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2014 - U.S. Roster Discussion

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Old
11-02-2012, 07:28 AM
  #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Joe Pavelski is an ELITE defensive forward who chips in on offense. The chance he doesn't make the team is the chance that Galchenyuk wins a Selke next season.

That said, our forward group is still better.

From last go around we lost Drury and Langenbrunner but gained more mature versions of Kyle Okposo and most importantly Max Pacioretty.
You have the mentality that we were so close in 2010 so all we have to do is get a little better, if that's what we are going to do we won't even medal. We need to create the best team for 2014. Pavelski(and Erik Johnson) are not the best we have to offer.

BTW Kesler, Parise, Brown, Oshie, Callahan and Backes are all better defensively than Pavelski.


Last edited by PhillyBluesFan: 11-02-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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11-02-2012, 07:50 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I have a few problems with his posts on Pavelski: 1) He underestimates Joe's talent; 2) He overestimates the quantity and/or quality of his competitors for center; and 3) He acts as if a team with Pavelski doesn't stand a chance to compete for Gold.
I'll defend my position

1)Pavelski is a good versatile #2 center on a middle tier NHL playoff team.
2)Kesler, Backes, Oshie, Statsny and potentially Stepan(if he continues to progress at the same rate) are all better. Not to mention Parise or Kane who may or may not play center.
3)Of course we'll still stand a decent chance with Pavelski. Now Bylsma being head coach is a deal breaker.

Pavelski(and E.Johnson) represent a losing mentality of "oh we got so close so all we need to do is get a little better". Rather than putting our best foot forward.

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11-02-2012, 07:59 AM
  #528
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I think Joe P would be an asset on the big ice.

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11-02-2012, 08:05 AM
  #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
I think Joe P would be an asset on the big ice.
More so than Backes Kesler Oshie or Statsny?

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11-02-2012, 09:23 AM
  #530
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Yes I know he played but what's he done?

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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
He last played for the US at the World Championship's in 2010 and 2009.

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11-02-2012, 09:45 AM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Pavelski(and E.Johnson) represent a losing mentality of "oh we got so close so all we need to do is get a little better". Rather than putting our best foot forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Pavelski(and Erik Johnson) are not the best we have to offer.
Respectfully, I believe you're wrong about both players.

Pavelski looks to be no worse than 13th forward because of his resourcefulness in being able to play all aspects of the team be it Wing, Center, PK, PP, shutdown, energy or scoring. I personally also like his clutch-factor.

Erik Johnson is just the partner Jack needs in order to make his offensive game explode on the international level. With his skating ability and strong defensive game he can easily lead the breakout with a rush up the ice or a solid first pass while handling the defensive load as JJ pinches up to be a 4th forward occasionally.

If EJ and Pavelski are not on the team, then we've had some serious growth within 2 years of US players and/or they've suffered some bad injuries. Both are also young enough to play in the next two Olympics, something every GM will take into consideration when building the roster in the attempt to put together a team that can develop chemistry together for now and the future.

If we can do better than them, name the players that are clearly ahead of both.

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11-02-2012, 09:53 AM
  #532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
Yes I know he played but what's he done?
I was wondering the same thing as well. I would rather see guys like Stepan, Kreider, Palmieri, Atkinson, and Galchenyuk fill out that final roster spot than Okposo. I respect the fact that Okposo has played in three world championship for the U.S. and also his NHL team, the Islanders aren't the greatest team in the NHL but I think we have better options than Okposo to fill out that final roster spot.

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11-02-2012, 10:18 AM
  #533
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Going into Sochi i'd take that Kreider kid over Okposo any day of the week.




Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers28giroux View Post
I was wondering the same thing as well. I would rather see guys like Stepan, Kreider, Palmieri, Atkinson, and Galchenyuk fill out that final roster spot than Okposo. I respect the fact that Okposo has played in three world championship for the U.S. and also his NHL team, the Islanders aren't the greatest team in the NHL but I think we have better options than Okposo to fill out that final roster spot.

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11-02-2012, 10:36 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
Yes I know he played but what's he done?
If you knew then I'm not sure why you asked. He had 5 points in 15 games.

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11-02-2012, 12:02 PM
  #535
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Also, Pavelski is equally skilled at right wing and center. If you can find eight American forwards better than him, be my guest.

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11-02-2012, 12:32 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
You have the mentality that we were so close in 2010 so all we have to do is get a little better, if that's what we are going to do we won't even medal. We need to create the best team for 2014. Pavelski(and Erik Johnson) are not the best we have to offer.

BTW Kesler, Parise, Brown, Oshie, Callahan and Backes are all better defensively than Pavelski.

By the way, Pavelski played tougher minutes with better outcomes than all of those players. Of those players last year only Oshie, Callahan and Backes were in the same class as Pavelski in terms of turning driving possession away from their own end. Kesler was hurt most of the year so he gets a pass. Callahan and Parise are not centers, so they don't really count anyway. Brown is simply not that good of a defensive player to be mentioned in this class of players.

The only forwards who were better defensive than Pavelski last season were Nate Thompson and Pat Dwyer. Those two however don't provide near enough offense as Pavelski.

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11-02-2012, 12:34 PM
  #537
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Here is my vision for the team

Parise-Kesler-Ryan (2nd scariest line in Sochi)

Kessel-Statsny-Kane(Statsny would have to prove he's back to his 07-10 form) OR Pominville-Kane-Kessel OR Kessel-Stepan-Kane(this would only happen if Stepan takes a big step forward but he has the potential)

Brown-Backes-Callahan (#1 scariest line in Sochi)

Pacioretty-Oshie-Pominville (a more offensive 4th line, assuming Pominville isn't on the 2nd line) OR Kreider-Stepan-Oshie (a more defensive 4th line assuming Pominville is on the 2nd line)

Byfugien(PP specialist) OR Stepan OR Kreider OR Pacioretty

McDonagh-Yandle
Suter-Shattenkirk
Scuderi-Fowler OR Scuderi-J.Johnson
Byfuglien
(PP specialist) OR Carlson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Respectfully, I believe you're wrong about both players.

Pavelski looks to be no worse than 13th forward because of his resourcefulness in being able to play all aspects of the team be it Wing, Center, PK, PP, shutdown, energy or scoring. I personally also like his clutch-factor.
Here is the way I see it Backes would center an ultra physical and defensive line with Brown and Callahan. Kesler would center a line with Ryan and Parise. Kane and Kessel are your two best If Statsny continues to regress then you move Kane to center. So that leaves the 4th line I just think Oshie brings all the same versatility and is an absolute stud on the penalty kill, not to mention is younger and should be smack in the middle of his prime 2 years from now. Stepan is the wild card, who knows he might be the best US center in 2 years or he might not be ready to be on the team at all its all about how rapidly he progresses.

I supposed maybe you could play him on the 4th line wing if for whatever reason Pacioretty or Kreider haven't progressed.

Quote:
Erik Johnson is just the partner Jack needs in order to make his offensive game explode on the international level. With his skating ability and strong defensive game he can easily lead the breakout with a rush up the ice or a solid first pass while handling the defensive load as JJ pinches up to be a 4th forward occasionally.
You have 3 balanced lines and the 3 defensive orientated defensmen Suter, McDonagh and Scuderi are all better defensively, so is Carlson

Quote:
If EJ and Pavelski are not on the team, then we've had some serious growth within 2 years of US players
I think the young guys: Pacioretty, Fowler, Oshie, Shattenkirk and Carlson already bring more to the table than EJ and Pavelski. And the gap will only grow 2 years from now as they progress.


Last edited by PhillyBluesFan: 11-02-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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11-02-2012, 01:24 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Here is my vision for the team
Mine was posted before... but I disagree on Stastny + Kane, I don't see the two meshing well at all. You're playing too many people out of their positions (Kessel at LW and Ryan at RW, Oshie at C, possibly Kane at C, etc) and Pacioretty should definitely be on a line with Stastny.

Pominville brings less to the table than Pavelski if he's not on a scoring line in my opinion, we really don't need more playmaking types either. I'd also take the experience Pavelski brings (and again his clutch play should not be ignored) over younger options like Stepan unless they make major improvements.

Quote:
Kane and Kessel are your two best If Statsny continues to regress then you move Kane to center
Stastny isn't regressing and Kane shouldn't be at center.

Quote:
You have 3 balanced lines and the 3 defensive orientated defensmen Suter, McDonagh and Scuderi are all better defensively, so is Carlson
EJ is most definitely better defensively than Scuderi and Carlson. McDonagh had one good season and EJ still played great defensively himself. If his offense shines again within the next two years he is a lock, even if it doesn't his defensive game should more than make up for it when paired with someone like Yandle or JJ.

Quote:
I think the young guys: Pacioretty, Fowler, Oshie, Shattenkirk and Carlson already bring more to the table than EJ and Pavelski. And the gap will only grow 2 years from now as they progress.
Pacioretty, I agree. Oshie is a wash imo, he can't play center like Pavelski can but is a bit better of a spark plug type. EJ is definitely better than Shattenkirk and Carlson.

JJ and EJ will both be on the team, there's no way they won't barring something major happening between now and then.

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11-02-2012, 01:26 PM
  #539
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Scuderi is a better defender than Johnson, but Johnson skates so much better than Scuderi that it makes it impossible to imagine picking Scuderi for a big ice tournament.

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11-02-2012, 01:52 PM
  #540
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Yeah, you basically need to find a spot on your roster for Pavelski - he's certainly somewhere in your top 13 forwards. He's versatile enough - he plays center and can play wing, kills penalties, plays on the PP, takes and wins faceoffs, strong defensively and offensively, reputation as a clutch performer and someone who raises his game in the playoffs - that you essentially can't (or shouldn't) leave him off the team. He's basically the American version of Jonathan Toews.

I'm genuinely interested to see how a Backes-Callahan-Brown line performs, as physical play becomes much less important on the international ice surface. They'll at least be solid defensively, but it'll be interesting to see how they translate their game from the NHL to the international ice.

Finally, as a Canadian I'd definitely love to see Burke take Scuderi over EJ. Orpik and Komisarek too.

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11-02-2012, 03:00 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Mine was posted before... but I disagree on Stastny + Kane, I don't see the two meshing well at all. You're playing too many people out of their positions (Kessel at LW and Ryan at RW, Oshie at C, possibly Kane at C, etc) and Pacioretty should definitely be on a line with Stastny.
Why wouldn't Stastny + Kessel + Kane work they all have the nessasary offensive acumen, its just a matter of if Stastny can regain his form.

As for the positions Oshie played center most of last year. Kessel and Ryan shouldn't have any trouble adapting to playing on a different side.

Quote:
Pominville brings less to the table than Pavelski if he's not on a scoring line in my opinion, we really don't need more playmaking types either. I'd also take the experience Pavelski brings (and again his clutch play should not be ignored) over younger options like Stepan unless they make major improvements.
Pominville can bring the added scoring punch to a 4th line and is perfect on a scoring line with Kessel.

Quote:
Stastny isn't regressing and Kane shouldn't be at center.
Stastny has clearly regressed over the past 2 seasons. Ideally Stastny would center that line but Kane is more than capable

Quote:
EJ is most definitely better defensively than Scuderi and Carlson
As a Blues fan I have seen EJ play hundreds of times and while he is solid defensively he's definitely not better than Scuderi and if Carlson hasn't surpassed him yet he'll definitely be passed him in 2 years

Quote:
McDonagh had one good season and EJ still played great defensively himself. If his offense shines again within the next two years he is a lock, even if it doesn't his defensive game should more than make up for it when paired with someone like Yandle or JJ.
McDonagh's 1 good season is so much better than any season EJ's ever produced.

Quote:
Pacioretty, I agree. Oshie is a wash imo, he can't play center like Pavelski can but is a bit better of a spark plug type. EJ is definitely better than Shattenkirk and Carlson.
Oshie can play center just fine and is one of the most dynamic penalty killing forwards there is. Shattenkirk is a little better now and will probable be waaaaay better in 2 years same goes for Carlson

Quote:
JJ and EJ will both be on the team, there's no way they won't barring something major happening between now and then.
They may end up on the team because I get the feeling that Burke will have the losing mentality I talked about before.

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11-02-2012, 06:45 PM
  #542
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We know Stastny and Kane don't play we'll together because they didn't in Vancouver. Both like to possess and distribute the puck.

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11-03-2012, 12:35 AM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Here is my vision for the team

Parise-Kesler-Ryan (2nd scariest line in Sochi)

Brown-Backes-Callahan (#1 scariest line in Sochi)
Hi PBF,

Do you mean "scariest" American line or scariest lines relative to all teams?

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11-03-2012, 01:01 AM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Mine was posted before... but I disagree on Stastny + Kane, I don't see the two meshing well at all. You're playing too many people out of their positions (Kessel at LW and Ryan at RW, Oshie at C, possibly Kane at C, etc) and Pacioretty should definitely be on a line with Stastny.
Ryan's natural position is RW, so moving him to the other side wouldn't be a problem.

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11-03-2012, 06:34 AM
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Hi PBF,

Do you mean "scariest" American line or scariest lines relative to all teams?
All teams. Canada could put out a somewhat comparable line but they won't because its not their strength.

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11-03-2012, 09:11 AM
  #546
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Oh Wow!!

5 points in 15 games.

I'll never doubt you again, it's so patently clear he has a free ride onto your next Hockey representative.

can you do me a favour and answer me this question?

Will it be You or Brian old dusty Irishman picking this team?

I need to Know.

The quicker i get that answer the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
If you knew then I'm not sure why you asked. He had 5 points in 15 games.


Last edited by espo*: 11-03-2012 at 09:18 AM.
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11-03-2012, 10:05 AM
  #547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
All teams. Canada could put out a somewhat comparable line but they won't because its not their strength.
Hi PBF,

I guess I need a better definition of "scary" but, in Sochi, I don't think offensive production with be the U.S.'s strong suit.

I guess we will see.


Last edited by OttawaRoughRiderFan: 11-03-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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11-03-2012, 03:15 PM
  #548
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Oshie is not a center. He spent pretty much the entire season at RW next to Backes, and that's where he will be next season as well.

I think these guys are all pretty much locks for the team:

Defensemen: Suter, Yandle, McDonagh, J. Johnson, E. Johnson

Forwards: Parise, Kesler, Kane, Ryan, Stastny, Kessel, Backes, Brown, Pavelski, Callahan, Pacioretty

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11-03-2012, 04:34 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
You have the mentality that we were so close in 2010 so all we have to do is get a little better, if that's what we are going to do we won't even medal. We need to create the best team for 2014. Pavelski(and Erik Johnson) are not the best we have to offer.

BTW Kesler, Parise, Brown, Oshie, Callahan and Backes are all better defensively than Pavelski.
Any proof to you thinking if Team USA plays as well as they did in 2010 they won't even medal? I understand you don't want to just be satisfied with what we have but you've yet to make any point against why Pavelski wouldn't still be there.

I do, however, tend to agree with you on Erik Johnson. He has a heck of a lot more competition and he'll need to get better to keep pace and in play for the squad. The talent level is there but the consistent assertion of his talent isn't.

Debatable on some of your choices for being better defensively than Pavelski but the real point is of those players you listed only Kesler and Backes are centers and they'd both be on the team with Pavelski as well so that's a bit irrelevant at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
I'll defend my position

1)Pavelski is a good versatile #2 center on a middle tier NHL playoff team.
2)Kesler, Backes, Oshie, Statsny and potentially Stepan(if he continues to progress at the same rate) are all better. Not to mention Parise or Kane who may or may not play center.
3)Of course we'll still stand a decent chance with Pavelski. Now Bylsma being head coach is a deal breaker.

Pavelski(and E.Johnson) represent a losing mentality of "oh we got so close so all we need to do is get a little better". Rather than putting our best foot forward.
1) None of the centers you've listed as preferred candidates (the ones that are actually centers) are clear #1 centers on their high end playoff teams. So how is this only a knock on Pavelski?

2) For starters, Oshie is NOT a center. I'm an Oshie fan and I think he'd bring a nice dynamic to the team in a 4th line/extra role but he's not a center and thus Pavelski is not one of his main competitors for a roster spot. Oshie did take a whopping 53 face-offs last year though, a stat I'm sure is to impress the Team USA brass when picking their roster.

Kesler and Backes will both be on the team. They bring some different elements than Pavelski but Joe is most definitely in their league.

Why do you insist on saying Pavelski plays for a "middle tier NHL playoff team" as a #2 center as if that's the be-all-end-all? Are you giving Stastny a break just because he plays on a really bad team and doesn't play on a team with Joe Thornton? I'm interested to see that explained. Also, the Blues and Rangers haven't done anything more than the Sharks either so why are they conveniently not considered "middle tier NHL playoff team[s]?"

And there's no need to mention Parise or Kane because Parise (like Oshie) is not a center and neither is Kane for Team USA despite the Chicago experiment last year. Also, even if we count these guys at center then it really won't help your argument because Pavelski would still be on the team at wing since you're creating voids at wing by counting our top wingers as centers just to assist your argument.

3) First you said we won't medal. Now we'd still stand a chance with Pavelski? Which is it?

And I'm interested on why you're so down on Bylsma. If Ron Wilson can pull it off, I'd think we should be confident in most of our options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Here is my vision for the team

Parise-Kesler-Ryan (2nd scariest line in Sochi)

Kessel-Statsny-Kane(Statsny would have to prove he's back to his 07-10 form) OR Pominville-Kane-Kessel OR Kessel-Stepan-Kane(this would only happen if Stepan takes a big step forward but he has the potential)

Brown-Backes-Callahan (#1 scariest line in Sochi)

Pacioretty-Oshie-Pominville (a more offensive 4th line, assuming Pominville isn't on the 2nd line) OR Kreider-Stepan-Oshie (a more defensive 4th line assuming Pominville is on the 2nd line)

Byfugien(PP specialist) OR Stepan OR Kreider OR Pacioretty
That's great that you're giving Stepan and Stastny the benefit of doubt for improvement to fit your argument. Kane won't be a center for us and Oshie is not a center for anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
I think the young guys: Pacioretty, Fowler, Oshie, Shattenkirk and Carlson already bring more to the table than EJ and Pavelski. And the gap will only grow 2 years from now as they progress.
What do Pacioretty and Oshie (wingers) have to do with Pavelski (center) making the team?

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Last edited by William H Bonney: 11-03-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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11-03-2012, 08:23 PM
  #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
Oh Wow!!

5 points in 15 games.

I'll never doubt you again, it's so patently clear he has a free ride onto your next Hockey representative.

can you do me a favour and answer me this question?

Will it be You or Brian old dusty Irishman picking this team?

I need to Know.

The quicker i get that answer the better.
You're a strange fellow.

You asked a very simple question, that you probably could have looked up yourself, and got an answer. I don't know why this upset you so much but oh well.

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