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Gradual Decline in Luongo's Game?

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Old
10-31-2011, 10:32 PM
  #51
GuineaPig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
He wasn't even the best player at his position in 2007.

Roberto Luongo has NEVER been the best goalie in the NHL.
2003-04?

Between him and Brodeur, he should've had the 2007 Vezina, and definitely the 2004 Vezina (and Hart).

All in all, Luongo probably has the best claim for best goalie in the league from ~2000 to 2007.

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Old
10-31-2011, 10:34 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by warmplate View Post
Really... I'm not being biased but he's definitely top 5 if not top 3 in my books. The guy had the 2nd best stats in the league, there are several other goalies who have a larger cap hit then him and he beat all of them too. Has 3 three vezina nomination (Beaten twice by two phenomenal Brodeur seasons and one record breaking Thomas season)

Thomas
Lundqvist
Luongo
Rinne
Miller (Although he's only ever had 1 good season under 2.50GAA and above .915, you guys would get offended if I put the most overated goalie lower then 5th).
Except Miller has actually won the Vezina.

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10-31-2011, 10:39 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
2003-04?

Between him and Brodeur, he should've had the 2007 Vezina, and definitely the 2004 Vezina (and Hart).

All in all, Luongo probably has the best claim for best goalie in the league from ~2000 to 2007.
I assume you're one of those people that think save percentage is be-all-end-all of goaltending and that nothing else matters at all?

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Old
10-31-2011, 10:40 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I assume you're one of those people that think save percentage is be-all-end-all of goaltending and that nothing else matters at all?
There are other considerations, yes, but I'd say the rate at which one makes saves is a pretty damn good measure of goaltender performance.

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10-31-2011, 10:43 PM
  #55
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Maybe it is becaue I am a Hawks fan and see Luongo at his worst more often then not

He is pretty much the same goalie he has always been

Average glove and when his confidence is shaken he plays deep in net and allows brutal goals

He is inconsistant ,, Goes long stretches of great play then falls into stretches of horrid play

He is what he is

A flawed top 10 goalie who you are never sure if he will be amazing or brutal

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10-31-2011, 10:49 PM
  #56
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Another interesting tidbit is that Luongo played best on weaker teams. Aka Florida, and his best year on the Canucks was when they had garbage offence.

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10-31-2011, 10:50 PM
  #57
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many things stand out to me that have seen small if not zero mention ITT.

1. his play in huge situations
game 7 against chicago he was disturbingly good. his save on sharp in overtime was the difference between first-round exit and stanley cup final.

canucks vs sharks when canucks can close it out; one of the finest double-overtime performances i've ever seen.

sets the stage with two goals in two home wins in the stanley cup final, AND a scoreless first period performance on the road for game three. then a shutout in game 5.

2. his lack of a statistical drop
he's a goalie that saves just as many pucks as he did before. i don't understand what people are missing.

3. where the canucks would be without him
lolnowhere


anywho,


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Old
10-31-2011, 10:51 PM
  #58
AfroThunder396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
There are other considerations, yes, but I'd say the rate at which one makes saves is a pretty damn good measure of goaltender performance.
I like how cleverly you constructed your response as if to make it seem like I was the one being unreasonable.

Based on your other posts on this board, I'm under the impression you feel that goaltenders can be ranked solely on save percentage with no other stats or context.

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10-31-2011, 11:06 PM
  #59
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It might be as much about perception as it is reality. His numbers aren't so different, but he does have that choke aura around him. Maybe he's one of those goalies who does better on an underdog team? Cujo was a bit like that. When you have to close out a series to win the cup, or when you have to shut the door in the gold medal game, the results matter. When you're carrying a team on your back into the playoffs, it's all gravy.

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:07 PM
  #60
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I believe decline started with 08-09 playoff series loss to Chicago Blackhawks.He lost next year too, and almost blew last year. Since than everybody started calling him 7uongo because he would give up 7 goals to Hawks. I blame Chicago for his regress, sad but true....

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:15 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Maybe it is becaue I am a Hawks fan and see Luongo at his worst more often then not

He is pretty much the same goalie he has always been

Average glove and when his confidence is shaken he plays deep in net and allows brutal goals

He is inconsistant ,, Goes long stretches of great play then falls into stretches of horrid play

He is what he is

A flawed top 10 goalie who you are never sure if he will be amazing or brutal
lol no he wasn't he use to be hands down the best goalie in the league, he was our team. His game has definitely taken a nose dive over the last few seasons.

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:19 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Except Miller has actually won the Vezina.
In the weakest goalie stats season in a long time. Not to mention Luongo has more achievements too and he's only been in the NHL for 1 more season.

Compared to previous Vezina winners, Miller's numbers weren't phenomenal... (2.22GAA, .929SA%) compared to Luongo this year who had (2.11GAA, .929SA%).

And its not like Buffalo couldn't score they still managed to score 235 goals and win their division.

I'm sorry but Miller is not worth as much money as he gets (3rd most expensive goalie who was in the #30's for stats last year) I don't see why he's so overrated.

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:22 PM
  #63
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lol no he wasn't he use to be hands down the best goalie in the league, he was our team. His game has definitely taken a nose dive over the last few seasons.
Uh in what way, he just had his best career last year? and was the second best goalie.

Not to mention did you not see this post on the 1st page...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Here's Luongo's ES Sv% from 2000-01 to 2010-11:

0.930
0.928
0.925
0.937
(lockout)
0.926
0.928 (first year with Canucks)
0.929
0.936
0.925
0.934

Really don't see any evidence of "decline."

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:28 PM
  #64
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I blame Willie Mitchell & Wellwood's fat a** for the start of Luongo's mental fragility. The Canucks were about to take a 3-1 series lead in the the 2009 playoffs before slick Willie goes and does this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AImhii0KpG4&t=2m25s

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:39 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Come on, his goaltending was terrible when they had that 3-2 lead in the series.
Everyone under estimates the influence that Hamhuis has on our defence and, consequently, goaltending.
I would love for someone to gather some stats of Hamhuis's influence on goaltending (games he's played vs when he's out).

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10-31-2011, 11:45 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
I like how cleverly you constructed your response as if to make it seem like I was the one being unreasonable.

Based on your other posts on this board, I'm under the impression you feel that goaltenders can be ranked solely on save percentage with no other stats or context.
Save percentage is not the be all end all, but when there is such a discrepancy it has to be questioned how he didn't win the Vezina.

Luongo set a record with the most shots against in a single season with 2475. He was peppered with almost 35 shots per game on his way to also setting the record for most saves in a single season.

In 72 games Luongo posted a 0.931 save percentage, allowing 172 goals with a 2.43 goals against average.

Compare this to Brodeur's 0.917 save percentage allowing 154 goals and a 2.03 goals against average.

Luongo only let in 18 more goals on 630 more shots on a Florida team that finished near the bottom of the league.

Florida finished 23rd overall in goals against that year. The Devils finished 1st overall with a stingy 164 goals against (2 goals per game) back stopped by two hall of fame defensemen in Niedermayer and Stevens.

Statistically speaking, Brodeur winning the Vezina that year was an absolute farce.

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10-31-2011, 11:52 PM
  #67
John Swartzwelder
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He hasnt been the same (stylistically at least) since his groin injury

and also he should have won the vezina and hart in 2004

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10-31-2011, 11:52 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
By the way, if you're not in the mood to read, I feel the videos are the most important part of what I have to say. They highlight was Roberto was capable of before. In summary, Roberto has worsened since he joined the team. He is now playing a style that is counter-intuitive to everything he has learned throughout his life.

The changes are so drastic that they might as well have been two different players. One was a clutch superstar, the other is an inconsistent mess. It's sad to see what has happened to him.
If you want my input - I believe he is weak mentally.

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Old
10-31-2011, 11:55 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Everyone under estimates the influence that Hamhuis has on our defence and, consequently, goaltending.
I would love for someone to gather some stats of Hamhuis's influence on goaltending (games he's played vs when he's out).
I forget, but didn't the Canucks score a total of 1 total goal for games 6 & 7?

Luongo failed?!?

Um, what about the 'mvp' Sedins? Or naked Kesler?

With that offense, it was literally impossible for Luongo to close out that series.

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Old
11-01-2011, 12:06 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by John Swartzwelder View Post
He hasnt been the same (stylistically at least) since his groin injury
Finally someone mentions this. That and his odd new inability to catch pucks.

But as others have alluded to, his style of play has changed drastically since he first came to Vancouver. He would challenge shooters sometimes to the point where it looked silly how far out he was. He had such confidence back then.

Something people arent mentioning much is the style change Vancouver has made in terms of play. It is a very goalie unfriendly system, especially for a goalie who challenges as much as Luongo used to. I don't think there is a team in the league that pinches and activates their D more than Vancouver does. Sure its excellent for offence, but when it doesn't work it gives very high quality scoring chances up. Vancouver tends to have possession of the puck a lot , so he's not getting a lot of work...but the work he does get is a lot harder than it used to be.

He used to be able to worry solely about the first shot, forget any tap ins or rebounds.

A goalie like Thomas would also get ventilated playing behind the style Vancouver employs. It's why I think Schneider fits this system better than Luongo does, and thats not saying Luongo is a bad goaltender. Luongo would be a stud again on a defensive minded team ( and there are tons out there), but he's had to overhaul his game, and is playing way too deep in his net for my liking.

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Old
11-01-2011, 12:29 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by warmplate View Post
Uh in what way, he just had his best career last year? and was the second best goalie.

Not to mention did you not see this post on the 1st page.
Well there's a big difference. Last year he played on the best regular season team in the league ... we dominated in every statistical category. When Luongo first joined us in 06-07 he won 47 frikin games and played 76 games that season on a far worse Canucks team. Not to mention his 03-04 year on the Panthers where he had a .931% despite almost having twice as many losses as wins. Just because he had his best SV% last year doesn't mean it was his best year.

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Old
11-01-2011, 12:50 AM
  #72
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I laugh at the people who bring up statistics to support the moronic argument that he was just as good last year as he's been in previous years. If you even watched a quarter of the 2007 season you would he was in another mindset. We were 3rd in the conference but we were among the bottom in goals for. Luongo held the fort every night to propel us to the playoffs. His average save % came from playing for a garbage team. Anyone who watched the playoffs series against Dallas in 07 would have known how Luongo completely took over the series. Words can not describe how angry I feel when people just assume Luongo has been this streaky way since he arrived in Vancouver.

I still remember before every game that season they would show interviews asking the opposing players what their goals were for each game. And they always answered the same, we have to find a way to solve Luongo. Compliments came pouring out of their a**. I have never seen him get the same respect he did back then.

Stats are a good measurement for the forwards and Dmen because they control the flow of the game, but you have observe goalies actually playing to determine how good they are.

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11-01-2011, 12:59 AM
  #73
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The thing with Luongo is that he has been known to be able to win a game for his team but also to lose a game for his team. There were about 5-6 key games in the 2011 playoffs that Luongo more or less tanked early and gave his team no chance to win. There were also 5-6 games where he only let in a goal or less and virtually won the game for his team.

He is great but I question his consistency in important games. Great goalies are known for a) making the big save when needed, but perhaps more importanly b) not letting in a low chance shot that deflates the teams confidence.

I'm also not sure if he has the mental toughness of guys like Roy, Hasek, Belfour, etc. When he lets in a weak goal even people in the nosebleeds can notice the look of dread in his eyes. There seems to be a bit of a mental issue to his game as well.

All in all Luongo is a great goalie but he has some flaws, which throughout his career (not always, but often) have had a tendency to show up in the biggest games.

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Old
11-01-2011, 01:14 AM
  #74
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he's just not the same goalie anymore like in 06/07. flashing the glove hand on numerous occasions. challeninging the shooters. groin injury that happened a couple years back in an afternoon tilt with the penguins. the hawks inside his head for 2 straight years. just throw the playoffs out the door. his inconsistency day in and day out. he plays two different styles. agreesively in the past. and fast forward to the future he's deeper in his crease.

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Old
11-01-2011, 01:22 AM
  #75
Christina Woloski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
As a Canucks fan, I have been forced to witness a gradual decline in Roberto's game. It hasn't at all been evident to many fans that his game has changed just because of how much time has passed. To find out more, I dug up many clips from the NHL archives to showcase what Roberto used to be known for -- clutch goaltending night after night.

Roberto has changed. What we have seen these past few years has been different from what we first saw in his first season with the team. He used to challenge, play the angles, and react with such speed that shooters would be left bewildered at not having scored. Roberto Luongo, throughout his days as a Panther and when he first joined the Canucks, was a real star that teams could only dream of having. Gradually, his style has morphed into something completely different, something we have all complained about. He falls flat on his face now, resorts to flopping in dire moments, and rarely challenges. His flashy glove hand has disappeared, and his lateral movement has slowed. That confidence has vanished.

Roberto's most dominant year was his first year with this team. He carried the team into the playoffs in 2006-07. The team lacked any offense, and resorted to a stingy defensive system. Roberto, night after night, made sure it was always a one-goal game. In fact, throughout that season we were known for one-goal leads with low scores and terrific goaltending that could single-handedly win games for our offensively-challenged team.

He seems to have lost the ability to single-handedly win games. He has lost that ability to stare down his opponent and instill fear into the eyes of the shooter. Something has changed. He isn't the same goalie, whether it's due to a gradual change in style, a different mental approach, or a combination of such factors. The players in front of him have changed as well, and his top two defensemen from that first season have been gone for a few years now. I don't think anybody could question Mattias Ohlund or Willie Mitchell when they were Canucks.

Things never stay the same. Roberto has worsened since he first joined the team, though the roster in front of him has improved tremendously as well, counterbalancing any signs of deterioration in his game. He was aggressive and daring. Now he falls flat on his face, stomach-first, in every desperate situation. No longer do we see any spectacular lunging, side-to-side lateral movement or pad-stacking.

I support Luongo, but I hope he reaches this level of dominance once again. Right now, that's not the Luongo we have. What we truly miss is the Roberto who clearly was the league MVP of 2006-07, and one of the best players every night in the playoffs. He was consistent, spectacular, and fearsome to the opposition.

He was the hero every night.

I looked through various archives to find footage of Roberto from his first season with this team. Just look at the way he made his saves-- he looked nothing like the goalie he is now. His lateral movement was excellent. He was bold and courageous. He was flashy, confident, determined to fight for the puck and never give up. He was never intimidated, and always calm and cool. That's the goalie Canucks fans want to see, not this new Luongo.

*I put these videos together today to illustrate my point. I have compiled many saves, as well as a piece from his first season about Grant Fuhr's influence, into this one piece of evidence. Observe his positioning and the way he makes his saves. Compare his style then to the style you see today.



And this one showcases how amazing he could be during the playoffs.
He was the sole reason we defeated the Dallas Stars, and he kept us in the Ducks series despite the lack of team scoring (Jeff Cowan scored the only goal in each of the first two games!). Roberto was a clutch playoff performer and this video makes that clear.



I personally want the old Roberto back, and I'll speak for others when I say the Roberto we have seen these past few years is not the same goalie we unanimously believed in. There was once a time when we all had faith in him. Roberto Luongo's style has been completely overhauled, though, and I'm not sure I like it. What we saw in the third period on Saturday was a flash of his former self, snapping the glove out in spectacular fashion with incredible reflex, robbing Alex Ovechkin. I wish I could say that Luongo would be the one we will see in the coming months. I believe I'm not alone when I say he is nothing like his former self, though.

Roberto's claim to fame came with the old style of his. He rose to the top and became a superstar with such acrobatic and aggressive goaltending. He was taught to be aggressive, acrobatic and reactive all his life. He was mentored by Francois Allaire and shined as a star in the earlier half of his career. He relied on a combination of instinct and technique, and pulled through even when the situation looked grim. His new style is nothing like what he was known for in the past -- and it's killing his reputation and performance.

As hockey fans, we like goaltenders who make important, spectacular saves often. He used to do that, and people used to acknowledge that he was one of the best, if not the best, goaltender in the league. Nowadays, it's rare to see any praise, and for good reason.

The Roberto Luongo of old is seemingly gone, and unless he reverts to the style he is most comfortable with, we will only continue to see a decline. Simply comparing the two styles, I can safely say the Roberto Luongo playing now is nothing like the Roberto Luongo of five years ago.
Often the goaltender that makes that "fantastic save" are kicking out rebounds or have a team in front that forces them to do so. Luongo kicks rebounds off to ****ing Narnia, behind the goal line.

I think that everything you've just wrote deserves the award for the most verbose post ever but as well as writing sooo much without backing up your argument with ANY facts but 95% personal feeling and 5% contextual videos.


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