of it, but so what? That isn't an excuse, that is a weakness. I more than understand that some players a take a while, that he was rushed and got damaged in the process, etc. Did it ever occur to you that some players aren't good? Some go the NHL to wither and die? There are oodles of players who made it up, only to fade despite having decent opening skill sets. The more he retreats into invisible, non-aggressive play, the more likely it becomes that he is going to bust. It is early enough that he can recover, so I wouldn't give up on him, but I see enough of a problem with his overall game right now to find him a non-issue in terms of the core. If some other GM wanted this kid, and moving him meant getting someone to help improve the play/development of our franchise player who isn't having any growth concerns, I move him tomorrow for that guy. That the guy is Penner is another question entirely, but at this point, with the regression, if I can improve John's development by throwing Bailey under the bus I don't even for a second hesitate. Under the wheels you go Josh.

There's no crying in hockey, bud. There are winners and losers, and if Josh can't find his game or at last his aggressive desire to own the puck and the ice when he is out there, then move him to help find someone who will.

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11-02-2011, 04:00 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
Ok, let's be real. He lacks self motivation on the ice, has no hunger for the puck, and his mental mistakes are increasing. Loss of confidence is part of it, but so what? That isn't an excuse, that is a weakness. I more than understand that some players a take a while, that he was rushed and got damaged in the process, etc. Did it ever occur to you that some players aren't good? Some go the NHL to wither and die? There are oodles of players who made it up, only to fade despite having decent opening skill sets. The more he retreats into invisible, non-aggressive play, the more likely it becomes that he is going to bust. It is early enough that he can recover, so I wouldn't give up on him, but I see enough of a problem with his overall game right now to find him a non-issue in terms of the core. If some other GM wanted this kid, and moving him meant getting someone to help improve the play/development of our franchise player who isn't having any growth concerns, I move him tomorrow for that guy. That the guy is Penner is another question entirely, but at this point, with the regression, if I can improve John's development by throwing Bailey under the bus I don't even for a second hesitate. Under the wheels you go Josh.

There's no crying in hockey, bud. There are winners and losers, and if Josh can't find his game or at last his aggressive desire to own the puck and the ice when he is out there, then move him to help find someone who will.
Missing the point. Penner isnt the guy you move him for, just for the sake of moving him. You want to move Bailey, I am on board, but moving him for Penner does nothing except bring in a different player for the sake of bringing in a different player. This team needs a defenseman in the worst way. Any trade made should be focused on acquiring one.

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11-02-2011, 04:23 PM
  #83
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Just posted: Puck Daddy on Dustin Penner http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...rn=nhl-wp16486

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11-02-2011, 04:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DisplacedIslander View Post
As for this proposal being a "Milbury move", having lived a good part by the Sword of Stupidity this is far from that kind of a deal. We never said Bertuzzi is washed up, we never said Chara wasn't top 4 material, and we definitely never said Luongo was never going to be a starting goaltender. We say the opposite with Bailey. Any other team would have demoted or traded him by now, given the fact his stats line for the last season and change looks like a blood pressure readout on a corpse.
Actually, a lot of fans thought Bertuzzi was a bust and that Charade would never be more than a bottom pairing dman. And if you still thought they'd be the players they eventually became when they wrre traded then you were uust being more patient then, because both of them were older than Bailey and neither had proven any more than he has at the NHL level.

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11-02-2011, 07:36 PM
  #85
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Penner is not a significant upgrade over Moulson and won't put this team over the top, plus with his "work ethic" well want to have him shipped out in a week...Pass, next!?


Last edited by seafoam: 11-02-2011 at 07:37 PM. Reason: Messed smiley up
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11-02-2011, 08:56 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Actually, a lot of fans thought Bertuzzi was a bust and that Charade would never be more than a bottom pairing dman. And if you still thought they'd be the players they eventually became when they wrre traded then you were uust being more patient then, because both of them were older than Bailey and neither had proven any more than he has at the NHL level.
As I mentioned earlier, there was an expectation that a power forward like Bertuzzi would take longer to develop.

And in any case, Bertuzzi had more goals in his rookie season than Bailey has in any season of his career.

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11-02-2011, 09:55 PM
  #87
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Missing the point. Penner isnt the guy you move him for, just for the sake of moving him. You want to move Bailey, I am on board, but moving him for Penner does nothing except bring in a different player for the sake of bringing in a different player. This team needs a defenseman in the worst way. Any trade made should be focused on acquiring one.
I agree, that's why I said, "...That the guy is Penner is another question entirely..." Do we want to be the team that brings his A game back? Watching us lose Bailey, and the struggles Okposo and Comeau have, leaves me with reservations the club could do it. And for only one year... his contract runs out at season's end.

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11-02-2011, 10:00 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
Ok, let's be real. He lacks self motivation on the ice, has no hunger for the puck, and his mental mistakes are increasing. Loss of confidence is part of it, but so what? That isn't an excuse, that is a weakness. I more than understand that some players a take a while, that he was rushed and got damaged in the process, etc. Did it ever occur to you that some players aren't good? Some go the NHL to wither and die? There are oodles of players who made it up, only to fade despite having decent opening skill sets. The more he retreats into invisible, non-aggressive play, the more likely it becomes that he is going to bust. It is early enough that he can recover, so I wouldn't give up on him, but I see enough of a problem with his overall game right now to find him a non-issue in terms of the core. If some other GM wanted this kid, and moving him meant getting someone to help improve the play/development of our franchise player who isn't having any growth concerns, I move him tomorrow for that guy. That the guy is Penner is another question entirely, but at this point, with the regression, if I can improve John's development by throwing Bailey under the bus I don't even for a second hesitate. Under the wheels you go Josh.

There's no crying in hockey, bud. There are winners and losers, and if Josh can't find his game or at last his aggressive desire to own the puck and the ice when he is out there, then move him to help find someone who will.
just answer me one question. How do you feel about Michael Grabner and Anders Lee?

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11-02-2011, 10:26 PM
  #89
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Snow is the gm have you guys forgot this. This guy sits on is hands all summer. And now you think he will pick up the phone really this would put us over the floor and Wang does not want to be over. Every year we are right at the floor so why would this year be any diffrent. Penner would be nice but just forgot he will never happen.
He picked up the phone and got Wisniewski for you guys last year didn't he?

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11-02-2011, 10:26 PM
  #90
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just answer me one question. How do you feel about Michael Grabner and Anders Lee?
Both no doubt benefited (Grabner), and benefiting (Lee), from more development against non-NHL opponents. It would be nice if Dr. Who showed up with the Tardis to take us back to develop him properly, but oh well. I am not seeing someone doing well developing in the NHL though. Are you? I see a guy drowning and getting worse. We can't send him down because he would get claimed off waivers, but you can't continue to pollute the top 9 with him considering the club's struggles, and you can't afford to stick him on the fourth unit because he'd be the worst energy player you ever saw - he is a creme puff, you have to admit it - and he won't get the minutes or the complimentary players he needs to develop anyway.

It is quite the catch 22. If we trade him either we get lucky with a Campoli for a 1st kind of steal, or more likely he is an attractive necessary companion player in a multi-player swap. The third option is we get a third or less for him - which is about what I would pay for a 4 million dollar, potential one year rental, big body question mark in Penner, if I thought Penner would flourish for some reason known only to the Isles.

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11-02-2011, 11:33 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by A Pointed Stick View Post
Both no doubt benefited (Grabner), and benefiting (Lee), from more development against non-NHL opponents. It would be nice if Dr. Who showed up with the Tardis to take us back to develop him properly, but oh well. I am not seeing someone doing well developing in the NHL though. Are you? I see a guy drowning and getting worse. We can't send him down because he would get claimed off waivers, but you can't continue to pollute the top 9 with him considering the club's struggles, and you can't afford to stick him on the fourth unit because he'd be the worst energy player you ever saw - he is a creme puff, you have to admit it - and he won't get the minutes or the complimentary players he needs to develop anyway.

It is quite the catch 22. If we trade him either we get lucky with a Campoli for a 1st kind of steal, or more likely he is an attractive necessary companion player in a multi-player swap. The third option is we get a third or less for him - which is about what I would pay for a 4 million dollar, potential one year rental, big body question mark in Penner, if I thought Penner would flourish for some reason known only to the Isles.

Gotta +1 this.

It isn't that I simply want to jettison Bailey; more that I feel that THIS is his year to sink or swim, and the longer he struggles, the lower his value goes. After enough time if he continues as he does and never rediscovers the spark from early last season, he'll be worth a little more than Jon Sim, until he finds his footing under a new coach in a new city.

Something needs to come along an upset whatever combo of comfort/lack thereof he isn't getting over so much yet. I think the points will come, but likely not to the high level as he initially projected - that of a 2nd line center. Due to how he's been mishandled, it could take any amount of time before he finds his way, and while he isn't, he's essentially a very unproductive 3rd line center with some poor decision making issues from time to time. If another GM really believe he's a salvageable project like a Grabner, Montoya or Moulson, Snow seems to be the sort of GM to squeeze max value out of it, as he did three kids who never did a thing with the Oilers for Smyth before and more recently, Wisniewski (twice, even!) Bailey would be a reasonable project for a team like Nashville or LA to take on as a part of a larger deal; why not up the ante, commit to a specific approach and vacate 2 forwards & Nabokov to do something like this:

Out goes Bailey, Okposo and 2 1sts (for the hell of it, just spitballing)
in comes Haley, Niederreiter and either Penner & Greene or Martinez (AGAIN, all spec) or Suter plus. I'm not 'officially' saying I'd make that trade.....I'd think about it for a LONG minute.

Again, please DO NOT read this as me saying "hey, let's trade Okposo!!" I'm NOT.....but I am acknowledging that the environment on the Island is different enough so that players like Niederreiter, Haley and the like may actually NOT have to overcome such questionable development like....guess who? Okposo & Bailey. I don't say it would be better, but there'd be a difference....the team would be more aggressive immediately, and likely get pushed around a little less since the roster would have two more players who stick up for themselves & teammates more than Bailey & Okposo do. Would that be better? That's a matter of opinion.

Basically, it could easily take a package of players we'd rather not see flourish elsewhere to acquire the skilled players we NEED while promoting players with equal or more talent/bite/upside (specifically in the case of Niederreiter vs. Okposo.) I don't want to get rid of Okposo, BUT if he is parrt of a package that makes sense and suits a need, at least Niederreiter would be joining a far more complete team than Okposo did....when he left college to go pro, swiftly getting a pro contract from the Islanders. I don't say this to be a jerk; just to compare how NN's year in the OHL most likely gives him better developmental experience than KO.

Just playing devil's advocate. At the end of the the day, as long as the Islanders' roster still keeps 91, 35, 2, 3, 47, 27, 40, 51, and yes, believe it - 15 can stay there for now - anything else is up for grabs.....except Grabs.


Last edited by 88th Precinct: 11-02-2011 at 11:41 PM.
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11-02-2011, 11:42 PM
  #92
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It's almost comical the way people are completely giving up on Bailey. Other players from that draft class are also "regressing" and yet most people would be thrilled to get them. Zach Bogosian last year regressed to minus-27 and contributed to keeping the Flames out of the playoffs and is already -4 this year. Luke Schenn is getting less ice time every night for Toronto and I'm not sure if Filatov is even in the NHL.
You don't trade top ten draft picks at the age of 21 for a rental player like Penner unless you feel as if the team is one player away from the Stanley Cup, not one player away from making the playoffs.
Different sport, but same concept- Mel Kiper said the most important part of a draft is getting value. If Garth doesn't think Cappy get help develop Josh, then trade him for Bogosian, trade him for Schenn or pakage him for either Evander Kane or part of a bigger package for Ryan Suter. Don't waste him on Dustin Penner.

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11-02-2011, 11:57 PM
  #93
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Warning Islander fans you do not want Penner laziest player in the League.

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11-03-2011, 01:53 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by original islander View Post
It's almost comical the way people are completely giving up on Bailey. Other players from that draft class are also "regressing" and yet most people would be thrilled to get them. Zach Bogosian last year regressed to minus-27 and contributed to keeping the Flames out of the playoffs and is already -4 this year. Luke Schenn is getting less ice time every night for Toronto and I'm not sure if Filatov is even in the NHL.
You don't trade top ten draft picks at the age of 21 for a rental player like Penner unless you feel as if the team is one player away from the Stanley Cup, not one player away from making the playoffs.
Different sport, but same concept- Mel Kiper said the most important part of a draft is getting value. If Garth doesn't think Cappy get help develop Josh, then trade him for Bogosian, trade him for Schenn or pakage him for either Evander Kane or part of a bigger package for Ryan Suter. Don't waste him on Dustin Penner.
Oh, I don't disagree - if there were a trade with LA involving Penner, he wouldn't be the centerpiece, Matt Greene would be - a big, right handed former captain of his college team who doesn't back out of a hit. I'd consider Penner being in such a deal to be taking unwanted salary back so LA could use the cap space to beef the roster up for a cup run, just as the Isles could use wiggle room above the cap floor for making other moves themselves. I know Lombardi wouldn't be looking to move Greene without something nice coming back, which is why the deal isn't likely.....regardless, the hypothetical worst case scenario in a deal with LA is that Penner underachieves and gets released to free agency, while the Isles fill that top-4 defenseman void......well ahead of the schedule that deHaan, Donovan and Mayfield are on, ensuring they don't get rushed/spoiled/mishandled like Bailey and arguably Okposo.

Again - I'm not saying "TRADE THEM ALL!!!"....I'm saying that 'giving up on Bailey' and holding the opinion that Bailey and/or Okposo could find greener pastures with a new organization are two different things. If there's a team more fitting to trade with (cough....cough....hey there, Nashville!) I'm all for it.....but the longer one holds on to players with decreasing value, the less they can get back.

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11-03-2011, 12:29 PM
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Kevin Lowe thought Penner was something. That didn't work out. (Shocking based on Lowe's tenure in EDM.)

LAK, as a playoff contender, acquired Penner to HELP them go deep into the playoffs. How did that work out?

LAK, as a playoff contender, with Penner in a contract year, LAK wants to dump this player. If a playoff contender wants to dump an overpaid, underperforming UFA-to be while trying to take the next step, people want this player????

Separately, Lombardi is following the same steps he took in SJ - once a playoff contender, start using #1 picks and assets to try to take the next step. It did not work for him in SJ.

CLB thought getting Howson as Lowe's up and comer was laughable at the time and it's so laughable now. Too bad, CLB, much like ATL has been mired in atrocious mismanagement, terrible player acquisition.

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11-03-2011, 04:34 PM
  #96
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Kevin Lowe thought Penner was something. That didn't work out. (Shocking based on Lowe's tenure in EDM.)

LAK, as a playoff contender, acquired Penner to HELP them go deep into the playoffs. How did that work out?

LAK, as a playoff contender, with Penner in a contract year, LAK wants to dump this player. If a playoff contender wants to dump an overpaid, underperforming UFA-to be while trying to take the next step, people want this player????

Separately, Lombardi is following the same steps he took in SJ - once a playoff contender, start using #1 picks and assets to try to take the next step. It did not work for him in SJ.

CLB thought getting Howson as Lowe's up and comer was laughable at the time and it's so laughable now. Too bad, CLB, much like ATL has been mired in atrocious mismanagement, terrible player acquisition.
All great points - I can't disagree; though as I said above, I wouldn't take Penner because I want Penner, I'd take Penner as 'taking one for the team' to get a player in a position we need in Matt Greene. If getting a right-handed top-4 defenseman meant having to take Penner to add cap space going to a team looking to load up on mojo for the playoffs, I might do it - depending on the package coming back.

I actually think that with the combo of potential & recent ineffectiveness/parity on the roster, this is a ripe year for a 2-for-1 swap. Certain positions could be filled by other players and the potential leaving could bring back two needed things: a top-4 D and a trade where Snow actually does well getting a quality player than a quality pick.

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11-03-2011, 04:55 PM
  #97
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At this point in the game I am about change, not on the omg we suck band wagon but I feel this team needs to mix it up a little bit, which is why I would do this

Trade Comeau for Penner and a 3rd if he dosnt resign
and then make a trade with Clagary
Mottau and a 2nd for Babchuck

We get a player albeit for one year but forward lines get bigger

Penner-Bailey-Nino

and put Babchuck with Eaton

Upgrades all around

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11-04-2011, 04:36 PM
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As someone who lived through the Oiler/Isles rivalry in the early 80s, you do not need or want Dustin Penner.

I think last night they said since the trade at last year's deadline he has 3 points?

He plays like he is 5' 9, 180...not the physical beast you see. He doesn't use his body, doesn't score with enough frequency, and he is seemingly all about cashing the big check.

Since he is UFA next offseason, there is no need to part with an asset to get a soft big man..who doesn't score....you are better off acquiring someone hungry....and the only hunger DP has is at the buffet table...(this offseason notwithstanding)

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11-05-2011, 04:02 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by camaro27 View Post
Snow is the gm have you guys forgot this. This guy sits on is hands all summer. And now you think he will pick up the phone really this would put us over the floor and Wang does not want to be over. Every year we are right at the floor so why would this year be any diffrent. Penner would be nice but just forgot he will never happen.
Umm, how can you say Wang wants to stay under the floor when they threw all that money at Erhoff. Sometimes the rationale on this board is scary unintelligent.

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11-05-2011, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by original islander View Post
It's almost comical the way people are completely giving up on Bailey. Other players from that draft class are also "regressing" and yet most people would be thrilled to get them. Zach Bogosian last year regressed to minus-27 and contributed to keeping the Flames out of the playoffs and is already -4 this year. Luke Schenn is getting less ice time every night for Toronto and I'm not sure if Filatov is even in the NHL.
You don't trade top ten draft picks at the age of 21 for a rental player like Penner unless you feel as if the team is one player away from the Stanley Cup, not one player away from making the playoffs.
Different sport, but same concept- Mel Kiper said the most important part of a draft is getting value. If Garth doesn't think Cappy get help develop Josh, then trade him for Bogosian, trade him for Schenn or pakage him for either Evander Kane or part of a bigger package for Ryan Suter. Don't waste him on Dustin Penner.
I agree with some of this. All Bailey is worth is a struggling person in his same draft class. Just because he's as good as any of the draft picks that year doesn't mean he is good. I have given up on him adn would swap him for another struggling pick in a heartbeat. You never know what a change in scenery will do (Bertuzzi). Get rid of him while we still can be for he becomes a future waiver pick up. So like you said, yeah let's swap him for one of those other guys. I'd take Schenn. I've watched a lot of Maple Leaf games this year because I have 4 guys on the team on my fantasy league and Schenn is better than Mottau/Staois/Eaton.

10 more games of this and it's shakeup time.

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